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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 14:38:51
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Tamsier,
Are you serrer? Please dnt turn against ur masters(Fulas).
On a more serious note. it seems ur type is only restrcited to senegal, how abt those Fulas in Mali, Ethiopia, Cameroun, Sudan. I hope you are not saying all fulas are very fair hence the likely relations to Arabs. Take this from me a typical Leigh and Taal are noted for their ebony skins and pointed noses.
As Santa indicated it would be of great help if you could direct us to this material. |
madiss |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 17:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by tamsier
IF YOU THINK THE ISREALITE OR THE ARABS WOULD HAVE YOU......
Can you cite credible sources to back your breakthrough historical finding? |
"When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty." |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 20:02:27
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| YES SANTANFARA! THERE IS EVIDENCE TO SUBSTANTIATE THAT. I SUGGEST YOU LOOK AT THE WRITINGS OF HANNO OF CARTHAGE, THE WRITINGS OF IBN KAHDON, HENRY GRAVRAND - COOSAAN - [LE CIVILISATION SEREER] AS WELL AS PANGOOL, OMAR NJIE LEYTI, THE WRITINGS OF THE VENITIAN - ALVISTO CADAMOSTO [THE ASIA/AFRICA SERIES VOLUME 3] AND THE HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS OF THE GRIOTS AS SUBSTANTIATE BY THESE ACADEMIC TEXTS. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 20:39:17
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MADIBA, ON MY FATHER'S SIDE, I AM A SEREER, AND ON MY MOTHER'S SIDE I AM A FULANI. IF THAT MAKES ANY DIFFERENCE. FURTHER, I SAID NOTHING ABOUT SENEGAL I POINTED OUT THAT THE FULA'S ARE A MIXTURE OF ARABS AND THEIR AFRICAN SLAVES. AS REGARDS TO THE MALI AND ETHOPIAN FULAS AS YOU PUT IT, I'VE ALREADY SAID THAT THE FULAS ARE NORMADS AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN NORMADS. I CHALLENGE YOU OR ANYONE TO DISAGREE. THAT POINT SETTLED, I NOW MOVE ON TO YOU LAST POINT, THAT THERE ARE FULAS WHO HAVE EBONY SKIN AND POINTED NOSES. SO WHAT! THE BEST ANALOGY I CAN GIVE YOU IS:
IF SOME ONE IS OF MIX PARENTAGE E.G. HALF WHITE - HALF BLACK, THREE GENERATIONS DOWN THE LINE, IF THEIR DECENDANTS MARRY AND BREEDED WITH ONLY BLACK PEOPLE, THE CHILDREN WILL UNDOUBTED HAVE EBONY SKIN. THEY SAME HOLDS TRUE IF THE PERSON DECENDANTS MARRY WHITE PEOPLE, THE CHILDREN WILL UNDOUBTED BE AS PALE LIKE ANY WHITE PERSON I KNOW. I DONT WANT ANY BODY TO GET ME WRONG. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON FULANI. IF I ATTACK THE FULANI I ATTACK MY MOTHER. WHAT MAKES ME ANGRY IS PEOPLE WHO DONT KNOW THEIR HISTORY AND COME UP WITH ALL NONSENSE. I HAVE SEEN THIS LOTS OF TIMES ESPECIALLY WHEN PEOPLE WISH TO CLAIM DECEND TO THE PROPHET MOHAMMAD IN ORDER TO SATISFY THEIR INSECURITIES. THEY ARE SO ASHAMED OF BEING AFRICAN THEY WOULD LIE ABOUT THEIR ANCESTORAL ORIGIN. I WOULD NOT GIVE NAMES/FAMILIES BECAUSE I DO NOT WISH TO OFFEND. MY FAVOURITE SUBJECT HAS ALWAYS BEEN HISTORY. KNOW YOU HISTORY, EMBRACE IT, BE VERY PROUD OF IT AND BOW TO KNOW ONE. BY TRYING TO REJECT YOU HISTORY, YOU DISHONOUR YOU ANCESTORS. BY ADOPTING SOMEBODY ELSES HISTORY AT THE EXPENSE OF YOUR OWN, YOU ELEVATE SOMEBODY ELSES ANCESTORS AND DISHONOUR YOUR OWN. THIS IS MY PHYLOSOPHY. PEACE. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 15:25:54
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| interesting tamsier. i don't have much time to check out this sources but i hope others can find time to colaborate. fula is a massive tribal group. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 12:12:52
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Santafara, you asked me to substantiate my argument, I did so by directing you to the sources - and now you are telling me you haven't got time to read at least one of these books. Instead of doing the research yourself you want somebody else to do it for you. What kind of a mentality is that? No body has time for extra curricular activities. I too have to go to work every day, but I still find time in my busy schedule to visit the library, read books and exchange ideas in this forum. I am not asking you to refer to these sources - today, tomorrow or even next year, but at least make a pledge to refer to at least one by yourself. As a Gambian, you know I love you really, but I give you 4 advice:
