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mansasulu
997 Posts |
 Posted - 02 May 2007 : 21:54:59
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
Islam is not native to Gambia either. Is it ok to impose one outside thing but not another? I think people should have freedom of speech and a free vote on how their own country is run.
Why choose Allahs principles? Why not Jesus or Buddah? Democracy should be separate from the religion of a country because not everyong will follow the same religion. In UK I wish it was more separate. No country is perfect, not one. We can all learn from each other.
Gambiabev, islam is not native to the Gambia, true, buts its message is more universal than democracy. The west jammed democracy down the throats of the third world in the first place. Divide and conquer sound familiar to you.
Karamba, you cannot compare the justice of islam to that of democracy. May be democracy is suitable for the west, but not Africa. May I point out to you that most logical thing to do when a certain set of principles do not fit a people or society a change of course is needed. If 40 years of empty promises is not enough I dont know what will be.
For three decades, Jawara and his cronies fooled the Gambia people with their theatrics and now Jammeh is threatening to do worse for the next three decades. If you have an unsuitable system (democracy) in play unsuitable people (Jammeh and co)will be running the show.
The fact remains that the legacy of democracy is Africa is tainted by woefully underdevelopment. I used to be a firm believer in democracy but no more. I hope we can all wake up and smell the coffee. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 21:54:59
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
Islam is not native to Gambia either. Is it ok to impose one outside thing but not another? I think people should have freedom of speech and a free vote on how their own country is run.
Why choose Allahs principles? Why not Jesus or Buddah? Democracy should be separate from the religion of a country because not everyong will follow the same religion. In UK I wish it was more separate. No country is perfect, not one. We can all learn from each other.
Gambiabev, islam is not native to the Gambia, true, buts its message is more universal than democracy. The west jammed democracy down the throats of the third world in the first place. Divide and conquer sound familiar to you.
Karamba, you cannot compare the justice of islam to that of democracy. May be democracy is suitable for the west, but not Africa. May I point out to you that most logical thing to do when a certain set of principles do not fit a people or society a change of course is needed. If 40 years of empty promises is not enough I dont know what will be.
For three decades, Jawara and his cronies fooled the Gambia people with their theatrics and now Jammeh is threatening to do worse for the next three decades. If you have an unsuitable system (democracy) in play unsuitable people (Jammeh and co)will be running the show.
The fact remains that the legacy of democracy is Africa is tainted by woefully underdevelopment. I used to be a firm believer in democracy but no more. I hope we can all wake up and smell the coffee. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 22:43:17
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Thanks for the excellent contributions. I must acknowledge the fantastic responses coming from Kayjiatta, dBaldeh and Karamba amongst others keeping this topic lively. There are two sharp knive edges and many thanks to Kayjiatta for that masterpiece about two possible options (desirable and undesirable); which are POLITICALLY triggered by any form of government. Our problems and deficiences with Gambian politics are caused by both the RULING PARTY AND DIS-ARRAY BETWEEN THE WEAK OPPOSITION PARTIES.
Its OPEN DEBATE FOR THE COMMON GOOD OF ALL GAMBIANS and sober reflections and genuine conscience can help sort out MANY SHORT-COMINGS OF THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP, THE POLITICAL MESSES, POLITICAL VICTIMISATIONS AND WILLFUL DENIAL OF LIBERTY AND RAMPANT HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES ETC, ETC.
My approach under this topic is about DIS-ENFRANCHISEMENT, PARTY POLITICS, THE EXPLOITATION OF THE ELECTORATE AND MOBILSATION OF RESOURCES TO USE THE BALLOT BOX INORDER TO INSTITUTE A MORE EFFECIENT AND EFFECTIVE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT. Its more of trying another alternative/IMPROVED approach to that which saw the establishment of STGDP and creation of NADD WHICH SOUGHT UNITY OF THE OPPOSITION PARTIES BUT FAILED THROUGH MANY REASONS. Welcome with ideas that could help us FOCUS, SHARE RESPONSIBILITIES AND DESSIMINATE THEM TO THE NATION AND ACCROSS THE DIASPORAS. NADDs MOU is a good foundation though and STGDP needs to be further boosted, in my opinion. They had succeded to sanction all opposition parties to work out STARTEGIG PLANS PRIOR TO LAST ELECTIONS and got the commitment but some failed because of MANY, MANY REASONS ETC ETC. Some see them as now obsolete but REVIVAL IS FEASIBLE, PROPER COORDINATION OF ANY NEW STRATEGIG PROPOSALS MAY BEAR SOME POSITIVE RESULTS HOPEFULLY.
