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toubab1020
12311 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 12:09:35
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Turk,I think that Karamba is somewhat blinkered in his thinking and is unable or unwilling to view the wider aspect of "the problem" as you are I agree with you in this case.Can I ask a personal question? are you a black African.?
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Originally posted by turk
toubab
Touby
As you can see Karamba can't answer your critical question. He is stating the issue but he can't answer to 'How'? Because he does not understand the issue that the problem of Gambia is not Person A or Person B. His understanding is Jammeh is the issue. That is not right. The issue is socio-economic.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 13:22:53
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Interesting views
Resizing the coat
Ineffectiveness and inefficiency are linked to allocation and competence not insufficiency. Wealth is not the solution to inefficiency and immorality in society.
The problem of bureaucratic inefficiency is directly linked to competence, which in turn is linked to the criterion determining who gets the job. If Janko gets the job because of his social capital i.e. tribe, social class etc. and not his credentials then Janko´s inefficiency means the wealth is utilized ineffectively.
Innovativeness does not come in times of economic boom but in times of economic difficulties, recessions/depressions. What happens to the redundant policemen or the unemployed depends on the competent and innovativeness of bureaucracy. Even whereas it is governments’ duty to create jobs and possibilities for citizens there is no government in the world that can or has directly employed all workers.
Resizing the coat according to size
That a monthly salary cannot sustain a family has to do with how competently the wealth is managed and allocated. Say, the government’s number one priority is to maintain law & order. The executors of law & order must be able to sustain their families with their salaries, to be incorruptible. Consequently it would be better to have 50 substantially paid policemen than 100 underpaid and corrupted policemen. Therefore it is more of a bureaucratic inefficiency, mismanagement, than the need for an increase in wealth.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 14:55:59
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Janko,Again another blow directly on the head of the nail  ,why can us simple souls see so clearly what has to be done to solve "the problem" ?,it is much better to try something which is likely to work rather than having talks and confrences with a lot of bala bala then doing nothing  until the next confrence and more bala bala,I am really pleased that I am not alone in my thinking  |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 19 Apr 2010 14:58:06 |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 21:43:41
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Toubab1020,
Will you let us know from your bank of information what is blah, blah, and what is not blah, blah?
Judgement is one of those easily done things. It is much harder to get perfect judgement though. Your poison is someone's good food.
If you were part of people who stayed in harmony for generations only to have their peaceful coexistence snatched away by someone in lethal arms. This person warned he would kill. Later you saw more people getting killed including youthful innocent school children. This person was very poor to the core. Eventually he claims the richest. His job is a political one and he turned into an economic monster over time.
He controls the poor nation's resources and frequently sweeps people as in a show.
You still want to doubt this man's profile. That is up to you. Everyone is free to an opinion. Yours is yours totally.
For me THE biggest threat to Gambia is Yaya Jammeh and that opinion, I will only change until when the greedy bully is out of the ring. Call that any name.
Consistent with the subject matter of this thread, Yaya on many occasions uses tribalism as wedge to divide Gambian society in ways never known before. That is evil. |
Karamba |
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toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 22:53:50
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Bala Bala or Blah Blah if you prefer, is Talking for the sake of talking only,no decisions are propsed or impleminted, just talk and more talk, getting no where.I am not going to get involved with personalities in politics,I don't know enough information,what I will say is ,right and good is just, what is not is unjust,some ideas are good others are bad.I was trying to discuss a way in which Gambians could become contented and have a full belly send their kids to school and live a life that is happy,who leads the country is nothing to do with me I am not a Gambian,just a man who loves Gambia.
There are good people and bad people all will get their just deserts in The Second world, have no doubt about that,although you are content to let me hold my own opinion ,thanks for that.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 19 Apr 2010 23:00:42 |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 23:13:39
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Sorry, Toubab,
The issue at hand transcends PERSONALITY or POLITICS as you put. It is about D I S T R I B U T I O N of shared resources.
Those hungry people you so compassionately recognised have someone sitting on the bag of food feeding zoo animals. That is an issue beyond POLITICS. It is all about real life.
Having to raise up such issues is important to some people; may be perceived by your good self as not so important.
People have to enquire where the shared resources are being allocated and at what ratio. That is not just politics or debate about persons.
Civilised human interplay generously provides that fewer people take charge of matters of public accord.
Should you prefer not bother, fair enough. That, however will not stop those interested to pursue what interests them.
On your plate, take what suits you. |
Karamba |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 23:49:34
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Not really Janko. The funds are essential to have a government that works well. How about a judge is competent to be a judge as he or she has a degree but still corrupted. So whether you are competent for the job or not you may corrupt. Money is the most important single factor required for effective governance. Without it, you can’t have a proper system that works.
So question is why 50 well paid policemen are better than 100 underpaid corrupted policemen? Because 50 well paid police has better wealth? You are so right, 50 wealthier policemen are better than 100 policemen who don’t have the wealth to feed their family who may corrupt for the every opportunity. Thanks for proving us that ‘wealth of the civil servant’ is the most important factor for dealing with the corruption.
Yes toubby.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 00:10:36
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turk,
it is the logic of "a penny wise and one pound foolish";...topic and context, generalizations... well … as you wish?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 06:18:56
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Janko
Your words are pretty, but far from the truth. I tell you the truth. My words are not pretty, but you know the truth hurts.
