 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Watchman
Gambia
174 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 16:23:50
|
Turk, you make a lot of salient points. I did not however selectively choose Singapore in my comments, I also talked about Malaysia. Democracy has nothing to do with Judeo-Christianity or Islam. If you look at the history of indigenous African socities, democracy florished although it was called by another name. Also, most of the world's wealthy nations, in terms of GDP and quality of life, are influenced by liberal democracy while stagnant ones like Arab nations and African and Latin American ones are resisiting popular, democratic rule. Maybe we can compromise. How about we take large doses of democratic ideals for our nation's political process and see what good it brings? After all, we have never truly experienced real democracy even under the defunct Jawara regime.
Check out my lates on The Gambia by the way:
http://escapefrombanjul.blogspot.com/2010/10/gambias-lost-generation.html |
For your own good, read:
www.escapefrombanjul.blogspot.com |
 |
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 17:37:52
|
Rassimian.
I understand your point about ‘civil war’. I did not really mean you are advocating violence.
The most recent time I was in Gambia, in May and I will be there again early 2011. The violence in Gambia is no more than, violence in London, Toronto, Washington. The violence in Gambia does not involve weapons. There are some instances but not bad. I have never felt unsafe in Gambia. We must have totally different experience. Especially Gambians in general does not have aggressive nature. I think your point about violence is exaggerated. I agree about your point about opposition. I also agree that there is a risk of another coup. In any case, the change of leadership will not make any significant change. The change would come in a long run.
Watchman
Singapore has little Islamic tradition with as well, and but Malaysia is very conservative society which is influence heavily by Islam.
Democracy has a lot to do with the Greek-Judeo-Christian tradition. The secularism for example, came from the Martin Luther, moderate Christian tradition. Democracy was first established in Greece. Historically, democracy first born, nurtured and developed in Europe for centuries along with all the stimulus from capitalism, wealth from colonization, slavery, industrial revolution etc. The nations which does not have similar historical context have difficulty to transition to democracy while there are a few exceptions .
Can you give me some example about where democracy flourished in Africa? Looking forward seeing some example.
I kind of agree the co-relation of GDP, quality of life liberal democracy. But I think the wealth may result GDP but, I have not seen as an ideology liberal democracy generating wealth and quality life.
Don’t you think your point about Arab, African and Latin American resistance about the democracy may have something to do with not having the historical process western nation had?
I don’t agree the idea of liberal democracy will solve and bring significant value and positive changes for Gambia. I strongly believe that the priority for Gambia is different. It is wealth generation, socio-economic investment.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 23 Oct 2010 17:41:44 |
|
|
|
Watchman
Gambia
174 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 17:41:02
|
Democracy has existed in Africa since the beginning of millennia. The best example hits really close to home. The Serers of Senegal are one of the most egalitarian socities in Senegambia. Their deep sense of autonomy was such that they fierecely resisted attempts of conquests from the Wolof, Islamists and others. This resistance could be seen in the physical measures taken by these freedom loving people who lived in very shielded and hard to penetrate terrain.
To say that democracy is not an African charateristic is an insult to the great civilzational contributions of the continent to the world. Not to mention, the Greeks, who are alleged to have created this sort of rule, stole so many things from the "dark continent" that history decided to get lazy and attribute democracy to them.
We gotta rethink how democracy came to be Turk. Maybe we should collaborate and do some research, write a book or something? 
www.escapefrombanjul.blogspot.com |
For your own good, read:
www.escapefrombanjul.blogspot.com |
Edited by - Watchman on 26 Oct 2010 00:08:36 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 18:33:22
|
Watchman
Can you provide some reference about 'liberal democracy' in Africa. Your serere example is poor one as you are referring their love of freedom and strength to resist outside control which is not exactly a case for 'democracy' existed in Africa. I did not question their love of freedom of African from other tribes/religious/nations. Or I did not question their ability to resist the invasion. Sorry, by just saying that I am not buying it. (No offense). And resisting outside invasion is not exactly a democracy.
Also, not having democracy is not an insult to any nation or ethnic group. For example, Islam does not have democracy either, and that is not an insult to Muslims. Or Communism is not democracy, but no communist will be insulted for not being democracy. Democracy is a tool to me. If it fits to the society, it can be used and I think it is overrated. And, to me, it is not a big deal not having 'liberal democracy'. To me important criteria for political system, a system that fits.
Can you also provide some reference and collaborate about Greek's stealing 'democracy' idea from the dark continent. I need some supporting argument and references.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11732 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 19:59:09
|
| |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 20:00:27
|
| "I need some supporting argument and references." better do some research turk if you are that hungry. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
Edited by - toubab1020 on 25 Oct 2010 20:00:50 |
|
|
|
Watchman
Gambia
174 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 22:54:51
|
Momodou, you are an absolute life saver. That is one excellent PDF of information on African democracy. I especially like the sub chapter "The African Communocracy".
