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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Oct 2009 : 13:18:37
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Kay most of that which has been posted I have no problem with,my views are not polarised,this subject has two main facets,firstly,less use of a local language,which will undoubtedly have an effect on culture which will be preserved by scholars and lost to the majority of local people over time ,and secondly the usefullness of a language that is readily understood by most of the outside world,if development is wanted by the people then in the case of many countries in Africa the second option is preferable,If the people of those contries want to preserve their own local languages,in effect live in isolation from the outside world ,then local language should be the norm. Language develops over time,there are many words that have become used in English that have been taken from other languages,bungalow and veranda for instance taken from the Indian continent.
Achebe ( I know nothing of this person or his teachings,sorry,but found this utube interview of him talking about language ) has a perspective well worth noting when you quote his view thus:
"Achebe and others contend that English and other colonial languages, as spoken and written by Africans, are hybridized and therefore did not totally represent the European perspective but rather the African perspective. This view, even as limiting in its own way as it sounds, appears more globalizing and less revolutionary..."
My own view is that IF THE PEOPLE WANT DEVELOPMENT then a readily understood language is the way to go,In the UK there are places where local language lives along side by side with understandable English,Newcastle is a case in point,where others who were not born in the local area have some difficulty in understanding ,this is due in the main to a very strong regional accent and not the use of language although many local words are still in use.
As you say in many of your posts " I am not a lawyer" I will end my post by saying "I am not an scholar"
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 05 Oct 2009 13:28:30 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2009 : 13:27:19
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 22:07:21
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Kay, point taken
History has taught us that a revolution is some times necessary to change human perception/worldview for the better. For example the Copernican revolution and other scientific revolutions were a necessity for our present day development … and in many fields of knowledge.
“… inward looking and therefore tribalistic …”
There are very few Englishmen, Americans, French, German that speak, for ex. Mandingka, that does not mean they are inward looking or tribalistic. Mr. G. Brown would not speak Mandingka when he visits Gambia; the French president speaks French when in the USA, does that make them tribalists. No. Or are they not aware of what is happening in the world because they stick to their languages in all circumstances. To speak African languages does not equate rejecting influences from outside or closing boarders or not being active in the global arena but rather it enables a meaningful contribution to the knowledge bank of mankind which is lacking the African perspective and knowledge in all strata.
Being a transnationalist or outward looking is not dependant on speaking English or colonial languages, or African languages. It is dependant on established relations of trade, transportation and other forms of communication. To be a contributor and not a consumer transnationalist depends on what contribution one makes to the wellbeing of mankind, in the field of science and technology and other knowledges. But of course you are right; we have to be guarded in undertaking such big changes not to throw the baby with the bathwater.
To understand Ngugi in his totality is to understand his position as a mediator between the English world and other language worlds including his. He plays a very important role in liking the worlds of languages, a typical transnationalist. I do not think he has anything against speaking or writing English rather he advocates for broadness and inclusivity (Nyo kaana sosso faa …) We have to also understand that language, literature and art are not stagnant entities but dynamic, they adapt and change with time irrespective of language or culture. Changes are gradual and not abrupt. No one is saying Africans should change to their languages over night and that they should not speak or read any other language rather they should negotiate from within the confines of their everyday realities which are better expressed by their languages.
“ … There is an alternative school of thought, largely pioneered by the Nigerian novelist, Chinua Achebe …”
My point of departure on the aspect of tribe consciousness in relation to western education is that tribe has become more renounce with colonialism. On the one hand there had been a cordial coexistence between the tribes before colonialism and other forms of inter-tribal-relationships extended those cordial bonds even further with time. And on the other hand the continent was divided at random not according to old empire boarders or tribal-lines and tribalism as a “political capital” came with colonial rule and independence. I agree with you that English may have been a unifying force under colonialism, for it made colonial rule easy but it lost its unifying force at independence and post independent eras, as we can see.
“…English and other colonial languages, as spoken and written by Africans, are hybridized and therefore did not totally represent the European perspective but rather the African perspective [as well]…”
This view, as you very well said is limited, hence the hybrid English did not purely represent an African perceptive/worldview but a diluted one that is different from a pure African perceptive/worldview. Secondly nothing is stagnant, hybridity is the nature of things; hybrid cultures, hybrid (African) music etc. and we would have had a hybrid language that has its point of departure from the languages of Africa and not colonial languages, hence, hybridity is not only limited to English or colonial languages.
toubab 1020, point taken
“My own view is that IF THE PEOPLE WANT DEVELOPMENT …”
Using African languages does not contradict development; in fact it would enhance a broader and a meaningful development prospect. Making Africa’s languages the analytical tool in understanding African issues, needs and problems would put Africa’s everyday realties in the Centrum and the point of departure in all strata of knowledge, development and for that matter existence.
