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mansasulu
997 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 19:34:14
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| Tamsier when and where have I condoned Terrorism and Violence of any nature here. Put it up or shut up. Your problem is that you have preconceived ideas and you are trying to find all kinds of excuses and baseless arguments to fit into those preconceived ideas. Your railings about Islam will not tale u any where. If you are truely serious about your propaganda or yearn for the return of continously dying pagan believes make it you fulltime occupation. I am proud that Islam reached me and no amount of your wailings will take that from me. ALLAHU AKBAR! |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 21:56:54
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dalton writes..
If you have one, a religion I mean, and it is good for you...follow that and leave that of others alone, for goodness and heaven sake. In surah 109, the verse said "To you be you religion; and to me, mine."
happy new year, brother.
now....
these lines of yours ought to be the adopted mantra of all religious people , of any sort, anywhere on the planet.
i had religion once, but gave it up, because the people who taught me spouted forth blind, bigoted rubbish, to make sure that i turned out like themselves.
How very wrong they were.,
I respect any religious people who can devote their lives to a god and spend vast swathes of their lives praying to an invisible non-entity that cannot ever be proven to exist.
Good luck to them and their strengths, for i certainly cannot be so strong without evidence..a scientist, i am afraid.
But, and here's the but, How do you reconcile the purist idea of Islam as a progressive religion with the more overt appearance of the religion, as practised by so many, where violence, submission, hatred and oppression are the order of the day.
Yes, maybe 1 billion are muslims, but a lot of them , a huge swathe of them, hate gays, jews and others, wish to chop off hands and heads in football stadia, sanction the murder of raped girls by their own parents and brothers to save face etc etc etc?
this is not progressive!
I am aware that most decent folk who are muslim want to try and evolve with the world as it does so, but the nutters are winning....we have said before, and i am one of them, if Islam is to co-exist, then it must put its own house in order.it is not there to take over the world.
This week the times reported that a Mosque was reported by the council of british muslims to the Home Office for inviting 2 lunatic preachers over to disperse their rabid antisemitic views on a public platform in this country. i believe they were barred.
This is the only way the vast majority of Muslims will ever remain untarred with the same brush....
maybe we will look back in years and say "phew - that was a close thing"..alas i fear not.
Surah 109..... written for the many, practised by the few?
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Edited by - lurker on 31 Dec 2009 22:03:42 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 23:09:57
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Lurker
quote:
But, and here's the but, How do you reconcile the purist idea of Islam as a progressive religion with the more overt appearance of the religion, as practised by so many, where violence, submission, hatred and oppression are the order of the day.
Yes, maybe 1 billion are muslims, but a lot of them , a huge swathe of them, hate gays, jews and others, wish to chop off hands and heads in football stadia, sanction the murder of raped girls by their own parents and brothers to save face etc etc etc?
You exaggerate unfairly. Which countries have you been to experience these? Failed state Somalia where there is no effective Government? Muslims are hated in your own continent too. God sake, 6 Million Jews have been murdered in Europe not long ago. I assumed you been to Gambia. In Turkey and Indonesia, homosexuality is so visible and well accepted. I was in Bosnia, Albania my homeland never seen these. When I grow up in Turkey, never seen any of these! Neither in Indonesia! In Gambia, Senegal, and other West Africa, I have never witness any Islamic fanatics acting violently. I mean you said violence and oppression is daily. I mean I must have lived in different planet. I mean you are picking up extreme examples, I am not denying it is happening but that is only small minority. Islam hating jews! Stop this. Anti-Semitism is Christian concept. Muslims are anti-Israeli. Israel occupies the palestine and holy city KUDUS. Check the UN. Millions of Muslims are forced to leave their country. That is all about Israel. You are confused with anti-semitism and anti-israel. It is totally different concept. Tell me which country has a chopping hand practice? You are unfairly associating isolated instances with the 1.5 Billion Muslim around the world. Also you are not a moral authority to set a standard for Islam to comply in order to be ‘progressive’. Have you been to Jamaica? Gays bashing is public. Have you listen to the lyrics? Have you listen Evangalists?
