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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2007 : 15:46:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dbaldeh
I must admit the debate is getting very interesting and mature. I must warn that we must not inject religious ideology(way of life) into this debate. I do however, agree that faith is important in human life but people must be able to choose which faith to embrace. It is a matter of choice.
Often when we debate about development or social issues we tend to be carried away with ideology or political affiliation.
The fact of the matter is that regardless of what system of government is envisioned, the interest of the people and their social conditions must be addressed. There are basic fundamental needs that every society needs. Sufficient food supplies, Access to decent healthcare and educational system, shelter and transportation are basic needs that any progressive society needs to bring to its people. Now what system of administration we can use to achieve these goals remains the fundamental question.
We must recognized that every society may need a different combination of administrative and economic formula to address the needs of its citizenry. In the case of our tiny Gambia, we need both an open political system and a strong social democratic system to protect the weak and promote the strong. We must lay down a strong foundation in conjunction with social institutions that will sustain the growing demands of our society. Only and only when we are able to build a strong foundation can we nurture a system and guarantee liberty and dignity for our people. That foundation unfortunately is what is missing in the Gambia.
It is sometimes ironic to say that Jawara's thirty years of power encourages strong democratic foundation. No viable democratic or sustainable economic institution was built during Jawara's time. Instead, what we had was a myth with formal elections held every five years just like Iraqis held their elections during Saddam's rule. Gambia's demise and lack of political and economic identity started from the very unset Jawara and his group took over the reign of our country. The failure cannot be underestimated.
There is less need to cry over spilled milk. The damage has been done long since and we must deal with the consequences. What then is the way forward?
We as gambians and friends of the Gambia have a lot of responsibility and blame to take in Gambia's present circumstances. If all the brains of a nation are eroded, how could the least productive or intellectually disadvantage achieve the highest goals for a nation. A President or government is as good as the people running it. Therefore, what we have in Gambia today is what we deserve.
We as citizens and future leaders have chosen our individual interest over the interest of our nation. As a result, the brain drain has reached climax to the extend that we can only act as outsiders and the government look at us as selfish and uncaring. It is time we ask "what we did for our country instead of asking what our country did for us" JFK JR. To be continued...
Why is it that some of us are afraid of Islam. And why is it that we often confuse adopting an islamic system of government with forcing people to embrace islam when the Allah says in the Quran "la ikra ha fi deen" (there is no compulsion in religion). When people of other faiths lived in the islamic khalifate they had more rights, than muslims living in the countries of other faiths. History backs this fact. Muslims have traditionally being tolerant and respectful to people living in their midst under an islamic system.
We conveniently forget that the people who introduced democracy to the gambia come from a Judeo-Christian background. 90 percent of the population in gambia is muslim, why cant gambians have the choice of an open debate to self determination.
China is not democratic, but they are the power house when it comes to the world economics today, and you wonder why? China knows what is suitable to its society and we instead are blindly following the west.
Kayjatta, I am sure you will agree with me that Jammeh was democratically elected twice by the Gambian people. Yes, he first came to power via a coup. A coup that the overwhelming majority of the Gambia people supported. People literally begged him to run as a civilian and all know what the results are. You can apply any logic you want, but the fact remains that the defacto democratically elected president is a tyrant we all voted for and now detest.
Jawara ruled from independence to 1994 (29 years) and Jammeh was elected president since 1996 (11 years). According to my maths that equals 40 years. The fact of the matter is that we dont know where we are headed...it has all along being a roller coaster ride of empty promises.
We need to reform and usher in a polictical system that is backed by the culture, morals, and religious convictions of the majority of the Gambian people. In short we need an islamic system. We need to a way of life ordain by Allah. There is social, political and economic justice in islam. There is freedom, liberty and robust system of development in Islam. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 03 May 2007 15:53:38 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 15:46:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dbaldeh
I must admit the debate is getting very interesting and mature......
Why is it that some of us are afraid of Islam. And why is it that we often confuse adopting an islamic system of government with forcing people to embrace islam when the Allah says in the Quran "la ikra ha fi deen" (there is no compulsion in religion). When people of other faiths lived in the islamic khalifate they had more rights, than muslims living in the countries of other faiths. History backs this fact. Muslims have traditionally being tolerant and respectful to people living in their midst under an islamic system.
We conveniently forget that the people who introduced democracy to the gambia come from a Judeo-Christian background. 90 percent of the population in gambia is muslim, why cant gambians have the choice of an open debate to self determination.
China is not democratic, but they are the power house when it comes to the world economics today, and you wonder why? China knows what is suitable to its society and we instead are blindly following the west.
Kayjatta, I am sure you will agree with me that Jammeh was democratically elected twice by the Gambian people. Yes, he first came to power via a coup. A coup that the overwhelming majority of the Gambia people supported. People literally begged him to run as a civilian and all know what the results are. You can apply any logic you want, but the fact remains that the defacto democratically elected president is a tyrant we all voted for and now detest.
