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salimina
253 Posts |
 Posted - 19 May 2006 : 17:03:31
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somita, thats what we called data mining( select few points and base your arguments on). Is a very dangerous way of making decisions.
Bro, one thing i want to clarify is, is very difficult to know who is a mandinka,jola and even wollof in our already diluted society.Some of the people they might call jolas might be mandinkas.And some they call mandinkas might be wollofs.For example,ceesays can be found in both mandinkas and wollofs.The same applies to contehs,bojangs,etc. You can also find jattas in mandinkas as well as jolas.Is a long list.
We are so mixed. So i think we should be cautious what ever we are saying.Is very hard to differentiate tribes by just surnames. |
Edited by salimina |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 17:57:15
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quote:
Originally posted by somita
Dembish, I am disappointed with your so called research to say the least, its not your kid-on research that chuned my stomach rather Kondorong remarked that followed it. Together I can assert without fear of exergeration that you could easily edit the next edition of daily observer and the readers will not realise it ( little bit over the top ....but you can see my point).
I know its tempting for me to jump to conclusion but I will hold my nerves until you make available all the data that you have collected. I was expecting a proper data collection produre not elimentary listing which am sure my sister in Grade 5 could have done a better job.
Its hard to convince anyone in their right mind with the exception of Kondorong, with such a scanty statistics, that make no mention of individuals merits for a position or individuals educational authority or other qualify individuals that could have fill the position and were not selected because of their tribe. Is it true that you have fomulated an opinion and went looking for statistic that would back you up ...a very dangerous course. You have successfully demonstrated your ignorance as far as statistic is concern, if anything your so call research results show we are far from an established tribal institutionalisation.
In research one has to show consistency to produce a respectable results, may be you should take a list all the government department, take note of the top 5 or specific number of officials, check their educaitonal, work experience, civil service background and tribals lines, only and only then that you can produce some respectable results that can add value or merit your grave conclusion. I am very worried about tabloid style research of picking and choosing aspect that fits your opinion and marshal them to sway readers opinion. I'm sure daily observer does just that and very successfully.
What does his posting have anything thing to do with me. I did not support or condemn his posting. I only stated that i was a long list.
I dont mince my words and i am not afraid of anyone. I speak my mind and if i am wrong i accept it. But hey don't attack me for no reason.
I am just disappointed in your line of attack which i think is baseless, premature, lacks credit and cannot stand the slightests of a scrutiny. Is it wrong to say that the list is long. Ofcourse it is a long list.
Weak minds discuss people. Please desist from personal attacks and lets discuss ideas which will leap us forward. To call me as ".. not with my right mind.." is an insult and i demand your immediate apology. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
Edited by - kondorong on 19 May 2006 18:01:20 |
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Dembish
Gambia
284 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 18:13:21
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| Kondongron don't waste your time replying to somita and co, his reaction shows he is just trying to guide his side, but the uncompromising truth is before every gambians eye, So why the fuss somita.I have not even finish the reasearch yet you started to flaming, take it easy broth and lookforward to more revelations.The truth could be hot when said at times, and the heat is always felt by the guilty ones. |
There is no egg without a chicken, and no chicken without egg. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 18:21:48
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I am just disappointed in him and personally, i have just decided to overlook. Sweeping statements are not signs of maturity. One has to be able to defend a line of thought and i have tried many times to justify my believes. They may be wrong sometimes, but i don’t attack individuals or personalities. I only do so within the context of a policy framework or a burning national issue.
THE STATEMENT THAT I WAS NOT IN MY RIGHT MIND IS OFFENSIVE BUT THEN AGAIN, I HAVE LEARNT THAT COMMON SENSE IS NOT COMMON AFTER ALL. SO I WILL OVERLOOK HIS COMMENTS AS ADVISED. I REST MY CASE.