One last question! Seem like you liked. In surah 109, the verse said "To you be you religion; and to me, mine." And I assume you choose to be neutral as your religion. Not Islam. So why is it your duty to post about critiques on Islam every so often? Let Muslims destroy themselves. But most important, do you realize how disturbing 'one' questions my faith and insult every so often.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 01 Jan 2010 01:00:10 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2010 : 16:49:35
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Tamsier when and where have I condoned Terrorism and Violence of any nature here. Put it up or shut up. Your problem is that you have preconceived ideas and you are trying to find all kinds of excuses and baseless arguments to fit into those preconceived ideas. Your railings about Islam will not tale u any where. If you are truely serious about your propaganda or yearn for the return of continously dying pagan believes make it you fulltime occupation. I am proud that Islam reached me and no amount of your wailings will take that from me. ALLAHU AKBAR!
Mansasulu,
These are my exact words:
'I have heard with my ears muslim friends of mine condone or tried to justify Islamic terrorism. I have even seen this here on Bantaba by certain people e.g. Mansasulu not to forget the animals that organise demonstrations.'
1. Give my time I will search Bantaba postings and link them here.
2. I have no preconceived ideas. What I have stated are accepted facts whether you like to hear them or not.
I do not need to find excuses when the islamic terrorists are still active and killing/ wishing to kill innocent people. What is it that you don't agree with?
3. I have no propaganda. The facts speaks volumes at least accept that. Islamic terrorist follow your religion [islam], they kill and mame, etc, etc, etc. In this case, the boy is Nigerian; African; a muslim; a terrorist indoctrinated by Arabs who gave him his training and he wanted to kill innocent people in the name of your religion and the Arabs whom he viewed receive a raw deal from the invasive West in Arab nations. It is islam which is involved in propaganda, just take a look at the Senegambian radio and television services [closer to home]. Your accusations have no merit. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2010 : 21:53:30
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| Whether Tamsier likes it or not Islam is growing. Despite all the propoganda and demonization agaist Islam. Muslims may be the poorest communities but still standing strong against any threat. Islam is the only one standing against western hegomany. This is a fact. Whether Tamsier likes it or not, Islam replaced the animism and more animists are joinning the ummet-i Islam. Whether Tamsier likes it or not, Islam is unversal religion that builds brotherhood from africa to asia. The future is Islam. The reason Tamsier is so angry, it does not accept the fact that his religion was disappearing from the earth. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 08:32:20
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| Dude put your links up and let all see. An apology will b quite appropriate if and when you cannot substansiate your allegations. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 10:36:29
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Turk it is precisely the attitude in your posting that makes people apprehensive about the Muslim faith. It's aim to 'expand',
'dominate' etc frightens people.
I have NO PROBLEM with people choosing their own faith, whatever that may be. I do have a problem with evangelism where people try to covert me or constantly tell me how wonderful their religion is.
People should be free to choose their own way in life, whilst respecting others point of view. If we all did this wouldn't the world be a more peaceful and compassionate place.
Marx believed that religion is the opiate of the people. It is no surprise then that religious zelots target poor, ill-educated people to convert.
I wish in 2010 that people would be more reflective, more questioning, less blindly following.
Whatever you believe in (One God or many or none)use your belief to guide you to lead a better life. Isn't that what religion is all about really? Social control and self improvement? The theory is that otherwise we would all behave like animals. I dont believe that. As I have previously posted I believe you can live a good moral life with NO GOD.   |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 11:07:09
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Bev
It is never my intension. It is just got heated with Tamsier. Personally, I am very liberal and do not involve with anyone's religion. And I do appreciate the moderate and liberal life style, and my religious experience is spiritual/individual. I am liberal secular. At the same time, my stand for Muslims is in the name of human rights. I strongly believe that Muslims are being discriminated and demonized unfairly. And I am sure you experience in Gambia, most majority muslims are just ordinary people who worry about bills, family and other daily struggle.
