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jambo
3300 Posts |
 Posted - 02 May 2007 : 15:54:02
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| point taken mansulu, if the style of shoe does not suit, get another style. my problem is this, change is there, but people are not getting the message on how to go about it. It is still secret whispers in Gambia. if the newspapers and media had more freedom things would be discussed and walls would be broken down. |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 16:24:08
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Mansasulu,
To blame democracy for problems in Gambia or elsewhere around the globe is a misconception. The principles of democracy stay sound and clear. If people choose to be greedy as you implied, that is part of their personal disposition. It has nothing to do with democracy not working or not. Over Radio Gambia in the Jawara days, democracy was relayed to Gambian audience as meaning a state of affairs where those who did nothing had nothing to harm them. That was a deliberate distortion of facts and a total deviation from principles. For all that time, Gambians in their majority did not share the values of democracy as required for decent political co-existence. On the side of the current regime, it is something else. The current president keeps fuming words of condemnation on democracy; calling it a Western creation. He is not able to come with anything but gets stuck on the so-called Africa what? All we know about Africa's domestic politics is based on caste system and exploitation of the masses by tribal kings and their cronies. That is nothing suitable for modern society. There is a new historical epoch and all nations deserve to share the goods of modern advancements. It is very narrow, sticking on a belief tagged as AFRICAN when the world is spinning in the grips of whole MANKIND. If there was such a concrete barrier to shield Africa from rest of the world, there would not have been any African Western trained doctors, Lawyers, Computer specialists, Managers, Accountants, Engineers, etc. Why would Africans not keep to the huts rather than going for the luxury and comfort of other people's creation? What we have is MANKIND. That is not to be taken as though our natural diversity is not true. We can do better by setting good standards. |
Karamba |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 16:24:08
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Mansasulu,
To blame democracy for problems in Gambia or elsewhere around the globe is a misconception. The principles of democracy stay sound and clear. If people choose to be greedy as you implied, that is part of their personal disposition. It has nothing to do with democracy not working or not. Over Radio Gambia in the Jawara days, democracy was relayed to Gambian audience as meaning a state of affairs where those who did nothing had nothing to harm them. That was a deliberate distortion of facts and a total deviation from principles. For all that time, Gambians in their majority did not share the values of democracy as required for decent political co-existence. On the side of the current regime, it is something else. The current president keeps fuming words of condemnation on democracy; calling it a Western creation. He is not able to come with anything but gets stuck on the so-called Africa what? All we know about Africa's domestic politics is based on caste system and exploitation of the masses by tribal kings and their cronies. That is nothing suitable for modern society. There is a new historical epoch and all nations deserve to share the goods of modern advancements. It is very narrow, sticking on a belief tagged as AFRICAN when the world is spinning in the grips of whole MANKIND. If there was such a concrete barrier to shield Africa from rest of the world, there would not have been any African Western trained doctors, Lawyers, Computer specialists, Managers, Accountants, Engineers, etc. Why would Africans not keep to the huts rather than going for the luxury and comfort of other people's creation? What we have is MANKIND. That is not to be taken as though our natural diversity is not true. We can do better by setting good standards. |
Karamba |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 17:01:16
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Mansasula
You seem to equate democracy with Americanisation.
There are many forms of democracy across the world. Many Western EUropean countries combine free markets with a social awareness and policies to support the weakest members of society.
For a society to progress there does need to be some individual motivation, otherwise what is the point in working hard?
In general people work hard to fed, clothe and educate their children. Then the motivation might be for nice houses and cars, and nice clothes. ALso to be able to travel. These motivations can coexist with a social conscience. They can also coexist with religious beliefs. It is a part of human nature to want to be able to do well for your family and the future generations of your family through inheritance.
Material things don't take the place of spiritual things if you still care about others more than things. It is a matter of balance.
The danger is when the material thigns becme EVERYTHING to you. 
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 17:01:16
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Mansasula
You seem to equate democracy with Americanisation.
There are many forms of democracy across the world. Many Western EUropean countries combine free markets with a social awareness and policies to support the weakest members of society.
For a society to progress there does need to be some individual motivation, otherwise what is the point in working hard?
In general people work hard to fed, clothe and educate their children. Then the motivation might be for nice houses and cars, and nice clothes. ALso to be able to travel. These motivations can coexist with a social conscience. They can also coexist with religious beliefs. It is a part of human nature to want to be able to do well for your family and the future generations of your family through inheritance.
