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che
South Africa
40 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 14:48:14
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| A single African gorvenment as yet,was just Gaddafi's fantasy.The best short of even getting closer to such a state is to focus our energies on regional bodies.Lets have a common customs unity within our neighbours and regional buddies.Let ECOWAS do her thing,same as SADC,East African community,North Africa(though they are confused as to wether to allign more with Middle East)and Central Africa.If we can travell freely,trade freely as regions,then we can start focusing on a common agenda as Africa.At present AU is as useless as it gets.They dont criticise each other,they are power hungry.Look at Sudan's Darfur,Zimababwe,even our own Gambia.Surely intergration at this stage is not feasible. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 18:07:11
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I cannot agreemore. Its not feasible and therefore lets not wates our hard earned money only to creat round bellied public officials eating Ehtiopian "Njira" and "kufto"
I must admit, "Njira" is good food.
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 20:24:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Sister Omega
Njucks their are a sizeable population of mixed Ethiopian and Eriterian people who have family on both sides of the conflict at one time these two countries were one. They are symbolic of a pattern right across Africa were artificial borders formed at the Berlin Conference keep on hindering Africa's progress.
Peace
Sister Omega
Sister Omega.
the role of Europe in Africa's history has been flogged to death!!! kindly tell me anywhere in the world where you have natural borders!!! Maybe you think that old Mali, Ghana or Songhay covered the whole world.
are there no sizeable numbers of germans and french people living in France and Germany respectively? perhaps you think the modern borders of Germany, France, Belgium, The Czech Rep. Poland are not artificial!!
the point is that these people has risen about this and even removed these artificial borders to create the EU. Eritean and Ethiopians have not, they're killing themselves wasting their few million dollars whilst women and children starve!! Go to Ethiopia, you will see millions starving, this is a FACT. Yet Ethiopia has invaded Somalia, supposedly to maintain Law& Order. Each day, the presence of its troops in a foreign land cost the Ethiopia Treasury millions ($).
this is not a race issue nor a colonial thing. you completely missed my point. where africans decided to be constructive and unite they have done so. Tanzania is a combination of Tangayika and Zanziba. two different countries that became one.
infact there was no european hand in the breakaway of Eritea, they actually accuse Ethiopia of colonialism.
i'm not against African Unity, but it must start from within not by some 'grand design'. lets face it the AU doesnt have enough funds, read their text on Darfur |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 20:42:19
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Njuks
You are right. There are Germans in Strassbourg. When i visited there, i could but ask why so many German street names and i was told that it used to be part of Germany and the border re-drawn after 1945.
Tanzania is officially called" The United Republic of Tanzania".
In the case of Ethopia, they infact were not colonised and therfore not affected by the Berlin Conference of 1880. Thats why the AU headquarters is in Ethiopia as a semblance of freedom against foreingn domination.
I saw with my own eyes what Ethiopia looks like and still wonder how they could maintian a foreign army from their treasury. It still beats my conscience.
What do i know? |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 23:42:26
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The role of Europe in Africa and Middleeastern history is the biggest impact on what is happening right now. Especially on border conflicts and not having unity. The policy called old, traditional politics, called "DIVIDE and RULE". The comparison of europe to africa in terms of artificial border at best laughable. Europe borders were withdrawn based on years of war, nationalist revolutions. Obviously there may be some exception but mostly countries are nation state.
Let us see the nations in the list. Germany, almost pure germans except the immigrants like Turkish etc. France, only very small size of population live in ALSACE-LORRAINE which I spend 2 years to study. Only Belgium in your list come close to qualifies as there are 2 groups, Fleming 58%, Walloon 31%, mixed or other 11% live there. But one thing in belgium forgottan, the groups have all kind of rights and no ethnic group have dominance over others. Poland has 90s % of polish. Czeck Rep. has Czechs (94.2%, out of all). You probably confused it by former state that was merged with slovaks.
