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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2008 : 14:11:08
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Interpretations from holy quran and position of muslims would follow to clear all mis-conceptions gradually!
Point of observation Kayjatta on this statetement; "But there is a caveat here. Jesus cannot be tried in the court of Islam. There is a lack of jurisdiction."
Muslims belief that Jesus (P.B.H) was one of the greatest prophets and there is no indictment of Jesus (P.B.H) for blasphemy or any crime in court of Islam. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2008 : 15:14:13
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Kay, it is pertinent to this discussion that we remember that the first of the New Testamant, the gospel of matthew was written at least 50 years after the asencion of Jesus so one begs to ask the question: How can Jesus retract or correct statements attributed to him after his ascension to the heavens?
Secondly, many a times John 10:30 "I and my father are one." is quoted out of context and what a better way to fully understand that verse by posting the full contextual implication of the verse by reading it with verses that came earlier.
John 10:23-30 gives the exact meaning to what Jesus was reported to have said:
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."
It was indeed the Jews who claimed that Jesus makes a claim to be God. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are numerous instances in the bible where men are referred to as the "son of god." If we attribute that statement to all these instances God will have sons by the tons. That actual meaning of that statement 'son of god" is that such a person is a righteous being. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 06 Aug 2008 15:17:48 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 00:19:01
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| very interesting explanation mansasulu. the christains as kay stated take the verses to meant jesus claim to be part of the God head. jesus is both the son of God and then God himself who came down as man to feel what humans go through. he was in the flesh they say. so jesus needn't say i am god. they will also like to quote asahia to justify their claim that jesus is God.the verses "i am the aplha and omega" is use extensively to back-up the claim. but all that is no fact as jesus never mention that any one should worship him or call on him in distress. how can God forget to tell people to worship him in person? also when the desiples asked jesus, how shall we pray, he taught them the "Lord's prayer" which starts with "our father who arth in heaven, etc." so if jesus is God why our father who is in heaven? |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 08:17:16
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Great posts all of you. However, Kobo when I say that "you cannot try Jesus in a court of Islam" because "there is a lack of jurisdiction", what I mean is that even though Islam recognizes and respects Jesus as one of the most important prophets of God, you cannot fully understand the meaning and purpose of Jesus only in the context of Islam. Any judgment about Jesus must be based on his own book (his life and teachings), the Bible, just like any fair judgment of Muhammed (PBUH) must be based on his book, the Quran. I am sure if you try to analyse and understand Muhammad based on the Bible, the Torah or Darwin's "Origin of Species", there will be a problem. To analyse and judge Jesus based on any other scripture such as the Quran will be an equivalent of trying my friend Lurker based on the constitution of Zimbabwe, or more generally trying a Gambian based on the U.S. laws. By the way Hamdan, Bin Laden's driver is convicted in the U.S. today for aiding and abetting a terrorist organization among other charges.
Mansasulu (does that translate as the 'King of the wolves'?)most of Mathews, John, paul, and others were narrations and testimonies of the facts and events of Jesus' life and times; just like the compilation of the Quran happened many years after Muhammad himself (PBUH). The interesting thing I am trying to make here is that the claim of Jesus' representation or alleged representation of God (in human flesh) on earth has been made during his own life time and he did not dispute or correct it. Unlike Muhammad, who maintained that only God can forgive; Jesus is presented to us by himself and others to have raised the dead, cure the sick, and forgive our sins. These and other claims and representaions of Jesus are what depicts him as God, unlike Muhammad or any other prophet. |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 13:33:44
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kay, interesting points. but you fail to add that, not all christains take jesus to be God. the jehovah withness and the unitarians and another earlier christain group known as the paulisains and the coptics in north africa don't take jesus as God. this is not just the claims of muslims and jews.
and also if you ask many christains on the street the issue is very confusing. the burn of contention is, should jesus be taken as God (part of the trinity) or as the begotten son of God (different from other son's of God or even from the creation of adam)?