Material things don't take the place of spiritual things if you still care about others more than things. It is a matter of balance.
The danger is when the material thigns becme EVERYTHING to you.
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 19:17:57
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Karamba, I am not advocating to shield Africa from the rest of the world and neither I am advocating for any tribal kings and the politics of croinism. Democracy as a system cannot rival the Justice of Islam. Allah has commanded us to follow a system HE has provided and we said no. Instead we followed the desires of the west. Until we turn back to the laws and will of Allah, tyranny and oppression will prevail.
One of the most fundamental premises the west is preaching to the third world and Africa for that matter is that without democracy we will continue to live in poverty. We have conveniently forgotten that provisions come from Allah. We implemented a democratic system and look at the results. We voted for a tyrant who changes the constitution as he sees fit and we go about moaning for another five years. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 19:17:57
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Karamba, I am not advocating to shield Africa from the rest of the world and neither I am advocating for any tribal kings and the politics of croinism. Democracy as a system cannot rival the Justice of Islam. Allah has commanded us to follow a system HE has provided and we said no. Instead we followed the desires of the west. Until we turn back to the laws and will of Allah, tyranny and oppression will prevail.
One of the most fundamental premises the west is preaching to the third world and Africa for that matter is that without democracy we will continue to live in poverty. We have conveniently forgotten that provisions come from Allah. We implemented a democratic system and look at the results. We voted for a tyrant who changes the constitution as he sees fit and we go about moaning for another five years. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 19:45:11
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Mansasulu,
True practice of ISLAM is the most manisfest conduct of DEMOCRACY. In Islam, there is EQUALITY. In democracy too, there is equality. In Islam, there is SHARING. In democracy, there is sharing. The concept behind handing out ZAKAAT as known in Islam is what others call welfare system. In Islam, the rich hand out ZAKAAT to the poor as way of bridging the need gap. The essence of PAY-AS-YOU-EARN (PAYE) in taxation is way of making the high income bracket beef in for the low income while all the social amenities are equally shared. Rich and poor alike, public parks are open 24/7 for all. In strict sense, the social justice preferred in Islam is what democracy is meant to establish for the citizenry. You have failed to recognise the effects of corruption and selfishness when it comes to how custodians of shared resources go about it. Again, deviation and corruption by people in position of trust is not the same as failure of principles. When principles are deviated, the results that obtain cannot be blamed on the system that such principles provide. In that context, when the whole of Gambia deviate from the principles of DEMOCRACY whatever that results to cannot be blamed as failure of democracy. If a person crashes on a faulty carrier, it might as been that the warning was ignored. Are you sure that DEMOCRACY was properly tried and failed in Gambia? |
Karamba |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 19:45:11
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Mansasulu,
True practice of ISLAM is the most manisfest conduct of DEMOCRACY. In Islam, there is EQUALITY. In democracy too, there is equality. In Islam, there is SHARING. In democracy, there is sharing. The concept behind handing out ZAKAAT as known in Islam is what others call welfare system. In Islam, the rich hand out ZAKAAT to the poor as way of bridging the need gap. The essence of PAY-AS-YOU-EARN (PAYE) in taxation is way of making the high income bracket beef in for the low income while all the social amenities are equally shared. Rich and poor alike, public parks are open 24/7 for all. In strict sense, the social justice preferred in Islam is what democracy is meant to establish for the citizenry. You have failed to recognise the effects of corruption and selfishness when it comes to how custodians of shared resources go about it. Again, deviation and corruption by people in position of trust is not the same as failure of principles. When principles are deviated, the results that obtain cannot be blamed on the system that such principles provide. In that context, when the whole of Gambia deviate from the principles of DEMOCRACY whatever that results to cannot be blamed as failure of democracy. If a person crashes on a faulty carrier, it might as been that the warning was ignored. Are you sure that DEMOCRACY was properly tried and failed in Gambia? |
Karamba |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 19:55:51
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Islam is not native to Gambia either. Is it ok to impose one outside thing but not another? I think people should have freedom of speech and a free vote on how their own country is run.