Stimulating African languages does not equate hibernating from the world, rather the opposite; it would give a better access and assessment of the world around and the ability to negotiate more competent. There shall be no meaningful development without the African languages taking the forefront in analysing the problems of Africa from within.
My view
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 06 Oct 2009 22:10:55 |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 23:02:08
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Janko,I read your view very carefully several times,whilst I agree that for Africans to identify their local problems then it makes sense to discuss that in the local language,having discussions about development and cultural matters cannot be done in any other way,I was perhaps jumping the gun so to speak and arriving at a point where decisions have been made and ways of implementing those decisions agreed,AT THAT POINT the final decision as to joining a Western way of doing things,an Arab way of doing things,or remaining isolated in your own space and maintaining that,changing nothing,this is up to the people concerned,it would be very wrong for anyone outside that local language community to try to force their ways on the people.
One day developed nations MAY think to themselves,why should we give aid to Africa?,why should we interfere in their politics,their wars ,the way their children are educated,the way medicines are used,the way their food is grown ?,we have spent much of our money "helping" most of Africa,we will stop now.We have tried for so long ,let the African peoples do their own thing,Is that wrong? is that right?,DO African nations want to be nationalist instead of tribal? Two very important items I have ommited so far is Africa's VAST mineral deposits and the second OIL AND GAS.All such commodites are wanted by "developed nations".If Africa had nothing would the money still be given? |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2009 : 09:23:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Janko
Kay, point taken
History has taught us that a revolution is some times necessary to change human perception/worldview for the better. For example the Copernican revolution and other scientific revolutions were a necessity for our present day development … and in many fields of knowledge.
“… inward looking and therefore tribalistic …”
There are very few Englishmen, Americans, French, German that speak, for ex. Mandingka, that does not mean they are inward looking or tribalistic. Mr. G. Brown would not speak Mandingka when he visits Gambia; the French president speaks French when in the USA, does that make them tribalists. No. Or are they not aware of what is happening in the world because they stick to their languages in all circumstances. To speak African languages does not equate rejecting influences from outside or closing boarders or not being active in the global arena but rather it enables a meaningful contribution to the knowledge bank of mankind which is lacking the African perspective and knowledge in all strata.
Being a transnationalist or outward looking is not dependant on speaking English or colonial languages, or African languages. It is dependant on established relations of trade, transportation and other forms of communication. To be a contributor and not a consumer transnationalist depends on what contribution one makes to the wellbeing of mankind, in the field of science and technology and other knowledges. But of course you are right; we have to be guarded in undertaking such big changes not to throw the baby with the bathwater.
To understand Ngugi in his totality is to understand his position as a mediator between the English world and other language worlds including his. He plays a very important role in liking the worlds of languages, a typical transnationalist. I do not think he has anything against speaking or writing English rather he advocates for broadness and inclusivity (Nyo kaana sosso faa …) We have to also understand that language, literature and art are not stagnant entities but dynamic, they adapt and change with time irrespective of language or culture. Changes are gradual and not abrupt. No one is saying Africans should change to their languages over night and that they should not speak or read any other language rather they should negotiate from within the confines of their everyday realities which are better expressed by their languages.
“ … There is an alternative school of thought, largely pioneered by the Nigerian novelist, Chinua Achebe …”
My point of departure on the aspect of tribe consciousness in relation to western education is that tribe has become more renounce with colonialism. On the one hand there had been a cordial coexistence between the tribes before colonialism and other forms of inter-tribal-relationships extended those cordial bonds even further with time. And on the other hand the continent was divided at random not according to old empire boarders or tribal-lines and tribalism as a “political capital” came with colonial rule and independence. I agree with you that English may have been a unifying force under colonialism, for it made colonial rule easy but it lost its unifying force at independence and post independent eras, as we can see.
“…English and other colonial languages, as spoken and written by Africans, are hybridized and therefore did not totally represent the European perspective but rather the African perspective [as well]…”
This view, as you very well said is limited, hence the hybrid English did not purely represent an African perceptive/worldview but a diluted one that is different from a pure African perceptive/worldview. Secondly nothing is stagnant, hybridity is the nature of things; hybrid cultures, hybrid (African) music etc. and we would have had a hybrid language that has its point of departure from the languages of Africa and not colonial languages, hence, hybridity is not only limited to English or colonial languages.
toubab 1020, point taken
“My own view is that IF THE PEOPLE WANT DEVELOPMENT …”
Using African languages does not contradict development; in fact it would enhance a broader and a meaningful development prospect. Making Africa’s languages the analytical tool in understanding African issues, needs and problems would put Africa’s everyday realties in the Centrum and the point of departure in all strata of knowledge, development and for that matter existence.