Turk almost had me cornered.I owe you one brother.
www.escapefrombanjul.blogspot.com |
For your own good, read:
www.escapefrombanjul.blogspot.com |
Edited by - Watchman on 26 Oct 2010 00:07:44 |
|
|
|
Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 00:49:42
|
Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization
..."In Black Athena, an audacious three-volume series that strikes at the heart of today's most heated culture wars, Martin Bernal challenges Eurocentric attitudes by calling into question two of the longest-established explanations for the origins of classical civilization. To use his terms, the Aryan Model, which is current today, claims that Greek culture arose as the result of the conquest from the north by Indo-European speakers, or "Aryans," of the native "pre-Hellenes." The Ancient Model, which was maintained in Classical Greece, held that the native population of Greece had initially been civilized by Egyptian and Phoenician colonists and that additional Near Eastern culture had been introduced to Greece by Greeks studying in Egypt and Southwest Asia. ..." |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 03:04:23
|
Janko, I have been waiting for you. I know what motivates here to post. Very emotional person with lots of information. Black athena is controversial. Some even called this pseudohistory. Regardless, Egyptians, 'Afro'-'Asiatic' roots, is one of the greatest civilizations existed. Afro-Asiatic civilization of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Anatolia; all these ancient civilization existed 2000-3000 years ago. And, the relationships, influences of different cultures, civilizations is natural which is no stealing. This great civilization ended 2000 - 2500 years ago. What happened between now and the liberal democracy that we relate today. Greek philosophies inspired enlightenment in EUROPE, industrialization and enormous wealth due to colonization slavery, scientific advancement, technology finally French revolution is the basis of liberal democracy we know today. What we have today in western world, liberal democracy, can relate like a chain to renaissance. Liberal democracy is product of Europeans. That is a clear. It is nurtured and applied by western civilization. Not in Africa, Not in Asia, not in Latin America, not in Islamic world, not in Hindu world, not in Bud-ism. But this is never a big deal. Liberal democracy is overrated. It is an illusion it is the best. It looks best, due to the wealth and superior technology.
I am more interested in what fits. I don't like the idea of social engineering to change people for the ideology. Instead, my approach is to find the ideology that fits to the people which is more practical. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11732 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 08:41:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Watchman
Momodou, you are an absolute life saver. That is one excellent PDF of information on African democracy. I especially like the sub chapter "The African Communocracy".
Turk almost had me cornered.I owe you one brother.
www.escapefrombanjul.blogspot.com
You are welcome. Turk is a smart guy. I thought he will use the next six months reading the works of Cheikh Anta Diop in order to find the answers he has been asking but instead of acknowledging the resource presented to him he finds a new prey, Janko. |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 10:38:06
|
| Momodou - It takes time to read. I only comment on what I know and understand. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 26 Oct 2010 14:16:12 |
|
|
|
Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 11:01:33
|
Momodou, you´re getting to know my guy, but he knows very well I would not take his night fish
turk, you get my point, and am sure you are versed with the fact that history is subjective and all history is controversial in one way or the other.
turk, in as much as you want to be self-styled and independent in your thinking, your world-view is very, very Europhonic, you need a decolonization therapy...  |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 11:32:09
|
Janko - I like fair, realistic, reasonable and objective thinking and never afraid of being self critical, practical and refused to be emotional. Me europhonic? Why? Because I stated that 'liberal democracy is western'. Or I was being critical on the subjective historical information you provided! Or I dismiss your piece of information which back 2500 to 4000 years as a valid reference to existence of African 'liberal democracy' TODAY. You are trying to prove the relevancy of 'Liberal Democracy and Africa with the information is dated trillion years. I did not take side, it was neutral. I wish you were capable to have wisdom based on the a lots of information and knowledge you had.
If I was euro-phonic,
- I would not acknowledge, Liberal democracy is overrated due to its wealth generated by colonialism.
- I would not encourage for Africa to have their own system that fits themselves.
- Like mainstream Euro-phonic people, I would dictate Western values on Africa.
Let me summarize your view and my view on political approach on Gambia.
Janko: Theoretical approach. (a.k.a. Chief) Social Engineer. Implement Euro-phonic system, liberal democracy, on Gambian Society.
Turk: Practical approach (a.k.a. Indian). Not a social engineer. Implement a system based on the need and reality.
Janko: Emotional. Can't accept criticism, get offended. Idealistic.
Turk: Logical. Open to criticism, skin is thicker than crocodile. Realistic.
Janko: Ideology is objective.
Turk: Ideology is a tool.
Janko is so emotional, he thinks, turk does not think Gambia deserves 'the best'. Janko does not realizes that turk objective is same but the approach is different. Also, Janko thinks, turk is insulting Gambians when turk presents the argument that 'liberal democracy would not work for Gambian reality. Janko argues, just for the sake of, just to prove a point that Gambian is capable of implementing democracy.
I agree on disagreement. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 26 Oct 2010 16:24:58 |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 14:22:23
|
| turk,discuss what you want please,your constant nit picking and personal observation of posters is unnecessary. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 14:41:46
|
touby
quote:
turk, in as much as you want to be self-styled and independent in your thinking, your world-view is very, very Europhonic, you need a decolonization therapy...
I was responding the personal observation about me and clarifying my actual thinking. Got it? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
© 2005-2024 Nijii |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