A simple FORMAT AND STRUCTURE would help us come out with a model UNITED FRONT TO INSTITUTE THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT AND DEMOCRACY WE VIE FOR THE GAMBIA OUR HOMELAND!
Am proposing LAUNCHING A MODEL FORUM that could subsequently be TRANSFORM INTO A UNITED NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY after lots of DEBATES, SEMINARS AND WORKSHOPS TO ADDRESS GAMBIAN DEMOCRACY AND POLITICS BOTH PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE:
FOR THE GAMBIA OUR HOMELAND! WE STRIVE AND WORK AND PRAY! THAT ALL MAY LIVE IN UNITY! FREEDOM AND PEACE EACH DAY! AND JOIN OUR DIVERESE PEOPLES' TO PROOF MANS BROTHERHOOD! LET JUSTICE GUIDE OUR ACTIONS!
Here WE GO PROPOSED LAUNCHING OF; UNITED NATIONAL FRONT FOR:
-RECONCIATION
-INDEPENDENCE
-RECONSTRUCTION
-DEMOCRACY
-DEVELOPMENT (NATIONAL, COMMUNITY AND SOCIO-ECONOMIC)
-SOCIALISM
-PEACE
-PROGRESS
-PROSPERITY
Good GOD OF GREAT OF NATIONS TO THE GAMBIA EVER TRUE!
Am always inspired by OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM AND RESPECT IT AS BASIS FOR ANY GOOD CONSTITUTION AND PARTY MANIFESTO
God bless US ALL!
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Edited by - kobo on 02 May 2007 22:47:19 |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 22:43:17
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Thanks for the excellent contributions. I must acknowledge the fantastic responses coming from Kayjiatta, dBaldeh and Karamba amongst others keeping this topic lively. There are two sharp knive edges and many thanks to Kayjiatta for that masterpiece about two possible options (desirable and undesirable); which are POLITICALLY triggered by any form of government. Our problems and deficiences with Gambian politics are caused by both the RULING PARTY AND DIS-ARRAY BETWEEN THE WEAK OPPOSITION PARTIES.
Its OPEN DEBATE FOR THE COMMON GOOD OF ALL GAMBIANS and sober reflections and genuine conscience can help sort out MANY SHORT-COMINGS OF THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP, THE POLITICAL MESSES, POLITICAL VICTIMISATIONS AND WILLFUL DENIAL OF LIBERTY AND RAMPANT HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES ETC, ETC.
My approach under this topic is about DIS-ENFRANCHISEMENT, PARTY POLITICS, THE EXPLOITATION OF THE ELECTORATE AND MOBILSATION OF RESOURCES TO USE THE BALLOT BOX INORDER TO INSTITUTE A MORE EFFECIENT AND EFFECTIVE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT. Its more of trying another alternative/IMPROVED approach to that which saw the establishment of STGDP and creation of NADD WHICH SOUGHT UNITY OF THE OPPOSITION PARTIES BUT FAILED THROUGH MANY REASONS. Welcome with ideas that could help us FOCUS, SHARE RESPONSIBILITIES AND DESSIMINATE THEM TO THE NATION AND ACCROSS THE DIASPORAS. NADDs MOU is a good foundation though and STGDP needs to be further boosted, in my opinion. They had succeded to sanction all opposition parties to work out STARTEGIG PLANS PRIOR TO LAST ELECTIONS and got the commitment but some failed because of MANY, MANY REASONS ETC ETC. Some see them as now obsolete but REVIVAL IS FEASIBLE, PROPER COORDINATION OF ANY NEW STRATEGIG PROPOSALS MAY BEAR SOME POSITIVE RESULTS HOPEFULLY.
A simple FORMAT AND STRUCTURE would help us come out with a model UNITED FRONT TO INSTITUTE THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT AND DEMOCRACY WE VIE FOR THE GAMBIA OUR HOMELAND!
Am proposing LAUNCHING A MODEL FORUM that could subsequently be TRANSFORM INTO A UNITED NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY after lots of DEBATES, SEMINARS AND WORKSHOPS TO ADDRESS GAMBIAN DEMOCRACY AND POLITICS BOTH PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE:
FOR THE GAMBIA OUR HOMELAND! WE STRIVE AND WORK AND PRAY! THAT ALL MAY LIVE IN UNITY! FREEDOM AND PEACE EACH DAY! AND JOIN OUR DIVERESE PEOPLES' TO PROOF MANS BROTHERHOOD! LET JUSTICE GUIDE OUR ACTIONS!