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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Dembish
Gambia
284 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 18:45:00
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| I took somitas remarks with na pinch of salt and his personal attack on individuals simply tells me that indeed he is a very ignorant person otherwise in modern democracy each in entitle to his or her openion.if his openion is contrary to mine he should take it in good faith But am afraid that is my few of thing and he can't change that.Let him comeforward with evidences as I have started doing to back up his side the people will geoge, that is fair play,other wise he better of shutting his mouth up period. |
There is no egg without a chicken, and no chicken without egg. |
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LEMON TIME
Afghanistan
1295 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 19:42:51
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| wow i was missing lots |
There is no god but Allah |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 19:46:30
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sensible and substance arguements always scare people who live on personal attacks. If you don't have a point and can't keep quite you resort to personality issues.
There are so many grave issues affecting our society that personality attacks should always be left unanswered. Take note guys, empty barrels makes the loudest noise. So the best policy is counter a personal attack with intelligent and mature lines of reasoning.
This is no wonder why Pa Nderry's online paper(Freedom newspaper) is reduced to personal life issues without substance. The man is vocal, but does not have much to offer in terms of issues.
So my appeal to you all is to put our brains together for a better Gambia and world. Issues should be discussed with open minds and we must not allow anybody to take our minds of the most fundamental problems confronting us. It is our time and history will judge us harshly if we fail to take the moral obligation to play our parts effectively.
Always remember to respond to personal attacks is to lower your credibility and self esteem. That is my benchmark....
Peace |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 20:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by salimina
somita, thats what we called data mining( select few points and base your arguments on). Is a very dangerous way of making decisions.
Bro, one thing i want to clarify is, is very difficult to know who is a mandinka,jola and even wollof in our already diluted society.Some of the people they might call jolas might be mandinkas.And some they call mandinkas might be wollofs.For example,ceesays can be found in both mandinkas and wollofs.The same applies to contehs,bojangs,etc. You can also find jattas in mandinkas as well as jolas.Is a long list.
We are so mixed. So i think we should be cautious what ever we are saying.Is very hard to differentiate tribes by just surnames.
Last names have always been a source of identity in Africa. It is the social security equivalent in the United States or the National Insurance number in the UK. It is, if I may borrow the term, a genetic print of who you are. It also was used to determine which caste on belongs to.
For example, Sanneh, manneh, , sanyang are warrior classes; touray; fatty, Ceesay are from spiritual classes; Baldehs are rulers etc. Please note that this is just an example. Africa is as diverse as the tribes. In some countries there are over 50 languages. Some tribes are unique to only one locality whilst others like Fulani are widely spoken. Wollof is very unique to SeneGambia and so are Jolas to Cassamance, southern Gambia and Guinea Bissau.
What has happened is that overtime, people have moved to other areas where they are a minority and "changed" their tribe to fit in the majority but that does not make them that tribe as far as Africa is concerned. May be i will draw your attention to the African saying that " NO MATTER HOW LONG A PIECE OF LOG FLOATS IN A RIVER, IT NEVER TURNS INTO A CROCODILE". I had JALLOW classmates in Saloum who "claim" to be Wolof. It might be easy to know that Jallow is Fula but in 100 years, the generation that will come up will find it difficult to know who they are.
I think what we need to do is to ask these questions before we loose all that historical information. It is, mostly in the Senegambia region that you will find Ceesays to be Wolof or Mandingos as Jatta. In fact one can safely say that all the Ceesays who claim to be Wolof tend to live in areas largely populated by Wolof. It is therefore easy for Mandingos to "become" Wolof. Mandingo Jarjus tend to live close by Jola communities as in Kiang. Mandinka Njies are also common in Baddibu because of the influence of Saloum on the group. Njie is really wollof.
The problem is we never ask and with the influx of western culture we will soon loose all that rich history. Personally, I only care about tribe as part of the rich culture that it strengthens, as certain ways of life seem unique to a particular tribe. Other than that, I care less who you are as long as you can contribute to the advancement of the community in which you live. Tribes are nature’s way of adding spice to life. It should not form the basis for discrimination, patronage but bring us together as diverse but equal partners in the drive to building a thriving nation where “……… we are judged based on the content of character ……..” and not tribal affiliations.
