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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 17:39:46
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| I want to make it clear that my critics concern the US government, I don't hate the country and its people. Gambiabev's accusation is hypocritical; she herself said very unfriendly things about the USA before. |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 18:09:02
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Most people in USA are God fearing and I suspect if a Muslim person and an American Christian met they would have lots of shared values and lots in common.
bev can you break this down,
america has muslims, religion can be found across borders, why not an american christian and american muslim, at least they would be of the same nation. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 22:43:13
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I agree with above posts. There are who supports dubya and his girl friend. But one must acknowdege the support of brits for anti-war demonstrations. When I was in London, I was proud with the british how they supported muslims. So the truth is universal. People who have common sense knows what is going on.
Leftist Germans and its government. They were in some degree realize what yankees were doing and never supported.
I guess frustration here about terrorism. We all condemn terrorism and Osama. But we need to acknowledge that nation's international policies have tremendous negative impact on third world that is one of the root cause for terrorism. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 08:47:49
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I think MOST terrorism is born from religious hatred of another group. Then on top of that comes the political situation and economic frustration. But first is relgious MISGUIDED beliefs.
Turk, if you asked people in Northern Ireland, they would say they were invaded by UK army. It wasnt a 'war', but an occupation. Many people on all sides were killed.
There are many things about America I live and many things about America I dislike. But I try to treat America people as individuals. I have meet some very nice ones and some very ignorant ones. Think its the same in every country. |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 09:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
I think MOST terrorism is born from religious hatred of another group. Then on top of that comes the political situation and economic frustration. But first is relgious MISGUIDED beliefs.
What are the RELIGIOUS MISGUIDED BELIEFS Be specific so that we can help you.
Your order of the situation for the deeply rooted problem appear to be wrong. The underlying factors and complexities of this terror is mainly POLITICAL (including DOUBLE STANDARDS) & ECONOMIC WAR!
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Edited by - kobo on 15 Sep 2007 09:34:53 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 09:53:50
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The belief that allah or God wants people to kill and be suicide bombers in his name.
Politics and economics are the back drop to these events. But it is false religious beliefs that persuade people to become bombers.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 09:57:28
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quote:
I think MOST terrorism is born from religious hatred of another group. Then on top of that comes the political situation and economic frustration. But first is relgious MISGUIDED beliefs.
Bev
Chicken and Egg.
This was pretty much it. You sounded like George Bush, as much as you don't like it but you are on Bush's side. Every comment he makes, just like you, refer terrorism to radical islam and deny the other reasons. Anyway. That is the fundamental difference between muslims in general and western perspective. According to you, the main source of terrorism is islam as an ideology.
Muslims, on the other hand, think that the root cause of terrorism is imperialism and its social problems. Islam is just a tool for the main objective. You see, when palestinians took hostage of jewish athletes and kill them, they were not motivated by islam. They were socialist. Yasser Arafat established PLO as a socialist organization. They were terrorists yesterday as socialist. Now Hamas are religious. They are terrorist too. There are two variables here islam and socialism change, but principle issue is the injustice of palestinians. So your theory does not really appy to this case. Does it?
I will give you credit though. At least you acknowledge the economic and political situation. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 10:04:36
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quote:
The belief that allah or God wants people to kill and be suicide bombers in his name.
Where did you get this information from. I got different information. They just go kill people for just based on religion? Picture yourself, you are unemployed, no job, no money, no social services, brits are invaded by german soldiers. At the top of that, someone in your family killed by german soldiers. Or you and your family humiliated by German soldiers. Would that be motivation for you to take the same action. How come there are no suicide bombers from Turkey, gambia, mali, iran, pakistan but only suicide bombers happened to come from palestine? Why mostly from palestine?
And most important, why so called islamic terrorism and suicide bombers suddenly started to come to news last 10 years. Islam has more than 1400 years old. Suddenly we had suicide bombers. Do you think islam is altered?
Bev. Question for you. Can you profile 'suicide bombers'? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 15 Sep 2007 10:16:37 |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 10:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
The belief that allah or God wants people to kill and be suicide bombers in his name.
Politics and economics are the back drop to these events. But it is false religious beliefs that persuade people to become bombers.
