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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
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Dr Thomas
Gambia
95 Posts |
 Posted - 20 May 2009 : 11:56:46
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Hi Dalton
Thanks for this article. Very enlightning
Tom |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 20:54:34
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I am sorry but I do not share your sentiments. What is enlightening about it? This piece talks about justice but many of the greatest unjust nations can be found in the Muslim world. These so called Islamic scholars especially new converts to this religion [which the author of this piece is] taint the facts and are the biggest fundamentalists and hypocrites as far as I am concerned. I will discredit this paper on four counts and if pushed any further I will demolish it in its entirety.
‘Those who enquire about the basics of Islam are usually told about the "Five Pillars" of the religion. These relate to faith and to practice, but at a deeper level it might be said that there are two great pillars which support the whole edifice. These are Peace and Justice’.
If this is the case, why hadn’t the Islamic faith respected other people and leave in peace those who belonged to other religions instead of spending 1400 years of its history trying to destroy anyone who do not believe in Allah? The stealing of property, the raping of women, enslaving people and murder? Is this peace? Is this justice?
The Christian faith is just as guilty but this topic is about the Islamic faith.
‘The Quran praises those who always act "in the light of truth" and tells us: "Perfected are the words of your Lord in truth and justice". It tells us also: "Behold, God enjoins justice and good actions and generosity to our fellows...” and it commands us never to let hatred lead us into deviating from justice’
‘Generosity to our fellows’! Yeh right! I see more generosity in the poor old African Muslim than in the multi millionaire Arab living in Saudi and the East, and from time to time come to London Mayfair casinos with their high-class whores and male prostitutes – even though Islam is their religion. And as regards to the last part ‘never to let hatred lead us into deviating from justice’, I refer you to my first point and previous postings.
‘al-Aakim (the "All-Wise" is another of the names of God in the Quran’.
Uum! Isn’t it interesting that this article deliberate/ignorantly left out the real origin of the name ‘Allah’? I will not beat about the bush. He was the Arab god of the moon [pre-Islam]. A pagan god whose wife was the sun goddess and the stars were their children. This is the origin of the name Allah and the Arabs worshipped him for centuries before the advent of Islam. I bet most African Muslim teachers left that part out when they began instilling Islamic dogma in their pupils at Daara School or when certain Muslims on this site begin insulting African animists – [one of whom will remain nameless].
‘Why is justice so important in Islam? Injustice destroys harmony and upsets balance thereby provoking disorder’.
Ah! Yes! That will explain the fall of the Malaysian dynasty, the fall of Ghana, the execution of many of those who refused to adopt Islam in the 7th century in the Middle east, slavery [pre-Atlantic slave trade], etc, etc.
I have no problem with anyone who wishes to follow this religion, but please read an academic paper thoroughly and question/criticise and cross-reference it before posting any rubbish on this site. Just because it is an academic paper does not necessarily means it is true and nothing but the truth.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 18:09:52
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a very unhappy man then. Tamsier, your distorted and perverted view of Islam will make you sick if you not careful. Islam with all your misguided view of it is growing faster any religion in the world today.
If indeed you and those who think like are you are correct, that wouldn't be happening. In fact you are a fundamentalist as well for the views you hold. You see that word is not a monopolly against muslims. You as a pagan is also a fundamentalist with your strong held believes.
Yours assertions are always bias beyound every logic, and you wish people to forget about all known facts and believe your staunch athiestic views? come on, be serious.
Tell us which muslim army went into Malaysia and Indonesia? Who were the colonisers of the Malay region? Who were the colonisers of Indonesia? Yes, muslim expansionist went into differet parts of the world. some legacies were not good, but overall muslim rulers were just and fair, and that is the view of tones of historians who aren't drunken with rubbish orrientalist cabbages field in many western pro-christain universities. Even those orrientalist are themselves changing their views and restating the truth.
read the exposure of the orrientalist by Edward Saed and Tariq Ali,and even Thomas Arnold and many others. your outdated views will be cured.