Why choose Allahs principles? Why not Jesus or Buddah? Democracy should be separate from the religion of a country because not everyong will follow the same religion. In UK I wish it was more separate. No country is perfect, not one. We can all learn from each other. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 19:55:51
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Islam is not native to Gambia either. Is it ok to impose one outside thing but not another? I think people should have freedom of speech and a free vote on how their own country is run.
Why choose Allahs principles? Why not Jesus or Buddah? Democracy should be separate from the religion of a country because not everyong will follow the same religion. In UK I wish it was more separate. No country is perfect, not one. We can all learn from each other. |
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somita
United Kingdom
163 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 20:07:10
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Too often the debate about democracy deviates into a debate about ideas and definition. On paper democracy is the best system of governance, i have no doubt about that, in an ideal world i would love Gambia to have a democratic government but after 40 years of hope, even the most optimistic person becomes pessimistic.
For democracy to work effectively the masses have to make informed choices, where this is lacking as in Gambia, I do not see how democracy would deliver anything in Gambia apart from empty promises. How we should build up the bases to creating an environment where people can make informed choice requires a thinking outside the current box.
The big question is how can we make democracy to work better for our people, i don't have the answers but how i wish someone has for i cannot stop thinking that every generation hope for a better Gambia is just wishful thinking. |
Edited by - somita on 02 May 2007 20:08:29 |
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somita
United Kingdom
163 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 20:07:10
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Too often the debate about democracy deviates into a debate about ideas and definition. On paper democracy is the best system of governance, i have no doubt about that, in an ideal world i would love Gambia to have a democratic government but after 40 years of hope, even the most optimistic person becomes pessimistic.
For democracy to work effectively the masses have to make informed choices, where this is lacking as in Gambia, I do not see how democracy would deliver anything in Gambia apart from empty promises. How we should build up the bases to creating an environment where people can make informed choice requires a thinking outside the current box.
The big question is how can we make democracy to work better for our people, i don't have the answers but how i wish someone has for i cannot stop thinking that every generation hope for a better Gambia is just wishful thinking. |
Edited by - somita on 02 May 2007 20:08:29 |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 20:32:53
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Somita,
You have brought it out clear enough when you mentioned the need to induce Gambians to make INFORMED CHOICES. It is that information we are now sharing. If you MAKE UP your mind that democracy has failed and game over, that is worrying. When we open the box of brains in Gambia, one would expect those like yours shining to give light. When you or someone else with light decides to turn off that light, when and where will the rest see the way to making informed choices. You seem to be giving up quick enough. To pursue a logical debate gainfully requires a free and open mind. There is no ready-made answer. Lot of things are changing by demands of times. About 100 years ago, only few households in London had private telephone. Today, some households have more than one on top several mobile phones. This is not because Alexandra Bell invented the telephone. Other developed countries share similar experience. In the housing industry, changes are more visible. From looks to inner deco, the difference is massive. All these are products of MANKIND. Gambia is so small and yet with lot of strategic locational advantage. Where leaders think a country's resources belong them (the elected few) nothing works. What is happening in Gambia is the most serious deviation from the ideals of ISLAM. But, as Bev clearly observed, do we have to choose an ISLAMIC state or go for what is most suitable? |
Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 02 May 2007 21:53:07 |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 20:32:53
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Somita,
You have brought it out clear enough when you mentioned the need to induce Gambians to make INFORMED CHOICES. It is that information we are now sharing. If you MAKE UP your mind that democracy has failed and game over, that is worrying. When we open the box of brains in Gambia, one would expect those like yours shining to give light. When you or someone else with light decides to turn off that light, when and where will the rest see the way to making informed choices. You seem to be giving up quick enough. To pursue a logical debate gainfully requires a free and open mind. There is no ready-made answer. Lot of things are changing by demands of times. About 100 years ago, only few households in London had private telephone. Today, some households have more than one on top several mobile phones. This is not because Alexandra Bell invented the telephone. Other developed countries share similar experience. In the housing industry, changes are more visible. From looks to inner deco, the difference is massive. All these are products of MANKIND. Gambia is so small and yet with lot of strategic locational advantage. Where leaders think a country's resources belong them (the elected few) nothing works. What is happening in Gambia is the most serious deviation from the ideals of ISLAM. But, as Bev clearly observed, do we have to choose an ISLAMIC state or go for what is most suitable? |
Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 02 May 2007 21:53:07 |
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