When does these THEORIES AND EVENTS occur The Gulf & Middle East was very stable before 2nd World War. Muslims were on safe with practising their religion. They lived with Jews, Christians and other religions for many decades without political problems to this magnitude after World War II and creation of allied and non-allied nations. Even Iraq was very a very CIVILIZED, modernised and advanced before advent of 9/11, the occupation and its TOTAL DESTRUCTION right in-front of your eyes (MEDIA) every day! Islam is spreading widely in America and nothing can stop it! Why can't you be SENSIBLE to put the blame on weak and corrupt LEADERS and failure of UN in the fight against TERROR!
Whats your problem with HISTORICAL FACTS as somebody who appear to be highly educated Where is it prescribed, ordained or any kind of AUTHORITATIVE SOURCES for your ALLEGATIONS; "The belief that allah or God wants people to kill and be suicide bombers in his name. "
Any debate you are PATHETIC and always display negative posts You should be realistic as you always exposed yourself as a HYPOCRITE!
I REPEAT AGAIN! You are always blasted as a HYPOCRITE in this forum as you are not pro-active, don't watch your words, statements and don't even want to gather anything fruitful in discussions. You always show STUPIDITY AND SCREWING others (ADVERSARIES!).
Your so-called pride & popularity in this forum is based on TOTAL PREJUDICES, NAIVETY, absolute RUBBISH AND JUNK POSTS.
Be straight-forward if you want good exchanges |
Edited by - kobo on 15 Sep 2007 10:44:59 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 12:45:40
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I said religion, I didnt just say Muslim.
Catholics in Northern Ireland for example. The poverty and economic situation were the breeding ground and then religion gave the cause.
Suicide bombers tend to be young poor men recruited into extreme politics and religious fanatisism.
I would NEVER knowingly kill anyone. It is completely against my beliefs.
I would never have joined the armed forces as a career and would never join an extreme politic movement.
I dont even kill spiders or ants, so I am not likely to kill a human.
Kobo, your personal attacks on me reflect badly on your intellect. Discussion is not personal and seeking to make it so just lowers the level.
You say that 'Islam is spreading in USA and nothing can stop it'. I have nothing against people freely choosing a religion in a free country. But dont you see that talk like that is exactly what makes the indigenous population frightened of Muslims? We should be living in peace side by side, not trying to take over anything!  
Turk you say there are no suicide bombers coming out of pakistan. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? The religious schools in Pakistan that young British Muslims go to to learn their religion have been recruiting grounds for extremists.
Leicester, the city I was born in , is going to be the first city in Britian where the immigrant population is bigger than the english population. In 2010 ( I think that was the date?) the english white community will be in the minority. Catholics, (Irish, Polish etc), Hindus, Sikhs, Rastas and Muslims etc.. all live side by side with the local white christian or non religious populations. The change in the city from 1960s to present day is amazing.It is a vibrant place to visit. To the older generations it is unrecognisable. Talk of the Muslim relgion 'taking over' is extremely threatening and frightening to these older people. We should be responsible in what we say and how we say it. The newspapers and Tv reports have alot of responsibility in this area. But so do individuals.
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 13:23:03
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Your critisms brought about these rhetorics;""The belief that allah or God wants people to kill and be suicide bombers in his name. "; "Muslim religion taking over!" which are against muslims.