Just becus you read some nonsence history and you like the tune of it doesn't mean you can stand the test of facts. The many intelliegent people across the world that are accepting Islam read the facts, they also read rubbish writen by ant-muslims authors in every shape, yet the truth cannot be disquised. By all means, stick with your misquidiance, no one is forcing you, but don't think your errors will be accept here, may be by those who think like you, the tricster missionaries, whom we know about very well. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 20:00:09
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Santanfara,
I love you too, my African [muslim] brother. I know deep down you agree with me and look forward to my rebut of islamic fundamentalist so you can sharpen your knife. I have discussed these issues with you before with reliable evidence and sources. I therefore suggest your revisit our previous discussions to find your answer. I am sure you know where they are [history and religion section].
What pagan fundamentalist acts have I inflicted on anyone? Or to put it another way, name me one pagan African or pagan African organisation or religion that has inflicted fundamentalism against others outside their faith.
In islam, I can name you a couple.
'Yes, muslim expansionist went into differet parts of the world. some legacies were not good, but overall muslim rulers were just and fair...'
Give me one example where they were just an fair before pillaging, raping, enslaving and murdering.
'Islam with all your misguided view of it is growing faster any religion in the world today'.
I am not saying that islam is not good, but just because something is growing does not mean it is good for humanity. Rapist are growing, paedophiles are growing, murders are growing, knife attackers are growing etc - this does not mean they are good for humanity - do they?
peace
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 22 May 2009 21:01:41 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 15:31:00
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Thanks Tamsier, anyway what you are mixing or misunderstanding is that human being tragress when power overwhelmed them. That includes secular power structures, religious power strutures and even instances where pagans have much power in their hand they trangress. Just becus, our own pagan rulers where not able to expand beyond our fronteirs doesn't mean they would have being any different.
In many places that Islam landed, the rulers where largely fair and just. Later rullers became material minded and less religious, this was the main reason the Ottoman empire fall.
Of course i am aware of crimes committed by perverts in the name of islam, just like other crimes are being committed in name of secular democracy and freedom from everything. People make or break an ideology. In the medical field, there are people malpracticing, in the educational field, and many other descipline people commit wrongs and crimes. does that mean those fields are bad for people?
islam is spreading becus it was not the sword that made it appealing to human beings. it is the message of unity of God. That there is no deity worthy for one to bow down to except the one true God.
I have no problem with you exposing crimes that human beings commit,including that by some muslims. But in all honesty, are you ranking muslims as the biggest perpetrator of worst human calaminities? history tell us differently. The Chines cultural revolution headed by Moa was based on Athiesm, how many people died in the war? The Japanise trangression against other people lead to the death of countless number of people, can you say that was right? The western colonilism and military imperailism lead to the continual deaths of countless number of people, what ideology motivated that?
the native african pagan rullers use to expoit our people day and night and levy high taxes on the poor, what motivated them? even the salavery issue, many traditional pagan rullers helped the western christains in large numbers, in fact, Islands like janjabureh were founded by people runing away from slave captors, all engineered by native pagan rullers.
secularism which is the supreme idea today, condone and tolerate crimes on large scales so long as the bidders and benefactor can defend his corner. the war agains the poor Tamels which just ended few days ago was carried out by Hindu racist Sengalise government, what motivated them.
yes, today, some nutcase muslims are fighting and killing innocent people on false pretex. and we as Muslims condemn their actions, yet if one look closely, you will find dublicity and agent provocators aiding and helping this people. So we say, Islam is what muslims shopuld be doing. the actions of people based on greed, hatred, racism, tribalism, corruption and militarism and exploitatvie tendencies have little to do with a religious teachings.