the quran was recorded in the life time of Muhammad not ceturies after him. the bible on the other hand was an inspiration to the authors some of whom not much is rcorded about. there was a council set-up by the prophet of islam to record each and every word he receive from God. this council have among them people who memorise the whole noble quran just like people are doing today.
the red lettering bible is said to be the only bible that differeciate the words of jesus and the words of the other people. say whatever jesus is said to have said is recorded in red, whatever any one esle said is record in black. the overwhleming majority of statements are in black. paul is the most influencail narrator of the present day bible.
the issue is that, christains will believe as they are taught likewise muslims and jews. but what the christain may need to explain to others further is how God tranform into man and then the son and still remain God. this is where many people find the jesus debate a bit confusing.
as for the ben laden driver, who cares about him? since the court was a militart court, the facts may not be public knowledge, most of what is release is filtered. but on the basis of it, he was a man doing as he pleases, he is entitle to face the music by all account. but a one sided account, i will not pass judgement on that. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 15:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Great posts all of you. However, Kobo when I say that "you cannot try Jesus in a court of Islam" because "there is a lack of jurisdiction", what I mean is that even though Islam recognizes and respects Jesus as one of the most important prophets of God, you cannot fully understand the meaning and purpose of Jesus only in the context of Islam. Any judgment about Jesus must be based on his own book (his life and teachings), the Bible, just like any fair judgment of Muhammed (PBUH) must be based on his book, the Quran. I am sure if you try to analyse and understand Muhammad based on the Bible, the Torah or Darwin's "Origin of Species", there will be a problem. To analyse and judge Jesus based on any other scripture such as the Quran will be an equivalent of trying my friend Lurker based on the constitution of Zimbabwe, or more generally trying a Gambian based on the U.S. laws.
Mansasulu (does that translate as the 'King of the wolves'?)most of Mathews, John, paul, and others were narrations and testimonies of the facts and events of Jesus' life and times; just like the compilation of the Quran happened many years after Muhammad himself (PBUH). The interesting thing I am trying to make here is that the claim of Jesus' representation or alleged representation of God (in human flesh) on earth has been made during his own life time and he did not dispute or correct it. Unlike Muhammad, who maintained that only God can forgive; Jesus is presented to us by himself and others to have raised the dead, cure the sick, and forgive our sins. These and other claims and representaions of Jesus are what depicts him as God, unlike Muhammad or any other prophet.
Thanks Santanfara for your reactions on Kayjatta's opinions & comments! Discussion about Jesus (P.B.H) and religious doctrines is not about 'jurisdiction, politics, spinning & distortions of facts or logical conclusions'.
Anything highlighted red from quotes above are baseless and Kayjatta please forward any proper authentic source of information to substantiate any points on them? Santanfara defended and clarified all your distortions on compilation of Quran and controversy of Jesus' claims to be God!
You talk about Bible as your source; can you please show me original Bible like in Islam having only one original Quran? Remember Dead sea scrolls appear to be incomplete and I wonder whether there exist any complete original scriptures compiled or kept either at Vatican, Jerusalem, Evangelical, orthodox, Coptic or Anglican amongst other denominations? Refer on the following controversial link about historical discovery of original bible; The Jerome Conspiracy under http://thejeromeconspiracy.com/gay
Unlike the Quran; it was completely compiled, memorised & authenticated for scholars of prophet Muhamad P.B.H during his lifetime The Quran is complete to serve mankind ("Ya baani Adam!") till end of time; in terms of life, death, mortality, faith & morality inter alia; to be one of its kind or which would be amongst the authoritative sources of information or knowledge for better understanding of our religions!
By the way who is actually biological father of Jesus (P.B.H)? What does Joseph or Mary represent? What was the miracle on birth of Jesus (P.B.H)? Is it different from creation of Adam or Eve? Does the Bible have some answers because the Quran have some answers for human race ("Yaa baani Adam!" or whether black, white, Arab, Jew, christian, hindu or aethist)
Please forward any logic or authoritative source on Jesus' claims to be God God is universal & mankind ("Ya baani Adam!") is universal for one world one dream!