1. Never - ever take a statement or opinion as the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth.
2. Always ask were the person got his facts from [which you have
done]. Tell them that you cannot prove or disprove their
aguement right now because you haven't got all the facts but will
find out in order to substantiate or unsubstantiate their
argument.
3. Always do the research especially when it relates to an important
matter. In this case, the matter is the history of our people, I
think you would agree with me this is an important matter and not
something trivial like: what ice cream flavour you prefer, or who
is your favourite designer?
4. With these steps you acquire knowledge - the only think man can
take with him to his grave. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 17:40:42
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Tamsier i was busy hence my delay to return on this topic. You said you didnt say Senegal"YOU ARE DECENDANTS OF SLAVES - FROM ARAB MOORES AND THEIR AFRICAN SLAVES. DURING THE REIGN OF DJIGAN JOOF [THE FIRST KING OF TUKAR 47OBC] - WHO WAS A SEREER, YOU WERE THE SERVANTS OF THE SEREERS." When you talk about Toucouleur and Sereer the main country that comes to mind is Senegambia.
Your asertion that fulas are nomads is NOT TRUE. This is because if you really know the fula set-up, we have what we call FULBE JERRI. These are fulas who are predominantly farmers(horticulturalists). In a sense they dnt rear animals hence no-need to be nomadic. The reason for nomadic life is to keep their animals alive by moving from pasture and watering spots. In Guinea Conakry alomst95% of PULFUTAS dnt have cattle or to put it better are not into animanl husbandry. These Fulas are mainly horticultarilst and islamic scholars.
As you advised Santa not to accept all that one says, i hereby PUT on hold your assertions. I was told long ago that Fulas originated frm Egypt. That was more than 30yrs ago, i was skpetical then. Our originating from Egypt doesnt necesarily mean we are descendants of Arabs. We ARE NOT. Try to read this book if you understand French, here are the details DE L'ORIGINE EGYPTIENNE DES PEULS
Auteur(s) : Aboubacry-Moussa Lam(Author)
Éditeur : Présence Africaine(Publisher)
Genre : HISTOIRE (Historical)
This is becos i can't figure out any remnants of the Arabic culture or language that has still clung on us. Remember Bilal frm the Prophet Muhammad's (SAW) time? He was darker than most Sereers today Yet this guy Bilal hailed from Abyssinian , present day Ethiopia.
If may interest you to know that the original inhabitants of North Africa are the Berbers, who also have a diffenernt complexion with the Arabs, the arabs from the Arabian Peninsula in spreading Islam cross-in met these berbers intermarried with them, yet we dnt have crossed breeds? In addition the black-arabic speaking Sudanese, call themselves arabs, the Fulas there (Sudan) still call themselves Fulbeh, they speak Arabic as well and has lived in Sudan for ages. Why didnt they melt into the arabs as the black-skinned arabs of Sudan done? Do you also know that Manjagoes are believed to belong to the Bantu speaking group mostly found in South Africa, Central and East Africa?
To conclude intermarriage can diminish original features, true. That is if all there was mix in the first place. The Nigerians from River State are fair as NIgerian peuls or Fulas and attimes even fairer. Tamsier where they also half-casted by the Arabs or the Europeans? Please dnt tell me thats why they speak Pidgin-Enghlish. Becos these cross river people have their own Dialects which niether resemble Arab is nor English. Infact most of these cross river state people are Either Christian or Animists. Tamsier Almighy Allah is the best ceator, he created all human-beings in differrent shapes forms and colours.
Tamsier if you want to be fair , go buy HASSAL
ARAB IS ARAB, FULA IS FULA. |
madiss |
Edited by - MADIBA on 20 Feb 2008 17:42:31 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 05:20:36
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Madiba! Are you alert? 'You are decendants of slaves - Arab Moors and their African slaves'. That was my third sentence followed by a 'full stop'. I then went on to talk about the reign of Djigan Joof and the normadic culture of the Fula and their relationship with the Sereers when they reached Tukar. You like certain people edit link statements to fit your purpose. That will not wash with me. I even highlighted that in my first post addressed to you - 'the Fulas are a mixture of Arab Moors and their African slaves'. If you cannot comprehend that Senegal and Gambia [e.g. Senegambia] are not the only countries in Africa, that is you problem - not mine.