I respect you Tamsier seriously, becus you love Africa and black history. But Islam as a religion is free from all criticism directed at. we don't questions criminals in courts base on their beliefs, we question them base on their crimes. It is indeed funny that, people are questioning muslims based on their faith as if that will discourage people from entering Islam. The old tricks wouldn't work. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 17:01:23
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I can see that we will never be able to see eye to eye as regards to islam. I respect your opinion about islam but i do not agree with it. At least you defended it [Islam] without the need to insult my Pagan Gods or pangools or ancestors which is what tends to happen not only on this site, but by Senegambian muslims - when I rebut islam and they find it difficult to come back at me. As such, we shall agree to disagree.
I have few questions to ask you though concerning your religion:
1. It has been said that [by certain people i know] the introduction of islam and christianity divided Africa. What is you opinion about this.
2. it is said that, the Africans' rejection of their ancient gods in their masses in favour of foreign gods/religion [eg islam and christianity] explains the situation of Africa today - it is a cursed from the gods and the ancestors. Several evidence are used to justify this point, which cannot be simply set aside. For example:
[a] before islam took its 'hold' in tekrur in the 11th - due to conversion and sharia law by the rabel war jabi and his allies, people lived side by side peacefully and the introduction of this new religion led sereres to leave that land and many people on both sides losts their lives at sali;
[b] In the middle ages Africa was not that far behind from the rest of the world when the masses were pagans but the acceptance of foreign religions by weak and coward African who instead of fighting to defend their ancient religion simply converted. india still holds its hindu religion inspite of colonialism and it is more respected and valued by the west than the coward Africans, even some westerners try to convert to indian faiths and demonise African pagan faiths which they have also feed into coward African converts who also demonise the religion of their forefathers.
[3] The fall of the wolof kingdoms in the mid to late 19th century was partly due to their cowardice who instead of rebuting islam, and united based on their pagan faith, they simply converted to islam thinking that islam can help them defend the french when in fact, it paid a key part in their downfall. The survival of the serere pagan states in particular up to the 20th century [1969]was due partly to their strong believe in their gods unlike the weak wolofs whose mass conversion in the 19th century saw the final fall of the last wolof kingdom of jolof.
[4]instead of 19th century African muslim leaders e.g maba jahou bah, working side by side with African pagans kings, they trid to convert or kill them and their people. They were more willing to talk to foreign invaders rather than pagan kings - apart from alhaji omar taal to a small extend. When they began thinking about nationalism, by then it was to late. If the African muslims leaders united their forces and resources with pagan kings instead of trying to kill them and their people, Senegambia for instance would not have fallen to the foreign invaders - after all the british and french have been there hundred years or so earlier but they still did not managed to conquer them the whole of them. That is, for more than hundred years earlier, they could not subjugate - within few years after mass conversion, they all became subjugated.
[5] if allah made the world, were was he before he made it? if he needed nothing to stand on where is he now?
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 23 May 2009 17:24:55 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 11:59:12
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Tamsier
I did not know Africa was united before Islam came. However, for the division we see today, you can¡¦t blame Islam for it. It is European colonization.
quote:
2. it is said that, the Africans' rejection of their ancient gods in their masses in favour of foreign gods/religion [eg islam and christianity] explains the situation of Africa today - it is a cursed from the gods and the ancestors. Several evidence are used to justify this point, which cannot be simply set aside. For example:
Cursed? Is that what your religions talk about? Cursed? No wonder they were dominated by Islam and Christianity.
So how come coward („² your term) Africans gave up their religion so easy. To me this religion must be very weak. I mean Islam is growing despite all the propaganda against it and I did not see many convert to other religion if they are Muslims.
If these Africans were converted to Islam because they want to win against French, that means these people are not really passionate about their religion. Do you see Muslims, they give their life for their family and religion?
I think one of the reasons your religion is dying because Islam has a holy book. It is written. It is not based on local/racial/ethnic. It is universal.