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Edited by - kobo on 07 Aug 2008 16:48:34 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 16:20:09
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Kay, Mansasulu means "Chief Root" not King of Wolves. Sulu-Root, Suluu-wolf.
We are not trying Jesus in the court of islam. Jesus is not on trial here, it is those who claimed that Jesus is God who are on trial here. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 16:47:08
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Kay, Mansasulu means "Chief Root" not King of Wolves. Sulu-Root, Suluu-wolf.
We are not trying Jesus in the court of islam. Jesus is not on trial here, it is those who claimed that Jesus is God who are on trial here.
Related bantaba topics for further reference;
i) THE GOSPEL OF BARNABAS under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1746
ii) Jesus under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.aspTOPIC_ID=1592
iii) Blasphemy in religion ( for Kobo) under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2022
iv) The Prophets of Israel under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2761
Any logical explaination, reasoning or evidence acceptable universally or by its believers or those who understands science to help us on these quotes below:-
"But many believe something far more. Christians believe that God has actually visited us in human form. And they believe the evidence backs that up. So who is the real Jesus? Let’s take a closer look." |
Edited by - kobo on 07 Aug 2008 17:03:39 |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 18:51:52
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http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5129
good job kobo bu'laka. You know your threads are so sweet like kobo bu'laka. Tekna yasaa len kodeh o'yeh.
Debates between Christianity and Islam are best handled by the late Ahmed (Muhhamad) Didat (RIP!)
Nice debate guys....one would have thought this will heat up the high blood pressures here. Thanks to all of you.
Dalton
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"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 21:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
By the way Hamdan, Bin Laden's driver is convicted in the U.S. today for aiding and abetting a terrorist organization among other charges.
Is it not ironic that the man [almost] served his time before actually being convicted ? A travesty of justice if you ask me... |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 08:01:50
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Thanks guys for all your great contributions. Please allow me to re-focus this debate a little more. First of all, Santafara the word I used is "compilation". I am sure that is very different from 'scribing'. The scribing and memorizing of the Quran, as you rightly pointed out, occured during Muhammad's life time (PBUH) but the compilation of the Quran did not actually happen until the eras of Abu bakr and Uthman (am i not right?). Even after the eras of Abu bakr and uthman, the Quran has been edited several times at different times in the past.
Those who have studied the Quran purely from a literary perspective do not fail to recognize this structural anomaly is also observed in the Bible, even Marx's Das Capital or John Maynard Keynes' General Theory of Employment, interest and Money.
Second of all, Kobo the notion that "Jesus is God" is nothing much more than a belief, just like the concept of God Himself. There is no absolute prove. However, there are several statement and remarks in the Bible and other bibilcal stories both by Jesus himself and others that depicts Jesus as either God or a canonical structure of God. Now there are people who belief this concept, and there are others who do not which is perfectly fine because they may both be right. But what you cannot do is to scrutinize and pass an unbiased judgment on Jesus' Godhood through the lens of Islam. Islam and the Quran serves a different purpose and interest than that of Christianity and the Bible. The two religions are competitors in the market place of faith. Whenever we try to judge others based on our own subjective knowledge and faith, we fall into the trap of egocentricism (the inability to see the other's perspective).
My purpose here is not to justify and authenticate Christianity or undermine Islam, I am more of a Muslim than a Christian, although I also tend to belief that man indeed descended from the great apes... |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 13:29:57
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Kay don't try to play with words here! The arabic text recited is only one holy quran compiled during lifetime of prophet Muhamad (P.B.H) and read by all millions of muslim denomination. In arabic The quran primarily serves recitation and understanding; ("The Qur’an[1] (Arabic: Al-qur’ân, literally "the recitation";) . All muslims are taught to RECITE THE SAME BOOK and those knowlegeable ("Tafsir") teach us both to properly recite and understand it. The "Tafsir" are the authorities that help in translations and interpretations of the quran. Its the same complete book of knowledge for past, present & future intellectuals. Therefore nothing will ever be altered from it; nor a single sign or letter or even intonation will change from it. The quran is very clear on its position about God, life, death, faith, morality, mortality & all stages of civilsation of mankind ("Yaa bani Adam"); therefore your observations and comparisons about "structural abnormality" is not important on this issue about mankind, divinity & mortality. I agree to the fact that; over time there are various translations and interpretations better understanding, development of knowledge and others could be futile or counter-productive.
