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Cornelius
Sweden
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 12:53:11
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This is a good place to start:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Holocaust+testimonies[/red]
I have read Goldhagen’s book and have a copy of it. I read the reviews before I read the book about eight years ago - it’s not a full accounting, only a partial accounting, and we can all agree about that.
Danny J in his own words:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/gergen/goldhagen.html
There’s a lot of incontestable Holocaust literature and every Holocaust-denier is probably the victim of some vicious revisionist propaganda or rabid Nazism is circulating in his and her heart. It is out of the fullness of heart that we usually speak and I have spoken to more than a dozen Germans who know and quite a few survivors of the holocaust, including Mr. Ferenc Göndör who received a special prize from the King of Sweden to honour his work of informing people about the Holocaust.
Holocaust Remembrance Day
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Holocaust+Remembrance+Day&spell=1
On Holocaust Remembrance Day we honour those martyrs, the Jewish victims and they were all murdered for one reason only: they were murdered because they were Jews.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Ferenc+G%C3%B6nd%C3%B6r&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-&p=Ferenc%20G%c3%b6nd%c3%b6r
Yes, we know all about Irving, Faurisson and their ilk. We chased the latter out of town (Stockholm) when he was here to give a public lecture – must have been in 1996 or so. Did he run? He ran helter-skelter
Someone was asking me exactly what happened with Faurisson. Well, he had been billed to give one of his ”talks” at a ”lokal” in a Stockholm suburb it was in May 1992.
The Reception Committee was in place and waiting when he arrived. He was severely pelted with rotten eggs and tomatoes.
Once again the bugger had miscalculated. The crazy baldhead was chased down the road
As said earlier he fled in a very undignified manner.
When Ilse (my sister-in-law, born and bred in Berlin) arrived in Stockholm, from Berlin in 1941, she says that she had not heard about the Holocaust.
Saturday night I told one of my Jewish mentors about this and he was not surprised.......a nineteen year old leaving Berlin in 1941......
I also have a friend who studied medicine in China who only heard about the extent of the Cultural Revolution after he left China (wasn’t he reading Time and Newsweek, I wonder? He says that he had not heard about any cultural Revolution at all, whilst he was in China - whilst Mao's Cultural Revolution was going on......
Well, ignoramus that I am I asked Professor Google (who too is not omniscient), asked her Lemon Time's very important question and up popped some data:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Do+you+know+how+many+Jews+Hitler+and++the+Germans+killed%3F&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
L. T. is certainly one of my best friends and I would never refuse him anything. Begging is out of the question. We brothers are not beggars. You know that song? |
Edited by - Cornelius on 24 Oct 2006 21:05:41 |
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LEMON TIME
Afghanistan
1295 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2006 : 13:13:56
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Cornelius after all, we are our brothers keepers.Jack you are very sensible. |
There is no god but Allah |
Edited by - LEMON TIME on 25 Oct 2006 00:03:28 |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 16:19:56
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2006 is the 50. anniversary of the Nuremberg Trials. In Germany there is a public discussion going on about the question if they were pure victor's justice or not.
For me as a democratic anti-fascist it is almost painful, but I have to admit that other crimes during World War II, like the strategically useless bombing of Dresden and other German cities in the last days of this war (Dresden: some say up to 250.000 dead, but at least 40.000 died), or the equally needless Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombs (at least 350.000 died within the first few months after the bombing, followed by many thousands later), stayed unpunished.
Though I am strictly against death sentence, and though I regret that UK and US were not taken to an international court for these war crimes I think the Nürnberg trials gave the right answer to (some of) the Nazi crimes. Finally we must not forget that thanks to these trials decades later the International Court of Justice at Den Haag could be established.
N.b.: Goldhagen's 'Hitlers Willing Executioners' saw devastating critics by most of his international fellow historians. Of course he is right in the point that the Hitler regime had countless helpers. But as this goes without saying, and as it is also true for any other terror regime, I can see nothing brilliant or groundbreaking in his idea. Goldhagen fails to examine the inner logic of such regimes, the terror and fear consuming minds and heads. In this sense, almost every mass society, given the 'right' (i.e. crazy enough) and well-funded dictator (Hitler/NSDAP was financed by big German companies, and even US companies had business relations with Nazi Germany) has the chance to end up as a society of 'willing executioners'. |
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LEMON TIME
Afghanistan
1295 Posts |
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Biran
United Kingdom
10 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 17:01:17
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| Is history not repeating itself when we see what is happening to helpless Palestinians today? |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 17:29:40
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Biran, I fear history always repeats itself.