Ummet-i Islam includes from darkest African in Senegal, to blonde Bosnian, from Xinjian Turks to Filipino. It is one God. Allahu Akbar. La ilaha illallah Mohammeden resul-allah.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 24 May 2009 12:10:23 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 16:10:04
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Turk,
If you cared to read my posting you will find that it said 'by certain people I know' so please don't give me your rubbish. As regards to the other points, I can see you want to throw insult at my faith instead of engaging in a meaningful debate [exactly what I was talking about]. As such, I refuse to engage in a debate with you about this issue until you learn some manners. What I know about Islam you do not even know a 1/4 of it about my religion as evident in your posting. I will not tolerate fundamentalist insults against my faith without evidence. I am 6 steps ahead from you and I know exactly were you are going. Before we get there, I'll put a stop to it.
Santanfara,
I still await your response. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 16:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
I did not know Africa was united before Islam came. However, for the division we see today, you can¡¦t blame Islam for it. It is European colonization.
Of course,thats it........the blame culture, blame everyone except yourself,the Europeans have gone for tens of years,progress into the world of today..........not much. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 17:12:07
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Folks,
I find it hard to understand when Islam is wrongly judged from a few while other beliefs are not, because in Islam, the standard of measurement is the Quran and Sunnah. It couldn't be misconstrued any further when people potray Islam as a religion of "violence." One can clearly see the aggresion being directed to Islam, time and again without reason. The fact and the concluding question: How come this religion is still attracting number of converts daily...out-numbering the people who convert to other religions, despite all the negative campaign. To me, I think Islam's progess is tremendous, and poses a threat to the many others that don't like (shun/despise) its doctrines of equality, peace and justice. The Funny world will never stop amazing me. It is all about victimizing Islam. When "cluster" bombs and "B52s" are finishing nations, it is not terror, but when Al-Qaida or Hesbolah or an individual claiming to be a muslim hits, it is terror. I think I made enough postings regarding my stance on terror -whether orchestrated by terror administrations, individuls or violent groups, because. Whoever commits acts of violence on innocent citizenry of this world.....complete the rest for me, please. I think hypocrisy is everywhere. Nations, administrations or individuals can choose to be hypocritical or violent. That doesn't make it factual that Islam, which might be in numbers there...is....The sooner that genuine/un genuine critics start using the "Quran" and "Sunnah" as a reference point, the better we will register appreciation of its teachings and doctrines.
To me, i agree with others taking beliefs. Suratul Kafiroon said thus, "To you be your religion, and to me, mine." This verse speaks volumes. By being aggressive towards Islam, you fall a trap of the same accussations your finger is pointing at. Infact, over the years, Islam received more threats, more aggression, isolation and mal representation -distortion of its clear message, and a harsh treatment to those who practice. While the picture may seemingly be fading away, it is my believe that God Almighty is the sole protector to the Religion. Tolerance and acceptance of others' faith....we will all keep echoing this aloud, but how many of you---I mean some of those hellbent on changing its meaning, are ready to tolerate and accept Islam as it is Friend, I am not saying you will not, but just mean to refer you to the Quran and Sunnah, so you can get "hidayaa."
Long Live Islam!
D... |
"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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Edited by - Dalton1 on 24 May 2009 18:03:42 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 17:53:31
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Dalton1,
'I find it hard to understand that Islam can be wrongly judged from a few while other beliefs are not'.
I have always said that Christianity also has a lot to answer for. If I mention Islam especially in our region, it is because Islam is the dominant foreign religion and the first foreign religion in our area. This does not mean I only have concerns about Islam but I also do have concerns about Christianity. If I talk about Islam, it is merely because of statistics and history. Furthermore, generally speaking [but not always], Christians including those on this site, tend to acknowledge the flaws of Christianity without trying to justify them. All the muslims I know off [and belief me I know a lot], most of those I have read their work or heard and most of the muslims on this site that I have had discussions with do not fully acknowledge the flaws of Islam or where were they are willing to accept the the flaws tend to justify it. I belief that everyone, thing, or religion has flaws. Accept the flaws rather than trying to justify it. This is what gets me fuming. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 18:00:31
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Bro Tamsier,
You mean -flaws of individuals, right?