Refer on wikipedia on Qur'an under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an
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Edited by - kobo on 08 Aug 2008 13:54:57 |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 14:45:31
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Kayjatta, please refer to my comments from your quotes in red below;
"Second of all, Kobo the notion that "Jesus is God" is nothing much more than a belief, just like the concept of God Himself. There is no absolute prove."
Your own wrong opinions & conclusion here; because without concept of God, none of the major religions would not exist; i.e Judaism, christianity & Islam! We would not have been thinking of discussing Jesus (P.B.H). Refer to Bantaba link; Torah: Abraham remarried Hagar under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2373
"However, there are several statement and remarks in the Bible and other bibilcal stories both by Jesus himself and others that depicts Jesus as either God or a canonical structure of God."
Contradictions with what you said; "Kobo the notion that "Jesus is God" is nothing much more than a belief, just like the concept of God Himself. There is no absolute prove Others including; Buddha, Dalai laama, Krishna, deities are idolies as GOD Please forward statements and remarks from any original source that depicts Jesus (P.B.H) as God
"But what you cannot do is to scrutinize and pass an unbiased judgment on Jesus' Godhood through the lens of Islam. Islam and the Quran serves a different purpose and interest than that of Christianity and the Bible. The two religions are competitors in the market place of faith. Whenever we try to judge others based on our own subjective knowledge and faith, we fall into the trap of egocentricism (the inability to see the other's perspective).
My purpose here is not to justify and authenticate Christianity or undermine Islam, I am more of a Muslim than a Christian, although I also tend to belief that man indeed descended from the great apes...
Do you want us to close this topic as irrelevant? Its a discussion and not a propaganda of religion? There are answers from Quran and message of Islam; which you do not want us to share and others to digest? Your inferiority about Islam & Prophet Muhamad is what affected the Jews to condemn and reject messages of a fellow Jew (Jesus P.B.H); God covenant, promised messiah inter alia
I can assure you that there are useful information to gather from learning Quran & Islam? On issues of Jesus' claims to be God; what is Adam who was created without biological father or mother? What is Eve who came without mother? However Jesus did came as a miracle with a mother? |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 17:51:55
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thanks kay for your stance. i respect that. you rightly said that we cannot analyse christianity with an islamic lense. after saying that, i would like to refute your continous claim that the quran was edited after the prophet muhammad. either you don't respect the islamic sources or you are reppeating the statements of anti-muslim orientalist. what was done under the caliphet of abubacarr was to compile the whole quran in into one volume as the scribes each kept their records to themselves. this was not after a century but immeadiately after abubcarr assume the caliphet. also the quran was reveal such that, it is easy to commit to memory. so there was no editing as you are errorneously stating.
finally, islam did not reject the whole religion of christianity, what we muslims reject are the following: the TRINITY, THE DIVINITY OF JESUS, THE DIVINE SONSHIP OF CHRIST, THE ORIGINAL SIN, THE ATONEMENT AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAWS OF GOD AT THE COMMAND OF PAUL OF TARUS.we are similar in many other aspect. but again, christian believe themselves to be right so no need for them to accept others claims against them likewise us and the rest of other faiths and concepts. May Allah guide us all. amen.
during the caliphet of ousman (mabph) traslations of the quran were made in different languages and arab dialets. some of the translation were deem unauthoritative and misinterpreting. ousman commmission a council to issue out the the authoritative translations and copy of the quran written by the scribes of the prohpet muhammad (pbuh). at the time of ousman, many nations as accepted islam, so cultural and language barrier became important element. this was why it was imperative for a quran which is the authoritatvie copy to be issued to all new nations that have accepted islam.