There was no 'charismatic' dictator in Ruanda, but thousands of Hutus (were) turned into frenzied, hysterical butchers within a few weeks time. One man alone, like Stalin in the former USSR, could never have deported thousands of people to the Gulags, but he found many, many 'willing executioners'. What made the killer squadrons in Guatemala slaughter 40.000 Mayans? Which madness befell the Red Khmer? What made US soldiers use Agent Orange against the Vietnamese without a twinge of conscience? An endless list.
This is not meant to excuse what happened in Germany. It should open our eyes to what we all can be used for. WE ALL. Period. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 17:53:28
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quote:
Originally posted by serenata
2006 is the 50. anniversary of the Nuremberg Trials. In Germany there is a public discussion going on about the question if they were pure victor's justice or not.
you are right, it would be argued that there was an element of victor's justice there. but if you loose a war you cannot determine you fate.
it will be very difficult to argue against the Nuremberg trials partly because of the uniqueness and gravity of the crimes. but there are questions. some people who were professional soldiers were tried for warfare not for killing jews. if i'm correct the Karl Donitz, the last President after Hitler died was tried for sinking British merchant ships using U-boats. some american generals supported him in that they also used similar tactics against the japanese. during the Falklands War an Argentine ship (Belgrano) outside the exclusive war zone was sunk in a similar manner killing hundreds of sailors.
Dresden was bombed but so was Coventry by the germans. its not about payback but about winning at all cost.
those brilliant scientists who developed pioneering rockets like the V-2 rockets that bombed London & Coventry where innocent people died like in Dresden were never tried. ofcourse that would be victor's injustice. they were captured , flown to Britain and the USA where they helped develop the military machine of those countries after WWII.
a good example is Werhner von Braun. without him America would never be in space. he was instrumental in building NASA was was its first Director. i can name you several others who lived and lectured in many univeristies in the US where they were highly respected as scientist despite their background.
everyone follows their interests, Serenata even during war. |
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Cornelius
Sweden
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 18:04:31
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We all? Kindly leave me out of your nazi hu-ss-y booby trap
You surely mean you all.
The criminals.
Having said that, Dresden is as regrettable as Hiroshima and Nagasaki
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Edited by - Cornelius on 25 Oct 2006 18:26:59 |
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Biran
United Kingdom
10 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 18:13:59
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| How would a young Palestinian whose home has been bulldozed and the whole family killed think about an Israeli? Are they not acting towards the Palestinians like the Nazis? Come-on! |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 18:20:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Biran
How would a young Palestinian whose home has been bulldozed and the whole family killed think about an Israeli? Are they not acting towards the Palestinians like the Nazis? Come-on!
i guess the same way as an israeli family whom children have been blown up in a Cafe in Jerusalem.
its more complicated than that |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 18:22:11
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| lemon time just watched it interesting piece of editing things coul dhave been very different |
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Biran
United Kingdom
10 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 18:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
quote:
Originally posted by Biran
How would a young Palestinian whose home has been bulldozed and the whole family killed think about an Israeli? Are they not acting towards the Palestinians like the Nazis? Come-on!
i guess the same way as an israeli family whom children have been blown up in a Cafe in Jerusalem.
its more complicated than that
You are right. The point I was trying to make is the way “SOME“ Jews are acting today when you compare to their history under the Nazis.
We cannot keep on generalising. Just as Blacks can't go on blaming whites for the 500 years of slavery, Cornelius can't continue blaming every German for the crimes committed by Hitler and his regime. |
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Cornelius
Sweden
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 18:44:01
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i asked ma google ( as part of the general discussion, where is the worthy foe?)
But we are here to discuss, to get more personal. Personalised views.
After taking a cursory look at the ma-google link, the discussion can truly begin - so don't hide behind curtains, behinds, hijabs, skirts or more iron curtains, schmuck & svarten******. C'mon, don't giggle, don't be shy, don't wriggle and wag just bring it all on! Put the whole hussy in the booty.
I haven't kicked real #ss in real time for a long long time.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Are+they+not+acting+towards+the+Palestinians+like+the+Nazis%3F&btnG=Google+Search |
Edited by - Cornelius on 25 Oct 2006 19:30:33 |
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Biran
United Kingdom
10 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 18:55:31
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| The monkey and gorilla may claim kinship, but the monkey is monkey and the gorilla a gorilla - Nigerian Proverb |
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Cornelius
Sweden
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2006 : 19:04:03
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Do you know how gorillas choose the leader of their tribe?
(If you don’t know, let me know and I'll tell you the story of an experiment conducted by a British zoo, in the darker jungles of Africa.
They have their criteria for choosing a leader.
Not much unlike those who may or may not have an agenda to terminate anyone.
Y’all.
Gorilla
http://www.tophitsonline.com/lyrics.php?songid=60865
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