The reason Muslims in particular are restless now, or whatever the apprehensive you felt in my post due to the attitude towards Muslims last 20 years after the collapse of Soviet Empire. Muslims are became very reactionary. Muslims are being cornered especially in the media. It is a warfare. Basically west created a new enemy. Even 1970s, PLO movement against Israel was a socialist. Yasser Arafat and PLO was socialist/secular movement. Iran was secular under shah. Baas parties in Syria, Iraq and Egypy were leftist. Egypt was lead by a black african who had socialist ideas. Algeria was socialist. Turkey had strong leftist groups and the islamic party was only getting less than 5 % vote.
Whatever happened after soviet empire, West led by USA wanted to create an enemy. I do not expect you to understand the pshyc many muslims have. In England strong Pakistani or in Germany strong Turkish community were not fundamentalist before. The radicalization is a recent development in Islamic world. And it has a lot to do with the western aggression on Islamic World. You may not experience and understand the presure. The way ones looked at muslims, or when I introduce myself someone from Turkey, how body language and attitude change really disturbing. I do not expect you to understand the attitude towards Muslims, it is experience but many do feel presure by the attitude. How else can you explain the recent radicalization in Muslims world last 20 years?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 11:54:17
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Yes in Gambia most people I have met are very moderate Muslims.
You are right that if you havent walked in someones shoes it is difficult to understand how people experience life.
In the UK young Muslim men seem to be radicalised. How do we alter this? |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 17:12:53
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turk wrote..
"I mean I must have lived in different planet. I mean you are picking up extreme examples, I am not denying it is happening but that is only small minority. Islam hating jews! Stop this. Anti-Semitism is Christian concept. Muslims are anti-Israeli. Israel occupies the palestine and holy city KUDUS. Check the UN. Millions of Muslims are forced to leave their country. That is all about Israel. You are confused with anti-semitism and anti-israel. It is totally different concept. "
sorry, matey, you have to ask which planet you live on if you think it is not the madder muslims who confuse those two issues.
there was no israel years back, but there was antisemitism.
Ask a few of your less "moderate" chums whether they think a jew living in england is not an equal target as an Israeli.
Who you kidding?
by the way, as you got heated and overdid it with tamsier, i may have slightly exaggerated the level amongst Islam as a whole. so sorry for that.
and please stop trying to defend the nutters and their archaic , savage form of justice by spreading the blame onto jamaicans and others , most of whom probably do not go gay-bashing, just like most muslims do not do likewise.
it is on the internet if you wanna see the hand-chopping, the beheadings, the stonings etc. you are not stupid, so don't pretend to be.
We are not talking about jamaica or israel or the uk here. And their faults do not justify those of you and yours.
happy new year, buddy |
Edited by - lurker on 02 Jan 2010 17:15:36 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 20:22:08
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Lurker
Muslims issue with Jews have different social and historical elements than Western/christian. Jews are hated based on religious doctrine in Christianity basically Jesus was killed by jews. Also, nationalism in western world (see KKK usual hate) for jews well documented in the history see holocous and inqusition. Anti-semitism is Christian based. The issue of Muslims and Jews are started by the creation of Israel by the United Kingdom in 1948.
I am not blaming Jamaicans at all. And I am not denying homophobia existince in Muslims community at all. What I am saying is that anti-gays are not only within Muslims Community. Homophobia is global problem. It is everywhere. All of the world there are people anti-gays even in your country. Of course Jamaican's gay bashing, or Israel's racism or british nationalism, their fault is not justifying what has happening in the Muslim community. But the point is that homophobia, anti-semitism or hate violent are common problem in every community in the world just like Muslims and they are not any different from your community that has social problems too. Imagine today British has the same GDP per capital as Gambia. You see in Britain or europe when there is unemployement or other economic issues, nationalism against immigrants increase. Most radicalism social issues are within Muslim community requires social spending and focus. If Britain has the same GDP per capita as Gambia today the social issues like radicalism and violent would be much worse than it is now. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 21:02:44
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quote:
In the UK young Muslim men seem to be radicalised. How do we alter this?