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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LEMON TIME
Afghanistan
1295 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 20:21:24
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| well said pro Kondorong but i personally dont let TRADITION PARALYZE my mind.Am RECEPTIVE to new IDEAS. |
There is no god but Allah |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 20:28:08
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| Good for you. I hope there are many like you. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 20:43:55
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DEMBISH CORRECTION:
Minister Local gov't is ISMAILA SAMBOU.Malafi Jarju before him was said to be a Mandinka Instead.
Abdou Badjie nominated ambassador to Taiwan is the same as the Commissioner.
Landing Jarjue is not head of Immigration, Musa Mboob is Head of Immigration. |
madiss |
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LEMON TIME
Afghanistan
1295 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 20:53:06
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| DEMBISH is MADIBA right |
There is no god but Allah |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 21:01:08
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| I hope not. You never know what goes on in cyberspace. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 21:29:54
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Kondorong. your right and i sometimes dont get it why people are so uncomfortable with ethnicity/tribe. mind you this is very new. My/our generation are the most educated gambians of all time and yet we are becoming more and more intolerant. your posting reminds me of an discussion i had with a elderly friend from Foni who proclaimed that the best Mandinka in the gambia is spoken in Foni.he was not even mandinka i didnt really care as i dont speak very good mandinka anyway. but the point is the older generation didnt see themsleves are this or that. i think my granddad spoke all the languages. my own mother who is wollof and a nurse would easily remind you that she speaks 'MEDICAL' mandinka . what ever that is
but i must point out to you that your conclusion that people adapt who they are depending on the tribe that is majority on where they live might be true but if you look beyond senegambia then no one has a true origin/surname
its not entirely accurate as over time intermarriage has made surnames take different words in amongst diiferent groups. let look at few examples.
Jobe can be mandinka wollof or serrer. but Jobe is the same as Trawally (traore). in Guinea Bissau they would tell you that Sane/Mane (Sanneh/Manneh) is the same as Trawalleh (trawally/troare).In Mali you find Traore more common and its not restricted to mandinkas but bambara, suso, senoufo etc. if you go further east they would include Watara (Ouattara) etc if you do the link you see its all the same
Njie is the same. you have it in mandinka,wollof,serer,tukulor(fula),bambara,sarakule etc. and its not necessarily that they are a minority within a majority in a certain area.
touray or ceesay is that same.mandinka,wollof,sarakule, we in the gambia think that these are typically Mandinka surnames. In Mali is a typical Fula surname especially around Mopti. in mauritania you will even find it amongst moors, taureg. for example the president of Mali is Amadou toumani Toure (touray). he is a Fula.one of the prime ministers of Niger was also a Cisse (ceesay).
the bottom line is we are all the same and over the last millennium we have migrated mixing here and there.
''santa amut kerr'' -- i think that the wollof saying |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 22:08:35
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You know wollof.
I cannot agree more. When people moved around they changed. Africans are good at calling people differently for the same name. Like some will call demba as Jalang or Bukary or Sidi depending on where you are.
Of course inter marriage has a lot to do with the situation. I was told by and older person in our family that there were some who shared the same last name but actually had a different last name but the older generation years ago had made it a taboo for it to be discussed again.
If i may borrow your examples, of Njie as it appears in fula, serer, wollof and mandinka, i would want to believe that the last name did not just appear in all of them. Migration has influenced the last names to appear in other tribes. Wollofs may have moved around and overtime they become Njie Fulani or Njie Mandinka. The original Njie must certainly be from one tribe.
The then military ruler in Ivory Coast has a Senegalese last name corrupted. I cannot remember the name now. I hope you do.
In a similar way i believe that Trawally, Traoe, Jobe etc that are considered the same is only true in terms of origins. The original last name may have moved to join other communities and overtime they either assume a new surname but still cling on to their heritage. Hence Traore will be the same as Jobe if a Malian moves into a Jobe family and decides to assimilate.
Just like my classmate who is jallow but claims to be wollof. Obviously, this is not true but overtime his generation will be wollofs with Jallow last names. Then in the future people will say that Jallow is wollof. This is how the confusion is created. Hence you have njie mandinka, njie wollof and njie Fula. But the original Njie was from one tribe
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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