You are even more selective when giving tanzania example. They are probably the only country in the country where WILLING or natural process draw the border instead of IMPERIALISM. Let us see the some ethnicity in Africa.
Eritre:Tigrinya 50%, Tigre and Kunama 40%, Afar 4%, Saho (Red Sea coast dwellers) 3%, other 3%
Ethiopia: Oromo 32.1%, Amara 30.1%, Tigraway 6.2%, Somalie 5.9%, Guragie 4.3%, Sidama 3.5%, Welaita 2.4%, other 15.4% (1994 census)
Nigeria: Nigeria, Africa's most populous country, is composed of more than 250 ethnic groups; the following are the most populous and politically influential: Hausa and Fulani 29%, Yoruba 21%, Igbo (Ibo) 18%, Ijaw 10%, Kanuri 4%, Ibibio 3.5%, Tiv 2.5%
Gambia: Even mall country like gambia has (Mandinka 42%, Fula 18%, Wolof 16%, Jola 10%, Serahuli 9%, other 4%), non-African 1% .
I am not sure if there is any african country that come close to European's natural ethnicity/border balance. Most division today's the result of imperialism. That is not only in africa. Just see iraq, kuwait, palestine, kashmir etc.
Downsizing imperialism as an obstacle for unity is denial.
And quick question, why gambian and senegal two different country?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 23:55:27
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
And quick question, why gambian and senegal two different country?
Gambia and senegal were never one country even before colonialism. So its not colonialism which seperated them. Infact it was during colonialsim that large parts of these two territories came under one adminstration an era called "the colony of Senegambia."
If continue to go futher back in history, you will find that the concept of adminstrative regions were defined more in terms a few family units. The present concept of a country or region is very new in human evolution. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 00:45:05
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kondorong
I conclude that colonialism is a good thing for unity. I propose this than; I think best solution is France and England, 2 major imperialist re-invade Africa. Bring the justice, security and government reform using their sci&tech. And unite the country. Sounds like african leaders and africa itself is the problem.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 01:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
kondorong
I conclude that colonialism is a good thing for unity. I propose this than; I think best solution is France and England, 2 major imperialist re-invade Africa. Bring the justice, security and government reform using their sci&tech. And unite the country. Sounds like african leaders and africa itself is the problem.
Did i read you correctly?
Dont you know Kanilai has a bunker |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 02:56:27
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| Little sarcasm made your day :) |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 21:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by kondorong
quote:
Originally posted by turk
Downsizing imperialism as an obstacle for unity is denial.And quick question, why gambian and senegal two different country?
Gambia and senegal were never one country even before colonialism. So its not colonialism which seperated them. Infact it was during colonialsim that large parts of these two territories came under one adminstration an era called "the colony of Senegambia."
Kondorong you logged in before me! this is precisely what i was going to say. the final question implies that 'gambia' and 'senegal' were one country before the brits and french came. infact these names are all new. they were not one, and infact the land that is senegal/gambia etc had different states with different borders and a diverse ethnic composition. Fulladu is a good example.
you hear this all the time. ''Europe divided Africa'' the implication being that Africa was a united continent before. You see turk if you just try and concentrate you see the point. if you look at Nigeria, Usman dan fodio changed the history of the North, and its impact can still be felt today to the extent that the unity of Nigeria is at stake. would you then call U. dan Fodio an imperialist and that he divided 'Nigeria'?? as a 'turk'  you will agree that the ottoman empire was vast and lasted for centuries with different ethnic groups in it.
but all of this is digressing from the topic of this charter, its saltatory. Africans are not united not because Europe 'divided' them, they are not united not because the countries are too ethnically diverse, they are not united because they really don't want to or perhaps they dont know how because the priorities for most africans is to get the basics first.
the problem with imperialism is not that it divided people or drew borders, its what happened inside the borders thats the problem. the exploitation of the people ad resources therein.