Here WE GO PROPOSED LAUNCHING OF; UNITED NATIONAL FRONT FOR:
-RECONCIATION
-INDEPENDENCE
-RECONSTRUCTION
-DEMOCRACY
-DEVELOPMENT (NATIONAL, COMMUNITY AND SOCIO-ECONOMIC)
-SOCIALISM
-PEACE
-PROGRESS
-PROSPERITY
Good GOD OF GREAT OF NATIONS TO THE GAMBIA EVER TRUE!
Am always inspired by OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM AND RESPECT IT AS BASIS FOR ANY GOOD CONSTITUTION AND PARTY MANIFESTO
God bless US ALL!
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Edited by - kobo on 02 May 2007 22:47:19 |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 22:55:19
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Mansasulu,
You seem to be treating the wrong symptom with the wrong pill. It was Jawara who called his rule democracy. Whether he adhered to or deviated from the right course is something left to sound judgement. Jammeh on his part condemns democracy outright. If Jawara failed, was it because he was everything democratic and failed because of that? For Jammeh, he came by coup; the most undemocratic inroad to political power. There is no material to assess him so long as we are looking at democracy. I cannot see what is so woefully wrong with democracy that you will not subject it to critical assessment before passing a sweeping verdict. |
Karamba |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 22:55:19
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Mansasulu,
You seem to be treating the wrong symptom with the wrong pill. It was Jawara who called his rule democracy. Whether he adhered to or deviated from the right course is something left to sound judgement. Jammeh on his part condemns democracy outright. If Jawara failed, was it because he was everything democratic and failed because of that? For Jammeh, he came by coup; the most undemocratic inroad to political power. There is no material to assess him so long as we are looking at democracy. I cannot see what is so woefully wrong with democracy that you will not subject it to critical assessment before passing a sweeping verdict. |
Karamba |
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somita
United Kingdom
163 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 01:20:01
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| Karamba, i will defend any form of government that respect the dignity and sancity of human life and provide good education, housing and health care for its people. If such a system is call democracy it should be more of co-incidence rather than by design. I think we can talk about our objectives as people, where we want to be as a society in the next 10 years without mentioning the concept of democracy, yet the end results would be similary if not the same. For every soceity wants good health care, good education, good housing, jobs peace and stability, i strongly believe we can pick and choose what would best work for us achieve our objectives in the short and long run. |
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somita
United Kingdom
163 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 01:20:01
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| Karamba, i will defend any form of government that respect the dignity and sancity of human life and provide good education, housing and health care for its people. If such a system is call democracy it should be more of co-incidence rather than by design. I think we can talk about our objectives as people, where we want to be as a society in the next 10 years without mentioning the concept of democracy, yet the end results would be similary if not the same. For every soceity wants good health care, good education, good housing, jobs peace and stability, i strongly believe we can pick and choose what would best work for us achieve our objectives in the short and long run. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 02:30:13
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"I am still having trouble wrapping my head around the notion that democracy equates development. Certainly, Gambia was more democratic during the time of Jawara and we were not better off. Senegal is more democratic than Gambia, and yet still we rank higher than them on the HDI. You look the so called progressive democracies, Botswana, South Africa and read about the social problems they are facing and you cringe.
The fact of the matter is that demopcracy promotes greed, it has no respect for the communual ties that have cemented African societies for so long and above all it leads to moral decadence of a society. If that is the price to "development" then I do not want it.
I have no problems with development. What I have a problem is the price at which we are attempting to gain development. The problem is following a system that does not suit us for over 40 years and expecting it to all of a sudden fit our ethos".
jambo Posted - 02 May 2007 : 11:50:12
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Jambo: nobody has put forward
the notion that democracy equates development. Democracy does not necessarily bring about development. Rather democracy is an important corollary (precursor) of development. I have always argued that part of the reasons capitalism prevailed over communism is that the capitalist western world succeeded in democratizing while the communist eastern world failed to democratize. This is why I think Gorbachev's Glasnost and Perestroika was an important step but it somehow failed short.
Anyway democracy is just about "sharing power" . That is why government is divided into different branches who can check each other so that true power belongs only to the PEOPLE (the electorate). Now based on this scenario Mr. Jambo you will see that the problems of the Gambia is partly the failure of democracy because only one branch of government , that is the executive wields absolute power. In this circumstances as evident in the Gambia there is no true debate and so the national resources are not efficiently utilized. Consequently , there is massive poverty , high illitracy, and social discontent. The vast majority of our people do not fit into the Gambia's economic system to the point that we in the diaspora have to send money almost every week to support them. There is afeature news on Mali this week that points to this problem.
You said that "democracy has no respect for the communal ties ... of African societies" , well you need to explain this because i do not see how.