Trsut me, you know I share your frustration on these flaws, but I am trying to tell you to get a reference point. You are talking about "human" flaws.....even the Quranic verse noted, "Man is created weak."
See my bro Tamsier, the human mind is a flaw in itself. Further, I have a problem when people read books to find fault, instead of the truth. One of the widely criticized areas of Islam -Jihad (Self Struggle.) People get carried away by waves of dellussions, anger, and the urge to misconstue or falsely represent its ideas, without proper understanding of its stance, because even the "agama" lizard will wiggle its tail when the enemy gets nigh...so a defense of self, property and religion must be created. Your daily endeavors for your family's need is struggle. Your efforts to be a good person is struggle. Your efforts to help others in dire need is struggle. Fighting for the sick and oppressed is struggle. Speaking the truth and defending it is struggle....but this is not what they want you and I to know about Islam. They instead want you to see violence in it, as and when the Palestineans being surged by "wateringcan" bombs are retaliating to an Israeli aggression through suicide bombings. They want you to see Iran, Iraq and etc...giving arms to these palestineans but they don't want you to see America, Britain and others sponsoring some of these terror administrations. Maybe hypocrisy and terror needs to be re-defined. As far as my little mind can analyse, it is a human trait. Can't you see, two wrongs cannot make a right? [just for the records, I vehemently condemn both.] I believe people should all live in harmony, as was showed by the Prophet of Islam -Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him and all the prophets and Messengers of Allah, starting from Adam through Esa to the seal of Prophethood."
thanks & Wasalam,
D... |
"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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Edited by - Dalton1 on 24 May 2009 18:45:00 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 18:35:03
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Dalton1
Indeed, but we should not foreget that it is people who 'makes' a religion. Without people to follow it, there will be no religion. Neither should we foreget that the Quran was written by men and so was the Bible. Muslims use what is written in the Quran to justify certain acts. That's why I have never understood certain 'liberal do-gooders' when they say things like 'Islam does not accept the killing of innocent people through jihad, it is a small stupid people who do not have the right to call themselves muslims who do not understand Islam or the Quran'. These liberal hypocrites mostly are not even muslims themselves but belong to other faiths and have never even seen a Quran in front of them never mind what is in it. When muslims use jihad to do their rampage and cite the Quran as authority for their actions, it is because it is permitted by the Quran and [if one care to look deeply] backed up by Islamic custom law - which is acquired through precedence [ususally history].
It is easy to dismiss jihadists [historically or modern age] as - 'oh! they've wrongly interpreted/misrepresented the Quaran'. To dismiss them all as a bunch of fanatics who do not understand the Quran/Islam is gross unfaireness - 'not all can be wrong'. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 24 May 2009 18:37:37 |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 19:00:44
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Bro Tamsier,
Read about Yusuf Islam, formerly Cat Stevens. Here is a great mind that chose to follow the truth...abondoning all other desires including his much desired profession. Follow the life of Imam Wallace Muhammad of Chicago (Rest in peace O loved one of God)...who chose to follow true Islam, and leave all the wealth, fame and human support he would have inherited from his father - the late Elijah Muhammad.Enquire abour Alhaji Momodou Jobe of Budduct, or yet still Imam Bun Jeng of Gunjur,Sheik Omar Futtih, Imam Malik, Sheik Amadou Bamba, Sheik Ibrima Bai Nyass, Sheik Jilani, etc...you know the long list...(May Allah raise their souls to Jannah)
Rgds,
D.. |
"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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Edited by - Dalton1 on 24 May 2009 19:02:57 |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 19:28:29
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In Conclusion, even though I was born to Muslim Parents, like most of you, it is my own choice to be a muslim. No body forced me to be one. If any of you was forced to be a muslim, please raise your hand...( See, no hand!!) if there is none, it further proves that some of the attachments to Islam are clearly vague.
I see you soon again.
I hope you realise true Islam soon, and to be the next Imam Tamsier forwarding these well-argued postings here.
Wasalam & kind regards,
D...
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"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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