as you asked before, why aren't Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania one country!! |
Edited by - njucks on 19 Jul 2007 22:21:42 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 22:18:31
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Is what I am reading wrong? According to historical piece Gambia was part of colonial games since 15th century. No? Either what I am reading wrong or you guys are from different planet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_The_Gambia
Let me re-phrase the question. I Europe obstacle for the unity? Did their colonial interest was on the agenda and the interest of africa was never on the agenda?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 22:46:06
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
Is what I am reading wrong? According to historical piece Gambia was part of colonial games since 15th century. No? Either what I am reading wrong or you guys are from different planet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_The_Gambia
Well let me speak for myself, beacsue i dont know if njuks is from Pluto. Certainly i am from this planet earth.
Gamabia and Senegal in their present forms were never under the same administrative structure. There many chiefdoms mostly at war with each other. The example of Fulladu, Kajor, Bawol, Sine, saloum will help.
Infact the Colony of Senegambia only covered the areas of Goree(St. Louis) from where captain Grant came with business men to populate Bathurst in 1815 just after the end of the Battle of Waterloo under the command of the Duke of Wellington. British influence hardly went beyond Goree area on the coast.
The manding Empire exercised influence through vassal states who owed allegiance to the King in Manding or some senior King in the region.
They in turn enjoyed protection but not without paying tributes to Manding. Much of those chiefdoms were based on tribes or ethnic lines and have supported each. For example, when the people of Kombo were attacked by the Bainunkas, they sought help from Kaabu who came to fight on their side.
The current district boundaries headed by Chiefs never existed before and is not a traditional Gambian institution. Many who were selected had no claim to the royal line of earlier kingdoms except generally the baldeh's in Fulladu. It was based on the policy of divide and rule authored by Lord Luggard.
The travels by Mungo park made no mention of the family names we have as chiefs in 1789 nor did it appear that a large organised Kingdom existed. Each small territory was held by some zealous ruler but as you moved into the interior, a more organised form of administration appears around jenne, Timbo and Timbuctu. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 23:03:04
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Ottoman Empire was not a typical imperialist country. It accomplished unity under hilaphet among muslims against crusades. They have fight against Christian forces for 600 years. Anyway.
Will you answer my questions or you continue your rhetoric. I have been readin all over about african history last a few days. Not a single african country did not have Europe as part of their history last 300 years.
I agree that "Africans are not united not because the countries are too ethnically diverse, they are not united because they really don't want to or perhaps they dont know how because the priorities for most africans is to get the basics first." I am not downsizing the issues to a simple reason. However, I still think the colonization by Europe was the biggest obstacle. If you don't control your destiny, you would never get united. One just read the history how europeans control the economy and political division in africa for centuries. Contrary to say, Europe indeed draw the borders of whole africa and middleeast.
To answer your question "as you asked before, why aren't Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania one country!!"
I don't know. Perhaps, I am sure if colonizatin did not happened there would have been different outcome. One might ask the question of why Kazakhistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgizistan, Turkmenistan which all of them 'turkic' are different country?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 19 Jul 2007 23:12:50 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 22:28:38
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ok ok i think we saying 'almost' the same thing. like i said before colonialism happened but its not the reason we are not united. you can be great in several ways, USA, USSR, etc are/were made up of divided territories with very diverse ethnicity. they each have a unique history.
infact the idea of a united africa is a direct reaction to colonialism. we can debate and look at history differently, but if we really want to be united we can do it when we are ready to do so. the reason for this unity must be better use of our resources, accumulation and distribution of economic wealth, food, education,security and prosperity.
NOT BECAUSE WE WERE ''DIVIDED''
Kondorong, Pluto is no longer a planet, remember you wrote about this sometime last year |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 22:37:30
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
Kondorong, Pluto is no longer a planet, remember you wrote about this sometime last year
I did that on purpose. It was meant to show an emphasis to a bygone history.
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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