Democracy and moral decadence ? Jambo unless you are religiously dogmatic you will acknowledge that man's concept of morality is not an absolute constant whether in a democracy or not.
You said that "democracy is a system that doesn't suit us for forty years " , come on my friend we did not even have it for forty years. That is the problem.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 02:30:13
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"I am still having trouble wrapping my head around the notion that democracy equates development. Certainly, Gambia was more democratic during the time of Jawara and we were not better off. Senegal is more democratic than Gambia, and yet still we rank higher than them on the HDI. You look the so called progressive democracies, Botswana, South Africa and read about the social problems they are facing and you cringe.
The fact of the matter is that demopcracy promotes greed, it has no respect for the communual ties that have cemented African societies for so long and above all it leads to moral decadence of a society. If that is the price to "development" then I do not want it.
I have no problems with development. What I have a problem is the price at which we are attempting to gain development. The problem is following a system that does not suit us for over 40 years and expecting it to all of a sudden fit our ethos".
jambo Posted - 02 May 2007 : 11:50:12
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Jambo: nobody has put forward
the notion that democracy equates development. Democracy does not necessarily bring about development. Rather democracy is an important corollary (precursor) of development. I have always argued that part of the reasons capitalism prevailed over communism is that the capitalist western world succeeded in democratizing while the communist eastern world failed to democratize. This is why I think Gorbachev's Glasnost and Perestroika was an important step but it somehow failed short.
Anyway democracy is just about "sharing power" . That is why government is divided into different branches who can check each other so that true power belongs only to the PEOPLE (the electorate). Now based on this scenario Mr. Jambo you will see that the problems of the Gambia is partly the failure of democracy because only one branch of government , that is the executive wields absolute power. In this circumstances as evident in the Gambia there is no true debate and so the national resources are not efficiently utilized. Consequently , there is massive poverty , high illitracy, and social discontent. The vast majority of our people do not fit into the Gambia's economic system to the point that we in the diaspora have to send money almost every week to support them. There is afeature news on Mali this week that points to this problem.
You said that "democracy has no respect for the communal ties ... of African societies" , well you need to explain this because i do not see how.
Democracy and moral decadence ? Jambo unless you are religiously dogmatic you will acknowledge that man's concept of morality is not an absolute constant whether in a democracy or not.
You said that "democracy is a system that doesn't suit us for forty years " , come on my friend we did not even have it for forty years. That is the problem.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 02:37:52
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| Jambo , the post I just responded to below may have been by Mansasulu. If that is the case my regrets. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 02:37:52
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| Jambo , the post I just responded to below may have been by Mansasulu. If that is the case my regrets. |
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ylowe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 08:03:46
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KAYJATTA,
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU THAT DEMOCRACY DOES NOT EQUATES DEVELOPMENT. THE TICKET OUT OF POVERTY IS ECONOMIC FREEDOM AND NOT DEMOCRACY. DEMOCRACY IS A SECONDARY FACTOR AND IT HELPS WITH ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY, ETC, ETC. CITIZENS OF CERTAINS COUNTRIES ARE OPPRESSED BUT THEY ENJOY A HIGHER STANDARD OF LIVING THAN SOME DEMOCRACIES. I STILL WANT DEMOCRACY FOR THE GAMBIA TOGETHER WITH ECONOMIC FREEDOM. |
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ylowe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 08:03:46
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KAYJATTA,
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU THAT DEMOCRACY DOES NOT EQUATES DEVELOPMENT. THE TICKET OUT OF POVERTY IS ECONOMIC FREEDOM AND NOT DEMOCRACY. DEMOCRACY IS A SECONDARY FACTOR AND IT HELPS WITH ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY, ETC, ETC. CITIZENS OF CERTAINS COUNTRIES ARE OPPRESSED BUT THEY ENJOY A HIGHER STANDARD OF LIVING THAN SOME DEMOCRACIES. I STILL WANT DEMOCRACY FOR THE GAMBIA TOGETHER WITH ECONOMIC FREEDOM. |
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Alhassan
Sweden
813 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 09:08:31
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Kayjatta,
I only hope that most of the words and sentences written here shall be put in pratice some day. Remember, paper does not refuse ink. It is very easy to sit and write a lot on how to rule a country and all what not , but it is the pratice that is more important.
Paper tigers have decieved Gambia before and we must be careful of them in the feature. There has been too much talking and writing from the US to Koina in the Gambia, but nothing has materialised.
What is the next step? When shall the words be put to pratice? |
Edited by - Alhassan on 03 May 2007 09:10:12 |
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