now, i respect christianity, i did my best to know what the religion entells. we are a one human family. but the fundamentals of christainity was base of the TRINITY. this fact was ratified and accepted as canonical in 325AD at the council of Nicaea. according to theodore zahn until 250 AD the article of faith for christians was "i believe in God, the Almighty" between 180 AD and 210 AD the word father was added before Almighty. this was bitterly contested by some chruch leaders. Bishop victor and Zephysius are on record to condem this act. (articles of the apostolic creed, pp 3-37). the split in christianity happen arroun the issue of the Godship of jesus. this is not a muslims arguement only. but i as a muslim will make my statement with an islaimc understanding but there are also christian writters who made this points also.
lets analyse the authors of the current four accepted gospel. the earliest gospel was by Mark. this ws said to written between 6o and 75 AD. Mathew was a tax collector he did not travel with jesus. Luke was written much later and is drawn from the same sources as Mark. luke was paul's phsician both of whom never met jesus. John's gospel was written about 100 AD. this john is not the john that was with jesus. for two centuries the gospel of john was hotly debated whether to accept it as an accurate account of jesus's teachings.
what is evident is that the trinity which depict jesus as part of God was taugh much later not in the life time of jesus.
to know how significant paul's teaching and influence on christianity is, the read Galatian 5:4-5, 2:15-16, romans 3:28, 7:4-6, acts 15:28-29, corinthians 10:25 of the bible.
the most intersting part of paul's coversation to christianity happens on his journey to damascus. read the bible Acts 9:3-7,22:6-10 and Acts 26:12-18. this are all in the bible. this experience of paul change how religion brought by jesus would change drastically to tolerate things that jesus never preach. among them is the abolition of circumscission and the allwing of pork consumption. and many other things.
christianity should be analyse from christian sources. as muslims we believe that all prophets of God carry one message that is the message of one God without any partners and our obligation to worship him sincerely and obedeintly. the reenforcement of new prophets became necessary when the prophets teaching became corrupted and diluted. as for God truning into man, this is the fundamental dilema christianity faces ever since thr trinity was accepted as the officail church doctrine. the church faces challenges from the scienntific community and other critics including jews philosophers. one jews philosopher was said to have make the statement "i know what God is, but when God turn to man, he is no more God". muslims believe that God does only Godly things. which means only what befits the majesty of God does God do or else he delicate the duties to angles and men. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 15:44:56
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Kayjatta, I disagree with Santanfara that; "you rightly said that we cannot analyse christianity with an islamic lense.". This topic is forwarded for an inter-faith discussion to bring best insights of faith, intellect, to bear on contemporary life, understand each other and for common good of mankind ("Yaa baani Adam")!
More claims and representations under links below;
i)
Before we forward references and some answers from Al-quran (or Islamic faith) to contrast Kayjatta and others on "claims and representations of Jesus (P.B.H); & what depicts him as God"; lets review some terms from quran as follows:
Shirk :
Shirk consists of associating anyone or anything with the Creator either in His being, or attributes, or in the exclusive rights (such as worship) that He has against His creatures.
Shirk :
When one ascribes partners or setting up rivals to Allah in His rights.There are three types of polytheism:
1). The greater polytheism (Shirk Akbar).
2). The lesser polytheism (Shirk Asghar).
3). The inconspicuous polytheism (Shirk Khafi).
Shirk Akbar :
When a Muslim devotes any form of worship to other than Allah. Allah will never forgive one who dies upon Shirk,nor accept his good deeds, and he would be cast out from the folds of Islam.
Shirk Asghar :
The lesser polytheism is that means the acts of worship done to gain praise or fame rather than to please Allah, this type of polytheism, however, does not cast the person committing it out of the fold of Islam.
Shirk Khafi :
The inconspicuous polytheism implies being dissatisfied with the conditions ordained by Allah.The proof of the above Shirk is the saying of the Prophet “The inconspicuous polytheism is more hidden among this nation than the track of a black ant over a black stone on a dark night” (Musnad Ahmad)
More from related bantaba topic; Quran made easy under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4590
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Edited by - kobo on 09 Aug 2008 16:33:00 |
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