When I reacted to first point, you were dodgy /tricky to include other denominatiions as example with "I said religion, I didnt just say Muslim.". Then shifting to indict others who are trying to counter your baseless ALLEGATIONS. You are pointing at ALL MUSLIMS and ISLAM to take TOTAL RESPONSIBILITY for this crises in the world. I must admit that Bin Laden as a muslim is using his religion for POLITICAL propaganda to snare some NAIVE, EXPLOITED, VICTIMISED MUSLIMS & MUSLIMS DISSIDENTS AGAINST THEIR OWN COUNTRY and advanced his own POLITICAL AGENDA (for e,g. The Palestinian course, the establishment Al-Qaeda or an Arabic kind of C.I.A nortured in AFGHAN, PAKISTAN, EGYPT, PALESTINE, SAUDI ARABIA & OTHER GULF STATES, to presrve and exploite the World's 2nd largest resrves for use on ISLAMIC SUPER POWER as adversary TO DOMINATE WORLD POLITICS) AGAINST ENEMIES (U.S, Western & other partners of World Trade Centre) THAT HE CREATED FOR 9/11. In terms of POLITICS Bin Laden and his terror net-work are accountable. In actual FACT they are U.S ENEMIES AS AMERICA WAS UNDER ATTACK!Any GENUINE person (including muslims) should CONDEMN those TERROR AND OTHER TERRORIST TACTICS KILLING INNOCENT VICTIMS(including suicide bombs). The U.S. should go after their criminals and enemies in times of war. Although they are muslims it is not right to blame and CONDEMN the RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY (ISLAM) AND ITS BELIEVERS (THE MUSLIMS, who happened to be dispersed all over the world in millions). Aftermath WORLD POLITICS & WORLD ORDER shifted to make ISLAM AND MUSLIMS very vulnerable. Unfortunately there is also indiscrimate mis-calculations to tag and include many innocent muslims victimised and destructions is on a massive scale against them (e.g Imams, mosques, civilians in warring countries)..Taking this opportunity to share with you this tribute (Michael Scales Pays Tribute to the September 11 Victims!!) from Freedom Newspaper on -line under http://www.freedomnewspaper.com/Homepage/tabid/36/mid/367/newsid367/2324/Michael-Scales-Pays-Tribute-to-the-September-11-Victims/Default.aspx
I wanted to move out of this DANGEROUS TOPIC which is fertile for EXCLUSIVE CRITICS ON ISLAM & MUSLIMS like your type to capitalize on. There is HIGH ALERT for censorship and any attempt to defend or dispel mis-conceptions and provacative remarks against MUSLIMS AND ISLAM is considered GLORIFICATION OF TERRORISM, which can land you in trouble. You are AN INSTIGATOR OF CONFRONTATIONS, THREATH TO PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE, VIOLENCE, RACIST AGAINST THIS RELIGION AND ITS BELIEVERS (HATE MUSLIMS!)AND WANT TO CAPITALIZE ON THIS WAR TO POLITICISE IT AGAINST NO OTHER TARGETED RELIGION BUT ISLAM. On these points refer to your statements;
1)"You say that 'Islam is spreading in USA and nothing can stop it'. I have nothing against people freely choosing a religion in a free country. But dont you see that talk like that is exactly what makes the indigenous population frightened of Muslims? We should be living in peace side by side, not trying to take over anything!"
2)"Leicester, the city I was born in , is going to be the first city in Britian where the immigrant population is bigger than the english population. In 2010 ( I think that was the date?) the english white community will be in the minority. Catholics, (Irish, Polish etc), Hindus, Sikhs, Rastas and Muslims etc.. all live side by side with the local white christian or non religious populations. The change in the city from 1960s to present day is amazing.It is a vibrant place to visit. To the older generations it is unrecognisable. Talk of the Muslim relgion 'taking over' is extremely threatening and frightening to these older people. We should be responsible in what we say and how we say it. The newspapers and Tv reports have alot of responsibility in this area. But so do individuals. Did I said "Muslim religion taking over!"
However let them shatter the mosques, kill imams and the innocent as GOD (ALLAH The ALMIGHTY) would always PROTECT this great religion ISLAM (A WAY OF LIFE FOR MANKIND!)in the HEARTS & MINDS OF BELEIVERS IN THE WAY OF LIFE THE HOLY PROPHET AND THE GLORIOUS QURAN FOREVER! In the Quran we have a chapter/verse that there is no compulsion to BELIEF. It is not my duty to PREACH but I would like to share selected chapters to dispell any misconceptions on ALLAH, QUR'AN, THE ISLAMIC FAITH AS A RELIGION, ITS MESSAGES AND IDEOLOGY. Please make sure you make proper references from them; to make sure that it has nothing to with POLITICS inorder to DIVORCE THIS RELIGION (ISLAM) FROM POLITICS under the following:-
1) Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia Qur'an
under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an
2) Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Qur'an:_Text,_Translation_and_Commentary
3) Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia Sūrat Al-Fātihah
(The Opening) I under http://www.qurancomplex.com/Quran/Targama/Targama.asp?nSora=1&l=eng&nAya=1#1_1
4) Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia Al-Kafirun PART I
under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kafirun
N.B: "To you your religion, and to me mine."
5) Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia Al-Kafirun PART II
under http://www.mounthira.com/learning/surah/109%2Dal%2Dkafiroun/
6) Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia Al-Kafirun PART IIi
under http://www.mounthira.com/learning/surah/109%2Dal%2Dkafiroun/
N.B:Summary of Al-Kafirun; "It defines the right attitude to those who reject Faith: in matters of Truth we can make no compromise, but there is no need to persecute or abuse anyone for his faith or belief."