You mention the Fulbe Jeris, aren't they part of the Fula Tribe? Besides, they are so minute they dont warrant a mention and as the majority of the Fulbe are normads, I do not see the point in trying to pick holes. The same holds true when I talk about the Sereers. You do not honestly expect me to mention one by one the Sereer Safine, Sereer Noone, etc. They are Sereers period. The same argument holds for different tribes through out the world.
You trying to substantiate your argument by stating the Fulas are not decended from Arabs because you cant find any remnant of the Arab Culture or Language that 'still' clungs on the Fula is silly. Culture and language changes over time. Even the English language - for instance had experienced changes. The English of the 15th century and the English we know and speak today are totally different. The same holds true for culture. The main factors being time and environment.
You talk about the Fulas in Sudan not melting with Arabs, who told you that? You seem to think that the Fulas are not/were not a result of mixing. If it makes you feel any better, keep thinking that. I have no problem with mixing the bloodlines and frankly, I dont even care. But I can see that it has affected you gravely -, so believe what you like if it eases your contion.
As for citing the work of Aboubacry Moussa, his work has been repudiated by several scholars including Omar Njie Leyti as well as Henry Gravrand - who by the way is totally independent just incase you disagree with the work of Leyti. I refer you to 'Les Civilisation Sereer, Coosan'.
As regards to your 'cheap shot' that - 'if I want to be fair, I can go and buy Hassal', that is low even for you. I make it clear to you that I am already fair so I dont need it. But even if I wasn't fair, I wouldn't buy it. I put it to you that you have insulted all dark skinned people through out the world. Shame on you. As an African, you should know better, yet, you embrace your light skin with all your vigour as a badge of honour. You are a disgrace to the African people, light and dark skinned alike. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 21 Feb 2008 23:09:50 |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 21:53:39
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Tamsier , if you feel offended by my cheap shot of you buying 'Hassal', my profound apologies. I did that out of the camaderie, KAL OR SANAWUYA that exist between Fulas and serrer, Jolas etc etc.
Back to the issue at hand. I repeat we FULAS have NEVER EVER DESCENDED FROM ARABS. If we have descended from Arabs where did the Sereers descend from? Where did the rest of the hundres of African tribes descend frm? You accused me of insulting all black people. I think if anyone did insult its you. " IF YOU THINK THE ISREALITE OR THE ARABS WOULD HAVE YOU, WHY DON'T YOU GO BACK TO THEM. YOU FULAS DONT EVEN KNOW YOUR HISTORY. YOU ARE DECENDANTS OF SLAVES - FROM ARAB insulted a whole people. What i expect from you is an apology for the sake of your mom who according to you is a Fula.
You expertly dodged the Berber and River state people from Nigeria issue .You can run but you can't hide.
On the evolution of cultures and languages. I beg to seriously defer. As far i know the Fula language has NOT REPLACED ANY WORD.If you said some non-Fula words found their way into Pulaar that i can agree. The comparison with the English Language, e.g where THOU is replaced by YOU, is not possible in Pulaar. With foreign influence some Fula words have been lost and NOT REPLACED. For example in Wolof, Minister is called JOWREEN. That term existed since time immemorial. Today many wolof speakers do not know that word. Veteran broadcasters like Alh Mansour Njie of Radio Gambia is very aufait with such terms and occasionally uses them. Senegalese newscasters try alot to use little foreign words in their news cast as much as possible.
Our local languages dnt have regulatory bodies, like the Academie Francaise where the language is revised.
Still on, no link whatsoever between Pulaar and Arabic EXCEPT those words that came with Islam, such as Allah. Hybrid languages like Swahili still carry the remnant or corrupted word frm the parent language. Swahili is a hybrid language from Arabic and Lingala, which is a bantu dialect spoken from the East to the Central Africa.
From Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, to the Congos.
To the issue of historical publication, you want us to believe in the writings of Omar Njie yet refuse Moussa Lam? If , a big if your Omar Njie a Serrer or wolofnized Serer defends the stand of the Sereers, why cant Lam do the same for his Fula people?