Stimulating African languages does not equate hibernating from the world, rather the opposite; it would give a better access and assessment of the world around and the ability to negotiate more competent. There shall be no meaningful development without the African languages taking the forefront in analysing the problems of Africa from within.
My view
Thanks Janko for your post. This is part of what Chinua Achebe said, and I concur with him:
"...for me there is no other choice. I have been given this language and I intend to use it... . I feel that the English language will carry the weight of my African experience. But it will have to be a new English, still in full communion with its ancestral home but altered to suit its new African surroundings." Achebe, 1975.
English and other colonial languages as spoken and written in Africa by Africans, as Achebe reiterates are stylistically and structurally altered (hybridized) languages, the "new English" capable of carring the full weight of the African experience.
While Ngugi (and the tribalist camp)demand a disconnet from the representations of the colonial experience-English and Christianity-as part of Africa's cultural, political and economic self identification and independence; Achebe (and the globalist camp) insist that language is just a tool for experession, and the writer has a wide latitude to express him or herself in his/her unique cultural perspective. For example if language were viewed as a clean plate without regards to where it is manufactured, the Chinese might use it to eat with his traditonal chopstick, the European will eat from it with a fork and knife, and still the African might eat his cassava leaf soup from it with his fingers...
Furthermore, many attempts to write African languages and to translate African art and literature into African languages have not been very successful. In many instances multi-ethnicity and multi-dialects in African languages have limited their reach and acceptance in artistic and literary expression even among Africans. Many of this "Union Languages" such as Igbo in Nigeria and Gikuyu in Kenya have become 'foreign languages' of their own with little comprehensive and literary relevance to the natives.
However, one must ask oneself; what is the African experience that requires a unique expression in purely an African language?
Is the African experience any different from the experience of other people? How does the African experience fit into the global human experience?
Many of the advocates of African languages as the primary media for African art and literature are largely informed by their personal colonial experience and Africa's many centuries of colonial subjugation. However, language is a double edged sword, and as Achebe argued again; those who give you a language are those who actually liberate you, for that language can be used against them. In actual fact, much of the anti-colonial movements and subversive activities that end up liberating much of Africa were waged using the language of the colonial master. From, Frantz Fanon and Senghore through Nadine Gordimer and Dennis Brutus, to Francis Small, Nkrumah and Mandela; mastery of the colonial language was key in understanding the colonialist and therefore the liberation struggle.
Colonialism and all that came with it are part of the African experience also, and cannot be expunged.
Lastly, I want to state that language is not only a representation of a static culture; it is also a voice of dynamic and transformational technology and development. Therefore, I have to admit that mandingo, my native tongue is less adequate in understanding and dealing with todays complex tecnological and developmental issues than English is. I don't even know how to explain the process of evolution or how the atom works in Mandingo. I just break down without the help of English   . Therefore, we do not have to re-invent the wheel here. I guess comparative linguistic advantage makes just as much sense as comparative economic advantage does...
Thanks. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 07 Oct 2009 09:30:18 |
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sss
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2009 : 13:54:59
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toubad
i don't know whether it is ignorance or prejudice but your views of africans is damn close to being a racist.how will an african language be an hinder to developement when German, French, Chinese have not hinder but rather enhance in unique way.i totally agree with ngo thiongo and will add that who is served when one neglects their own language but adopt instead the language of the masters?it serves the master as you begin to think and act the masters.am not advocating for the total abandonment of the english language but being too dependent on it has resulted in us neglecting to develop our own.english language was less than 250 years ago at par with the mandingo language.it has borrowed and modernised to become what is today.yes mr kay ,you won,t able find a suitable word for evolution in mandingo language just as you won,t in english a few hundred years back. |
THE MESSENGER OF GOD(peace and blessing be always upon him)SAID,"WHOEVER WALKS WITH A TYRANT IN SUPPORT OF HIM,WHILE AWARE OF HIS TYRANNY,HAS ABANDONED ISLAM."At-Tabarani
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2009 : 14:12:56
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sss.