(On that note my apologise to you with my offensive statements; to acknowledge respect to your opinions and to gracefully share with you my thoughts and this research for education and knowledge!)
ISLAM THOUGH IS NOT ABOUT WAR OR POLITICS BUT A RELIGION OF PEACE! The Palestine /Israel, Middle East & Gulf conflicts are all POLITICAL MESS & BLUNDERS BY OUR WORLD LEADERS AND FAILED STRATEGIC POLICIES, SCRAMBLES FOR MATERIALISM, POWER & DOMINATION!. They should leave the muslims pray in their mosques. The Imams should not gave sermons about POLITICS, castigating West, US, Jews, Infidels etc. Likewise The Pope and Rabbies should not indulge in POLITICS AND DIVISION OF THE HUMAN RACE! Islam's message is for "Ya Bani Adam!" (Oh ye children of Adam!) and is not own by the Arabs or any RACE! The message in Islam is for ALL MANKIND to follow under ONE GOD ("ALLAH!") without any compulsion! Muslims should ignore the POLITICS AND PROVOCATIONS and be humble, to lead a normal life, follow their religion privately and allow others to do the same PEACEFULLY!.I refer you back to the last sermon of Prophet Muhamad to REFLECT UPON THE MESSAGE OF ISLAM, FOR WISDOM, PEACE & EQUALITY! "Yaa bani Adam!" (MANKIND!) - ALL RACES ARE CHILDREN OF ADAM & EQUAL IN THE EYES OF ALLAH! We all have FREEDOM OF CHOICE & CONVICTION. These TERRITORIES & DAMARCATIONS OF PLANET EARTH ARE ARTIFICIAL BOUNDARIES! Therefore we need good neighbourhood & community relationships WORLD WIDE FOR PEACE, SECURITY, ABUNDANCE OF WELFARE & PROSPERITY!
Courtesy of Turk; "So stop shooting the messenger. Focus on the message!". On that note I share with you the last sermon of The holy Prophet Muhamad (s.a.w) under http://www.whyislam.org/877/Last_Prophet/Last_Sermon.asp
MAIN QUOTES FROM PROPHET MUHAMAD (S.A.W) LAST SERMON:
"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefore do injustice to yourselves. Remember one day you will meet Allah and answer your deeds. So beware: do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone." END OF QUOTES
I consider this main portion from Prophet's sermon as A WONDERFUL "MIRROR!" for any human being to put infront of your own FACE (YOUR EYES & MIND) to ASSESS your own-self on the TRUTH AND REALITY of WHO IS YOUR VERY OWN-SELF AND WHAT YOU ARE 100%! What do you see on that "MIRROR!"
Let the EXPLOITATION, INVESTMENT (wastage of Billions of Dollars on arms & WMDs), butchery and DEATHS continue on OIL (World's second largest reserves).
We have never seen this kind of GREED (BIG CORPORATIONS - HALIBURTON!),SCRAMBLE, DESTRUCTION OF INDEPENDENT SOVEREIGN STATES, THAT EXISTED MANY YEARS AGO (SINCE ANCIENT TIMES),TO THIS MASSIVE SCALE in guise of counter terrorism, Islamic extremism and religious fanatism politics.
Let our GREAT LEADERS go back to the drawing board on UN, where our visionary leaders after World war II started to account the mistakes & losses on humanitarian grounds to chart out a UN CHARTER FOR WORLD PEACE & SECURITY. No country big or small should have vetoe power to dictate UN policies. That can help in my opinion.
If you want us to continue our exchanges lets move on World Politics: topic War on Democracy |
Edited by - kobo on 16 Sep 2007 09:42:20 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 20:50:15
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If you want topic 'war on democracy' why dont you start it?
I am very busy with my school work. We reach overload a couple of weeks back into term. My 'to do' list is endless....so I won't be posting till next weekend. I will catch up and read with interest next Saturday morning.  |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2007 : 08:08:17
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| I do not think USA needs anyone's sympathy.If anyone has genuine ideas to help solve the Iraqi problem , they should be welcome. Admittedly Blackwater is very notorious , but marcenaries generally are. Remember the Serbian marcenaries in DRC ? However , it is acknowledged that Iraq apparently cannot function politically without Blackwater; but hey "if you break it you own it" Powell (2002). |
Edited by - kayjatta on 20 Sep 2007 08:08:57 |
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| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
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