Jawara ruled from independence to 1994 (29 years) and Jammeh was elected president since 1996 (11 years). According to my maths that equals 40 years. The fact of the matter is that we dont know where we are headed...it has all along being a roller coaster ride of empty promises.
We need to reform and usher in a polictical system that is backed by the culture, morals, and religious convictions of the majority of the Gambian people. In short we need an islamic system. We need to a way of life ordain by Allah. There is social, political and economic justice in islam. There is freedom, liberty and robust system of development in Islam. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 03 May 2007 15:53:38 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:01:55
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Islam may be all those things when it is practised in its purist form, but as we have seen around the world some people have a misguided view of Islam and use it as a cause for war and bloodshed.
China is making an econmic success, but the people have very little freedom. The human rights profile of China is lousy. Alot of people in China are still very poor. It is a similar story in Eastern Europe.
Generally with democracy comes freedom for the individual. Freedom of thought and freedom of beliefs. It is more invidualistic and less uniform.
As long as there is strong social welfare, health and education I dont see a problem with that.
To afford a good social programme countries need a high proportion of the population to be working and paying taxes to fund it all. So democracy, economic progress and social funding can go hand in hand if the will is there in the politicans to achieve it.
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:01:55
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Islam may be all those things when it is practised in its purist form, but as we have seen around the world some people have a misguided view of Islam and use it as a cause for war and bloodshed.
China is making an econmic success, but the people have very little freedom. The human rights profile of China is lousy. Alot of people in China are still very poor. It is a similar story in Eastern Europe.
Generally with democracy comes freedom for the individual. Freedom of thought and freedom of beliefs. It is more invidualistic and less uniform.
As long as there is strong social welfare, health and education I dont see a problem with that.
To afford a good social programme countries need a high proportion of the population to be working and paying taxes to fund it all. So democracy, economic progress and social funding can go hand in hand if the will is there in the politicans to achieve it.
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:04:55
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If there is a robust system of development in Islam then how come Gambia is not progressing? Things are getting more expensive and work is hard to find. Life for ordinary Gambians is harder than ever.
Gambia isnt a democracy it is a dictatorship. What does Islam think of Dictators? |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:04:55
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If there is a robust system of development in Islam then how come Gambia is not progressing? Things are getting more expensive and work is hard to find. Life for ordinary Gambians is harder than ever.
Gambia isnt a democracy it is a dictatorship. What does Islam think of Dictators? |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:29:30
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
If there is a robust system of development in Islam then how come Gambia is not progressing? Things are getting more expensive and work is hard to find. Life for ordinary Gambians is harder than ever.
Gambia isnt a democracy it is a dictatorship. What does Islam think of Dictators?
Gambiabev, you seem to know about african culture and society quite a bit. I am sure you are aware that african societies are not individualistic as western societies are. Consequently, the west's defination of freedom and african defination of freedom are not necessarily the same. The problem is that more often the west applies its standards to judge other people.
To answer you first question, Gambia is not progressive because we have followed a system (democracy) that has did not suit us for over 40 years. We tried to emulate the west and failed utterly. Things are getting more and more expensive and harder for the average gambian because we decided to be enslaved by the austerity measures imposed by the World Bank and the IMF. Prices of goods and the health of our economy is being dictated by someone else bent on making a profit. The United States for example protects its farm industry but highlt subsidizing it and yet still gets to determine what a poor gambian farmer gets for a bag of peanuts. If thats not looking out for yourself at the expense of the poor farmer, I dont know what is. And get what what, it is that same person calling for a liberalized and free market economy. You think that person cares about whether the average Gambia eats or not. This is typical capitalism at work if my knowledge of the subject is correct.
Democracy and the west gave rise to the dictatorship in Gambia. The west strangled the life out of us that gave rise to a dictator. In the absence of genuine lesadrship, the masses will listen to anyone who steps up to the podium.
Islam rids the society of dictators. If we had an islamic system, Jammeh will not have been president. He would have been unqualified, whereas, all he 's got to be under this system is to be popular so that he can change the rules of the game during the game. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 03 May 2007 16:35:43 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:29:30
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
If there is a robust system of development in Islam then how come Gambia is not progressing? Things are getting more expensive and work is hard to find. Life for ordinary Gambians is harder than ever.
Gambia isnt a democracy it is a dictatorship. What does Islam think of Dictators?
Gambiabev, you seem to know about african culture and society quite a bit. I am sure you are aware that african societies are not individualistic as western societies are. Consequently, the west's defination of freedom and african defination of freedom are not necessarily the same. The problem is that more often the west applies its standards to judge other people.