Bev
I am not social scientist.
First of all, just like any ideology or religion. I admit Islam may inspire people to be fanatic. Just like a Christian fanatic’s violent act on pro-choice doctors, or Jews fanatics who assassinate Rabin, former prime minister of Israel. Or Irish IRA. Muslims too are human and of course they are potentially extremist as anyone else. At the same time, Muslims worry about bills, their family, education and health. Just like you.
To alter this, here is what I am asking. Recognize this: Muslims are potentially fundamentalist as much as anyone else. Not any more or not any less.
Muslims do have very different views on social issues but looks like, people do not have the tolerance level on Muslims as much as they do for other, for example, when it comes to football hooliganism, or youth in UK today. I mean I worked in London almost two years. Those youth acting like animals when they got drunk after midnight. Especially the ones inspire by the nationalism. It is biology. The hormones go crazy especially for men starting teenage years and go up to late 20s. I am not sure but youth, not only Muslims youth you have problem with British youth as well. They need to be focused on more. For example, there are more than 5 Million Muslims in Germany; they are not as bad as UK. They must be doing something different. One expect Germany would be worse, but the radicalism within youth is not as bad as UK in Germany.
As I repeated that before, I honestly believe, there is a hidden agenda in the western media or government to provoke Muslims. Because, trust me, whenever any terrorist act occurs by Muslims, Muslims are the one who suffer most. Muslims do not gain anything as society by those violent acts by radicals. It is like, some hawkish western politicians want more violent by Muslims so they can have better case against their hawkish foreign policy.
Cultural Imperialism: In the name of Globalization, west seem like to export their liberal ideals to other nations. Obviously there is a clash when local culture does not like some of the values.
Foreign Policy of your country! Brits are already reason for the establishment of Israel on the Palestine land. And your government, despite UN condemnation, attacked on Iraq with the USA. Lots of anxiety by Muslims is due to foreign policy of your country. I think British Foreign Policy is one of the most contributing factor. The world still did not find a solution for Israel and Palestine conflict.
I believe when Turkey get the EU membership, that will resolve lots of issues related to radicalism. We have a role to play to bridge west and Islamic world come together and I strongly believe that this will happen when Turks are part of EU.
Obviously, Muslims need to be more aware of their own problem too. This is very complex issue requires social, economic and political action.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 21:14:54
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Thanks for such a thoughtful and considered response.
It is not a simple problem with a simple solution.
Let's hope for the future generations we can find solutions to the political and religious problems we have. |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 00:13:46
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kobo, if you shared your knowledge and explained the purity, we would all be enlightened. unfortunately, it is not tamsier and his cohorts that you have to deal with first. it is the poisoners of your religion, from within your own religion, that you need to deal with first.
I have just watched ross kemp in Gaza.
How can you hope for peace when gazan 8 year olds would rather die than live, in the religious belief that paradise is better than what they could have now. that war brings war and peace brings peace, quoted by a 24 yr old intelligen t lawyer, who is about to suicide bomb israel. How can peace bring peace when you would rather use violence?
how can you get peace when you would rather die than live?
this is all based, according to these people shown , on their religious beliefs that they are commanded by god to defend their religion and country by any means. no mention of peace. just death, death, martyrdom and more death.
Unless. kobo, some of you theologians and scholars and leaders and pacifists and realists and pragmatists and humanists start to persuade your kids that life is more beautiful than death, you are all doomed,as are we all.
the middle east will never see peace.
mark my words.
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