Here we go again,lets just insult those who hold different opinions to our own ,that way we will win,discussion,no, we know best. You have given No indication at all in your posting that you would like to join this discussion you sss have adopted the classic bury your head in the sand syndrome and it will all go away,I know lets call him a raceist he will shut up then, and I will have won, come on get your act together join in the discussion with constructive thoughts if you have any to put forward..
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2009 : 17:28:09
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Kay, point, taken
I have to disagree with your categories; tribalist and Globalist [transnationalist], Ngugi is far from a tribalist as you can get. Secondly, there is no contradiction between Ngugi´s and Achebe’s positions rather they complete each other, they are two sides of the same coin, both striving for the advancement of Africa.
The two statements below are contradictory?
“… new English, still in full communion with its ancestral home but altered to suit its new African surroundings… the "new English"[Yet] capable of carrying the full weight of the African experience…” (Why not, “new Mandingka” or hybrid Mandingka; hybrid refers to something mixed, not pure, creolised)
Activating or using African languages would not automatically lead to the isolation or exclusion of Africa from what is happening in and around the world, no, there is no intention of antagonising the rest because African languages become livelier. To imply underdevelopment and isolation as a result of African languages being used or activated is misunderstanding and misconstruing the idea of activating African languages.
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It is the market that determines the value a piece of art; a sculpture, music etc. and not ethnic diversity. Of course is a question of power as well, whose definition is decisive for setting price and so fort. Secondly the so called “primitive art” in all forms has not only been popular and still popular but a source of inspiration; from Picasso to date. In the art schools, for example, African/primitive art is a very important moment.
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When we talk about the African experience we are referring to a whole atmosphere of thoughts, systems of knowledge and how knowledge is acquired; philosophy, medicine, and so fort.
The Burkinabe Professor Joseph Ki-Zerbos sums it up comprehensively thus; "The Africa which the world needs is a continent able to stand up, to walk on its own feet rather than on crutches or on its head, in vacuous mimicry or escapism. It is an Africa conscious of its own past and able to keep on reinvesting this past into its present and future."
The theme of Ki-Zerbo's work as a historian is “endogenous development”. In 1980 he founded the Centre d'Études pur le Développement Africain (CEDA) in Ouagadougou about which he wrote: "CEDA conducts research which is actually rooted in our land for the purpose of determining one or more global hypotheses of understanding, liable to inspire action by Africans and capable of integrating ecological preservation, the social praxis and cultural identity, key sectors which are almost invariably treated as secondary in development projects."
I do not know many things in Mandingka but does that mean they do not exist. Language is not static nor is the culture it expresses, preserves and manifests, rather language is dynamic and capable of incorporating new ideas; names, techniques, knowhow that come along the way. I have the confidence that with steadfastness, perseverance and determination African languages, including Mandingka are capable and can develop.
Lastly, in which language do you reason, write and speak?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 07 Oct 2009 18:52:39 |
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sss
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2009 : 18:59:53
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i don't that know calling someone racist is an insult but am not trying to win anything.you seems very eager to highlight the negatives in most of postings about Gambians as if you are superior to us.yes,you could still be racist even though you are married to black woman.what the hell does african language has to do with aid.you guys should be giving africa much more than aid for all the exploitation you brought and continue to.
i was mistaken when i said one who adopts another,s language begins to think and act just like the master.no that one thinks and act just like a house ******.we have a few of those in the Gambia who will look down upon their language and its people as uncivilized and backward.
kayjatta,how is adopting ones language in the context wan thiongo is advocatiing tribalistic and inward looking?i dont he advocating for just one language to be atop in a multi ethnic country.
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THE MESSENGER OF GOD(peace and blessing be always upon him)SAID,"WHOEVER WALKS WITH A TYRANT IN SUPPORT OF HIM,WHILE AWARE OF HIS TYRANNY,HAS ABANDONED ISLAM."At-Tabarani
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2009 : 20:50:28
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As I said before:
Here we go again,lets just insult those who hold different opinions to our own ,that way we will win,discussion,no, we know best. You have given No indication at all in your posting that you would like to join this discussion you sss have adopted the classic bury your head in the sand syndrome and it will all go away,I know lets call him a raceist he will shut up then, and I will have won, come on get your act together join in the discussion with constructive thoughts if you have any to put forward..
You apparantly not wish to join in a discussion.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 07 Oct 2009 20:55:26 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 10:39:00
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quote:
Originally posted by sss
kayjatta,how is adopting ones language in the context wan thiongo is advocatiing tribalistic and inward looking?i dont he advocating for just one language to be atop in a multi ethnic country.
SSS, what we are talking about is adopting the traditional native African languages as media for expressing African art and literature.