To answer you first question, Gambia is not progressive because we have followed a system (democracy) that has did not suit us for over 40 years. We tried to emulate the west and failed utterly. Things are getting more and more expensive and harder for the average gambian because we decided to be enslaved by the austerity measures imposed by the World Bank and the IMF. Prices of goods and the health of our economy is being dictated by someone else bent on making a profit. The United States for example protects its farm industry but highlt subsidizing it and yet still gets to determine what a poor gambian farmer gets for a bag of peanuts. If thats not looking out for yourself at the expense of the poor farmer, I dont know what is. And get what what, it is that same person calling for a liberalized and free market economy. You think that person cares about whether the average Gambia eats or not. This is typical capitalism at work if my knowledge of the subject is correct.
Democracy and the west gave rise to the dictatorship in Gambia. The west strangled the life out of us that gave rise to a dictator. In the absence of genuine lesadrship, the masses will listen to anyone who steps up to the podium.
Islam rids the society of dictators. If we had an islamic system, Jammeh will not have been president. He would have been unqualified, whereas, all he 's got to be under this system is to be popular so that he can change the rules of the game during the game. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 03 May 2007 16:35:43 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:33:35
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What qualifications would an Islamic President need?
Gambia has NEVER been a democracy, it is on the first small steps towards it.
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:33:35
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What qualifications would an Islamic President need?
Gambia has NEVER been a democracy, it is on the first small steps towards it.
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:44:51
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An islamic president is the most knowlegable in the rule of law according the Quran and Sunna, a person with a high moral character and above all is god fearing. None of which Jammeh has.
You tell me what was not democratic during Jawara's rule. We had free election, a corrupt elite who took advantage of the masses, freedom of speech, association etc, a liberalized economy with the imf and world bank dictating affairs. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 16:44:51
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An islamic president is the most knowlegable in the rule of law according the Quran and Sunna, a person with a high moral character and above all is god fearing. None of which Jammeh has.
You tell me what was not democratic during Jawara's rule. We had free election, a corrupt elite who took advantage of the masses, freedom of speech, association etc, a liberalized economy with the imf and world bank dictating affairs. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 17:20:23
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Why is it that some of us are afraid of Islam. And why is it that we often confuse adopting an islamic system of government with forcing people to embrace islam when the Allah says in the Quran "la ikra ha fi deen" (there is no compulsion in religion). When people of other faiths lived in the islamic khalifate they had more rights, than muslims living in the countries of other faiths. History backs this fact. Muslims have traditionally being tolerant and respectful to people living in their midst under an islamic system.
We conveniently forget that the people who introduced democracy to the gambia come from a Judeo-Christian background. 90 percent of the population in gambia is muslim, why cant gambians have the choice of an open debate to self determination.
China is not democratic, but they are the power house when it comes to the world economics today, and you wonder why? China knows what is suitable to its society and we instead are blindly following the west.
Kayjatta, I am sure you will agree with me that Jammeh was democratically elected twice by the Gambian people. Yes, he first came to power via a coup. A coup that the overwhelming majority of the Gambia people supported. People literally begged him to run as a civilian and all know what the results are. You can apply any logic you want, but the fact remains that the defacto democratically elected president is a tyrant we all voted for and now detest.
Jawara ruled from independence to 1994 (29 years) and Jammeh was elected president since 1996 (11 years). According to my maths that equals 40 years. The fact of the matter is that we dont know where we are headed...it has all along being a roller coaster ride of empty promises.
We need to reform and usher in a polictical system that is backed by the culture, morals, and religious convictions of the majority of the Gambian people. In short we need an islamic system. We need to a way of life ordain by Allah. There is social, political and economic justice in islam. There is freedom, liberty and robust system of development in Islam.
[/quote]
mansasulu, your contributions seems a little contradictory or should I say double standard. You seems to be dismissing democracy as a foreign system, but embrace Islam which is another foreign system. In fact history teaches us that democracy in its basic format has been with us from time memorial. Our society has practiced some form of democracy for several years. It is just that when the word democracy is mentioned, many equates it to a western ideology. Is it because it simply works best for them or what?
As Karamba said, a good system does not belong to anyone. It may have been originated or pioneered by someone but it does not necessarily belong to them. Why do we continue to blame the west and their institutions for the failures in our societies?
Another question is that under an Islamic system of government what economic strategies would you institute that would address the needs of our people? You seems to confuse between having a regious state versus economic policies and procedures. Would you tell me then that we need to get rid of our system of education and institute an Islamic system of education? How extreme do you think that would be and how far can that set us back?
I don't think anyone is against the faith itself, but if you are so dismissive of democracy, can you give us an example of an Islamic system in the world that has worked so well and that addresses fundamental needs of its people. Certainly the middle east where Islam originates does not present a good example. So am not sure where you are heading with this Islamic system of government. It is one thing to embrace practice the teachings of the almighty but another to impose it on people. What say you???
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
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