For you information, Fuuta Toro was the first region in West African to embarce Islam in the 9th century. Who were living in Fuuta at that time? Who brought Islam to Fuuta at that time? Fuutankbobee and Arabs are the answers respectively. When these Arabs or mooors settled amongst the Fulas, they intermarried, which is natural. The Arabs also did intermarry with th Berbers of North Africa and the locals of Timbuctoo in Mali.Does that make them Slave descendants? Were all Tukolors married to these Moors? The Tukolor dynasty ruling at that time were the Mannas. They ruled between 1000AD to 1300AD. Between 650AD and 1127AD FUUTA had 5 dynasties. When Mali empire started to decline, the Jolof empire took over to oversea FUUTA. The last dynasty to rule FUUTA at the time was the LAAM TAAGA. The Laam Taaga were topple by the great KOLI TENGELLA. KOLI TENGELLA a Fula Chef but a pastoralist was attracted by greens of FUUTA then. He founded the DEENI YANKOOBE dynasty. They ruled between 1527-1770AD.
Tamsier lest you get confused. I am giving information on a certain group of Fula the Tokolor, becuase you wrongly mentioned Tekrur as a Sereer Kingdom. Tokolor originated from Tekrur.
To conclude you erreonously referred to the Fulbe Jeri as minute. Do you know why we called them Fulbe Jeri? In fula parlance we have Jeri and Walo. Jeri is predominantly far from the seas, rivers or water bodies in general. Walo on the opposite is puntuated by green scenery and plenty of water. Hence the Mbalax Super star Yousou sang about Walo. BALA NGA HAM NEE WALO NEEHE DEMAL DAGANA, MARR NAAN MARRUT NAAN WALO BA NKI WALA-NGAN. You can find Fulbeh Jeri from Saloum to Nioro in Senegal, and in the Gambia from Nuimi to Jokadu.
Besides other Fula sub-groups like the artisans can and do live in the Jeri.
If time permits i would furnish more information if need be translate them from French. |
madiss |
Edited by - MADIBA on 23 Feb 2008 00:04:07 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 18:37:11
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i admit that i have indeed insulted the fulas with that sentence. it was over the top in response to someone elses earlier posting. nevertheless, i take that back, and sincerely apologise to all fulas and anybody elses i may have offended. your appology accepted. nonetheless we will agree to disagree. some parts we agree on others we dont. lets live it at that.
peace |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 23:59:59
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| Tam apologies accepted. Be rest assured i have nothing malicious in by postings on this subject. Mine was just to give another side of the story. |
madiss |
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kaanibaa
United Kingdom
1169 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 17:52:06
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| Bravo guys keep the fire burning but the essence is to get us the true history and genealogy of our various tribes.This was a very mature discourse.Vivres la verites! |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 11:10:35
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I will rise some day about a braved two young brother boy of Fulani,
(Kuloroo and Garabah)who faces a brutalist king in Sekou& Massina(called Daa Mooso)The biter one!
But Let us first go littlebit through a Glance History of the Fulani/Fulbe people.
The people who are known to the English speakers as Fulani,Peulh or Toucouleur for French speakers, refer to themselves as Haalpulaar or Fulbe (Pullo, singular). The British have adopted the Hausa`s name for them because they first came into contact with them in Hausaland (Northern Nigeria). The French in the other hand, have adopted the name used by the early Arabs Historian “Takruri” meaning the inhabitants of Tekrur in reference to their kingdom in the middle Senegal valley.
While their origins is a subject to many theses, the Fulani Historian Aboubacry Moussa Lam, of the University Cheikh Anta Diop in Dakar, one of the leading Egyptologist in Africa, favored the Nile theses. In his well documented book De L`Origine Egyptienne des Peuls, Professor Lam developed a theory supporting a migration from East to West (Egypt, Ethiopia, along the Sahara), and then a second migration to the opposite direction (Eastward).
Many archaeological artifacts found at Tissilli and Hoggar region of central sahara (now southern Algeria) testifies that the ancestor of the modem Fulani occupied the Great Sahara long before its transformation to a desert which was completed around 2000 B.C.
The galleries of pictures engraved on stones and splendidly painted images of the early inhabitants of Great Sahara, their God, their cattle and the animal which flourished then, have led many specialists in the field, to conclude that, these are Fulani. Referring to these archaeological founding Henri Lhote Said:” Face to these documents, old of thousands of years, hidden under to the rocks of Tassali and Hoggar, I was marveled by resemblance and, my first reflex was to say: “these are Fulani.”
From mobil pastoralism to Empires builders.
The majority of Fulani people today are sedentary and live in urban centers, but originally their way of life was mobil pastoralism.