My argument is that I agree with the school of thought that African art and literature expressed in English or other languages brought by the colonial masters does not alter the meaning and context of African art and literature.
African art and literature, expressed in native African tongue such as Gikuyu in Kenya and Igbo in Nigeria, may appear noble, but limits access to the international audience and non-Gikuyu and Non-Igbo speaking Africans. We have to remember that both Waa Thiongo and Achebe achieved international acclaim because of their accessibility to the international(global) audience. By breaking into the international scene through a medium understood by all, they have been able to present African culture, experience, and perspective to the world, instead of just their tribe.
Both Waa Thiongo ( Petals of Blood) and Achebe (Things Fall Apart) in their English versions are widely used in Gambian schools. High schools kids in the U.S. also used Achebe's books, and one of my best (female) American friends studied Waa Thiongo intensively at graduate school.
When I say tribalism, I mean it in a broad sense of "cultural sectarianism" by over-emphasizing human differences and focusing on parochial local sentiments.
Janko, thanks again for your take. i think you have some valid points in the big picture; but I disagree with the details. Of course the devil is in the details as is often said. Aside from sentiments and the hangover of the colonial experience, your argument appears unapplicable and not cost effective. I argue that you consider "comparative linguistic advantage", a term I coined from "comparative economic advantage" as used by economists. From an anthropological perspective, it is important to preserve every culture and people, but it actually does not make sense to try to re-invent the wheel...
You asked what language I reason, write and speak in. I write in English, and speak in English, mandingo, Wollof, and crudely in Fula and Jola. I guess by "reason" you mean 'think'; ortherwise I do not reason, I think and give reasons. All actions start as a thought and thought is non-language specific. It is largely symbolic. You do not have to be a musician, painter, and sculpture to know that complex ideas and concepts often defy language. My idol,Einstein was known for his famous 'flights on a beam of light', but he often got off, grabbed his violin and played a note or two... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 08 Oct 2009 10:43:06 |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 12:28:55
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| Kay.Well reasoned and explained,the differing views expressed here under this topic show how very difficult it would be to arrive at any concensus in wider discussions ,should that ever become a reality.You sum it up in one phrase "You do not have to be a musician, painter, and sculpture to know that complex ideas and concepts often defy language." I wonder if sss will ever join this discussion,his ideas would be interesting. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 12:46:41
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| Toubab,I am also eager to see sss articulate his position and views regarding this topic without any personal attacks, or accusations. The purpose is to share company and exchange valuable information. I am particularly enjoying, although with disagreement, Janko's well informed points and arguments... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 08 Oct 2009 12:47:39 |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 17:04:49
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| Kay.Like you I await developments in "articulation" |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 08 Oct 2009 17:05:16 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 18:03:28
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Kay, toubab102, points taken
Have no fear for the change of focus for it is not a short-term project, it is a long-term perspective. SSS is right when s/he said the English language was not complete in day one but it took time and borrowing from other languages before standardisation.
What I mean by tribalism in the context of this post is the use of tribe, “political capital” to gain political position(s), privileges, which one would not have had by merit.
I am not limiting the use of African languages to just expressing art and literature but as an analytical tool to understand the world around us, “worldview”. African languages should be the language in national assemblies and in that way open the door of representation for all not only limited to those who can read and write English, as it is today. There is no need to speak of art, sculpture, pieces of music in relation to language hence those forms of art are ‘universal’ but the case of literature is different, books written in English do not have the same audiences as the ones written in African languages and therefore do not serve the same purpose. The ones written in African languages would not only preserve the literature, culture, but would also increase the level of abstraction, which in turn would transform practical languages to abstract languages in developing philosophy, science and so fort.
There is a difference between teaching Gambian pupils about Mama Janké Wally (a Kaabungka king) and about George V (an English king). That point of reference exemplifies a difference in worldview and surely would cultivate a different self confidence and self consciousness. If you translate your idol, Einstein’s theories and contemplations into Mandingka would that not be more effective teaching than would be in English.
All actions start as thought and all thought start with language.
Thought; quote from Wikipedia; “Thought and thinking are mental forms and processes, respectively ("thought" is both). Thinking allows beings to model the world and to deal with it according to their objectives, plans, ends and desires. Words referring to similar concepts and processes include cognition, sentience, consciousness, idea, and imagination.”
It is with language we formulate the world around us comprehensively and understandably. It is through language that we build categories which in turn become the cornerstone of our analytical skill which constructs our thoughts. This is what forms the bases of rational thinking that is why cultures are different, so language is the tool that forms the logic of reason and not the other way round.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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