Let us face it we are talking about Gambia that has a budget 5.474 Billion Dalasi it is about 150 Million Euro. A small town budget in Europe. That means government has to spend 100 Euro per a Gambian citizen per year. 8 euro per month. 2 euro per week.(1.5 Million population) That would include loan payment, health, education, security, infrastructure and tourism. It is difficult task.
France on the other hand has 1,525,000.000,000 for 62000.000 people. 25,000 dollars per French per year, 500 dollar per week. 70 dollar per day. 3 dollar per hour. That means france is spending the amount of money for citizen per hour as much as gambia spends in one week.
So Janko, answer me now, how you can provide for service for Gambians and you have only 2 euro per week. While your argument is valid but insignificant. Money matters. Your being stubbern will not change the fact that money matters when it comes to provide government services. And do you think France has 2 euro per week to spend for each citizen, would that be enough?
http://allafrica.com/stories/200912211420.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_budget_by_country
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 20 Apr 2010 06:23:24 |
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toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 12:54:49
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KARAMBA
As you yourself said in your discussion:
"Those hungry people you so compassionately recognised have someone sitting on the bag of food feeding zoo animals. That is an issue beyond POLITICS. It is all about real life.
Having to raise up such issues is important to some people; may be perceived by your good self as not so important."
This is what its all about I am pleased that you now get my point.
Personalities are not important people are.
quote:
Originally posted by Karamba
Sorry, Toubab,
The issue at hand transcends PERSONALITY or POLITICS as you put. It is about D I S T R I B U T I O N of shared resources.
Those hungry people you so compassionately recognised have someone sitting on the bag of food feeding zoo animals. That is an issue beyond POLITICS. It is all about real life.
Having to raise up such issues is important to some people; may be perceived by your good self as not so important.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 20 Apr 2010 12:56:29 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 18:19:19
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quote:
Your being stubborn will not change the fact that money matters when it comes to provide government services.
Your facts become fallacies when applied to the wrong question. The question you are answering with your facts is; “that money matters when it comes to provide government services”. Well, that is not the question or my point. But you can keep on with your monologue, if you wish.
Penny Wise
Well, fact(s) become fallacies when taken out of context or applied wrongly; hence they are not universal as you want us to believe. My question or point is; how to use what is available to get maximum gain. (ex. 50 instead of 100 policemen) My implicit point of departure is the logic: “a penny wise”, to use what you have to maximise achievement.
Therefore it matters to have competent bureaucrats in the position of allocating the little resources/wealth so as to get the maximum gain. However, to utilize the resources efficiently and effectively needs seeing beyond the social capitals of tribe, region, class, gender etc.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 20 Apr 2010 19:42:30 |
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toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 18:38:08
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Janko,I agree,there appears to be a divergence of views,one side wants to blame personalaties and the other side wishes to discuss concrete proposals that may solve the situation,I think that all sides agree that money is a basic constituant part of the situation,the division of the money to "the people" and should virtually all power be retained as it is apparently now.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 22:18:15
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Janko
That is not your question or your point. That is my point. You have valid point but is not significant. Yes, it is better to be efficient and use your resources effectively. My point is that the priority of Gambia is to develop economically first instead of worrying about the benefits of democracy. That is number one priority. Even, one may consider democracy as an obstacle for the growth. Look at how China is growing economically while there is no democracy. Yes, touby, re-distribution is good. If we have 100 units, you get the half, I get the half. That is good. But what is the half of 0?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 00:43:34
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Toubab 1020,
Please take home this other bit. It is because someone sits with lot in excess that those people are without. My point is about EVEN DISTRIBUTION. When people become custodians of public resources, they need to respect the concerns of others.
From whatever part of this world you come, there are people who take advantage of position by extent of greed or what you call it. In UK if that is where you come from, the talk about MPs expenses is a hot dish on the menu of public talks. Just recently, three MPs are dragged to court for excesses and they have fallen back on tax payers' money to have their legal fees paid.
In Gambia too, people entrusted with public position do take undue advantage by going excess.
That bit about humans going in excess of their limitations is a bigger issue manifested many places in rich and poor countries alike.
My own take is with one person in Gambia who happens to be the chief custodian of public resources and goes in excess of his limitations. May be in your country too, there are people like those we have in Gambia. May be due to your economic standards, it only matters to the press. For us in Gambia, we feel the bite much deeper due to our skeletal resources.
Politicians can take deep bite (sorry you hate politics) on the fat national cake of rich nations and not being noticed. In contrast, the smallest cut from national cake of poor countries gets easily noticed. That is why public thieves are quickly noticed in poor countries. Not just the media gets to know but ordinary people see it too.
But, again, your views may differ from mine and that difference when we both learn to realise the better.
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Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 21 Apr 2010 01:01:02 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 00:53:44
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quote:
Even, one may consider democracy as an obstacle for the growth. Look at how China is growing economically while there is no democracy.
turk
China may be undemocratic but not ineffective/uneconomical.
Well, can you imagine the combination; “undemocratic infectivity”, ineffectively undemocratic, where would that lead. It does not make sense to be ineffective and uneconomical with the little wealth one has and hope to be effective and economical when that wealth increases. Tell me, is it possible to increase wealth in the midst of wastefulness, how?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 21 Apr 2010 01:40:07 |
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