Around the fIfth Century BC, the Fulani have played a signifIcant role along with the Soninke (a northern Mande group) in the rise of the powerful Ghana Empire.But one result of the growth of this settled agricultural society was to disperse pastoralist outwards, and to make them settle to the South-West in the steppe land astride the middle Senegal Valley, where they later developed another kingdom known to the history as Tekrur. With the rise of lslam in seventh century, some of them were converted to it as soon as the tenth century, and chose to participate in settled and Muslim society, and become the people now called Tukulor, meaning "people of Tekrur". But about eleventh century other Fulani who did not accept the settled and Islamic way of life, sought to preserve their traditional pagan pastoralism and filtered eastwards through the grassland of the sudan. By the fIfteenth century, they had settle in consideration numbers in Fuuta Jalon highlands, and in around Masina, the inland delta of the Niger upstream of Timbuktu. They were also beginning to appear in Hausaland. By the eighteen century large numbers of them were settling in the grassy uplands of Cameroon.
In this remarkable emigration the Fulani had occasionally mixed with the earlier inhabitants of the land in which they settled, however, most of the time they remained distinct communities, each under its own leader, the ardo, continually moving themselves and their herds through the bush pasture around the fields of the agricultural villages.
Many Fulani indeed, maintain into today this way of life intact. However, in cours of time some Fulani did break away from this distinctive pagan pastoralism to settle in the growing urban centers, and there they converted to Islam.
The urban Fulani of the dispersion maintained their ethnic links not only with the wondering herdsman in the rural district, but also with the Islamized Fulani ( Tukulor) population in Fuuta Tooro (ancient Tekrur) and Fuuta Jalon in the far West.
The Almamiyat of Fuuta Tooro and Fuuta Jalon
In eighteenth century the Fuuta Tooronke and Fuuta Jalonke,the earliest sedentary Fulani, now largely Islamized, began to reorganize traditional West African society into Muslim theocracy, which resulted to the foundation,in 1725 of Muslim State, the Almamiya (Imamate) of Fuuta Jalon (guinea). In Fuuta Tooro, (northern Senegal and southern Mauritania) a Fulani Muslim clerical group, known as Toorodbe followed the example of their kin Fuuta Jalonke by overthrowing the rule of another Fulani pagan dynasty called Deniyanke,in 1775-76 and founded the Almamiya of Fuuta Tooro
Sokoto Empire:
Shortly after this there developed the most famous of the Fulani Muslim rule, The Sokoto Empire, founded by Sehu Usman dan Fodio (1754 - 1817), in what is now northern Nigeria. Over some 180.000 squire miles and more than 10 million people, the size and strength of this empire have always attracted notice. More recently, increasing attentiom has been paid to its history thr°l!gh studies of its considerable literary output, mainly in Arabic but also in Fulani and Hausa languages. Usman dan Fodio and his principle lieutenants, his brother Abdullah and his son Muhammad Bello, are alone known to be the authors of over 260 works-books and treatises on religion, law, politics and history, and also poetry.
The Masina Empire
Ahmadu Ibn Hammadi (1775-1844) another Fulani Muslim cleric, and contemporary with Usman dan Fadio, founded In Masina (Mali) a new empire of some 250.000 squire miles which included within its borders the legendary cities of Jenne and Timbuktu.
The Omarian Or Toucouleur (Tukulor) Empire.
In nineteenth century the charismatic Elhaaj Omar Taal (c. 1795-1864) founded the Tukulor Empire. EIhaaj Omar was born in Halwaar in the Tooro region of Fuuta Tooro. After completing his education in Islamic science of the day, he left his homeland at the age of twenty five to visit the greatest learning centers of the western Sudan, which led him to Fuuta Jalon, Masina, and Sokoto, where he spent about twelve years, associate himself with Bello's court and took one of his daughters to wife. He also had been to Makkah and to Egypt,and had been in contact with its greatest Saykhs, and with those of the AI-Azhar University in Cairo. In Cairo, El-haaj Omar meet Seykh Muhammad al-Ghali who appointed him the Khalif of the Tijjaniya order in Western Africa. After twenty years away from home, he returned to Fuuta Tooro in 1840 with many disciples from Bornu and Hausaland. Nine years later, with such followers as he had, he migrated to Dinguiray on the borders of Fuuta Jalon and Bambuk, where he established a ribat , a religious sanctuary for the training of recruits to the Tijjania order. As such it attracted people from many walks of life and from a variety of ethnic groups.
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