 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
mansasulu
997 Posts |
|
|
serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2009 : 09:54:53
|
| This is hysterical; simply mad. |
 |
|
|
Eve
Gambia
344 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2009 : 21:45:01
|
| this is really crazy |
gambian |
|
|
|
jammin
Jamaica
149 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 02:57:44
|
whats the fuss about?
at least he was allowed to live in Senegal until he died.
In Jamaica............ |
Like a colossus He doth bestride the Narrow World |
|
|
|
tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 00:11:38
|
I apologise for coming in late, but this is dreadful. This is absolutely dreadful. Islamic fundamentalism and hypocrisy is spreading on our shores and I find this extremely frightening. Senegambia has a long tradition of tolerance and respect based on tradition long before Islam. In the old days digging up the death in this fashion would have been considered a taboo; a heresy and the breaching of custom and tradition regardless of the deceased’s character during his lifetime. Even the lowest of the low [the slave caste] would not have gone through such level of degradation after death. If this article is correct and I have no reason to doubt it, we really need to sit down and work out whether this is the kind of Islam we want on our shores. I do not know whether the Islamic leaders in Senegal have spoken against such heresy. If they have, rightly so, if they haven’t, they should hold their heads down in shame. For me, this is less about whether the deceased was gay or not, it is more about the breaking of tradition which underlines the very fabric of Senegambian culture and tradition.
They have not just dishonoured the dead; they have dishonoured and shamed his family – who really do not need this, as anyone who has gone through bereavement would testify to. My condolences and deepest sympathies goes to them.
As for Jammin, I would not even dignify your posting with a long response. You are either to young or your simply lack compassion and respect for the dead.
|
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
|
|
|
jammin
Jamaica
149 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 01:30:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by tamsier
I Even the lowest of the low [the slave caste] would not have gone through such level of degradation after death.
I see where you are in the UK. They have democracy there. All men are equal in a democratic society and slavery is vigorously discouraged. People who see others as Slaves and beneath contempt are becoming extinct animals. The world will be a better place when such monsters expire.
The hypocrisy here is; living in a democratic society, but harbour thoughts that men can be slaves.
quote:
Originally posted by tamsier
They have not just dishonoured the dead; they have dishonoured and shamed his family
His family was already dishonoured and shamed when they reared a manchild who was an abomination.
quote:
Originally posted by tamsier
As for Jammin, I would not even dignify your posting with a long response. You are either to young or your simply lack compassion and respect for the dead.
I know I have respect and compassion for the living, At least, those who deserve respect. I will never understand why people say nice things about dead scoundrels at funerals. |
Like a colossus He doth bestride the Narrow World |
|
|
|
tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 02:56:23
|
Jammin,
I will respond to your rhetoric only once because to continue with where you are heading with this would evade from the very essence of this topic.
First, I do not harbour neither do I encourage slavery. Anyone who knows me know that I’m a big supporter as well as member of organisations that attempts to end slavery in certain countries – [and slavery in all its forms]. I have made postings about this very issue [slavery] on several occasions on this site. You failed to appreciate the content of my posting, which focused on a different time and place - ‘in the old days’.
Second, the family was dishonoured and shamed when a bunch of misguided lunatics disturbed the body by digging him up and placing him elsewhere without authority. They do not earn the right; the body was not buried in their back garden but in a grave. The earth does not belong to them.
You call their son an abomination. Abomination by who’s standard? Yours? I will tell you who is an abomination. Paedophiles are an abomination; murderers, drug dealers; rapist etc – they are an abomination. Provided a homosexual is not one of these and the like, they are not an abomination -, they only happen to fancy a member of the same sex compared to the rest of us. Do not let your hatred of gay people colour your judgement. Think outside the box.
Third, the dead are the dead, they cannot come back and fight their corner. Hence the general maxim ‘you cannot liable the death’. You know nothing about this man as to whether he was a scoundrel or not. The only think you know about him is his sexuality, which is actually uncertain if you read the piece carefully. In fact, it did say ‘The body of a man believed to be homosexual’. The key word here is ‘believed’. This means it is not certain. Even if he was gay, that does not necessarily make him a scoundrel.
In a way, I agree with the context of your last paragraph. However, it is inappropriate here. It is inappropriate because you know nothing about the deceased – I refer you to my third point above. In its general context, I too do not appreciate people who think that they have to be nice about a death person only because he/she is death. As far as I am concerned, they have two honourable choices: say nothing or voice their true feelings [provided they know the deceased during his lifetime]. To say nice things when it is insincere is gross hypocrisy in my book and ‘I do not do hypocrisy’- as certain people on this site can testify to.
|
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 22 May 2009 03:11:12 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 03:19:15
|
Tamsier
I thought you have no anti-islamic agenda (More like rhetoric) but most posts here are very critical on Islam/Muslims. Accept it or not. Islam has been in Senegal for centuries. It did not come yesterday. Anyway, that is your right to make critism on anything as part of freedom of speech. Anyway. Do you think non-islamic African countries have better situation in terms of Gay rights? No question Islam is not favoring homosexual act, but is Islam only exception?
Jammin
When I was working in Jamaica, Jamaicans in general did not have positive view on Gays either. I am not comparing if it is better/worse but many Jamaican dancehall lyrics, even some violence (bun the chi maan), even by churches in Jamaica were pretty critical on Gays. So how is the situation now? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 22 May 2009 04:09:38 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 04:08:34
|
The 2007 Pew Global Attitudes Project: "Should homosexuality be accepted by society?"
Country Yes No
Anglo-America
Canada 70% 21%
United States 49% 41%
Latin America
Argentina 71% 21%
Brazil 65% 30%
Chile 64% 31%
Mexico 60% 31%
Peru 51% 43%
Venezuela 47% 50%
Bolivia 44% 49%
Western Europe
Sweden 86% 9%
France 83% 17%
Spain 82% 9%
Britain 71% 21%
Italy 65% 23%
Central Europe
Czech Republic 83% 16%
Slovakia 66% 29%
Poland 45% 41%
Germany 81% 17%
Eastern Europe
Russia 20% 64%
Ukraine 19% 69%
Southern Europe
Bulgaria 39% 38%
Turkey 14% 57%
Middle East
Israel 38% 50%
Lebanon 18% 79%
Palestinian ter. 9% 58%
Kuwait 6% 85%
Jordan 6% 89%
Egypt 1% 95%
East and Southeast Asia
Japan 49% 28%
South Korea 18% 77%
China 17% 69%
India 10% 81%
Malaysia 8% 83%
Bangladesh 4% 84%
Africa
South Africa 28% 64%
Ivory Coast 11% 89%
Ghana 11% 89%
Tanzania 3% 95%
Kenya 3% 96%
Uganda 3% 96%
Senegal 3% 97%
Ethiopia 2% 97%
Nigeria 2% 97%
Mali 1% 98%
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 04:24:43
|
Tamsier
For example some Christian countries like Venezualla, Bolivia, majority does not accept homosexuality. But that can’t be explain with only religion because for example western part of the world acceptance is high while poorer Christian nations have less acceptance. Looks like homosexuality only accepted in western democracies. For example Russia and Ukraine has only 20 percent acceptance.
Israel has only 38 percent acceptance? India the country of Buddhism and Hinduism, almost 20 percent of world population has only 10 percent acceptance.
Now your favorite region of the world! Africa.
Uganda, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Kenya, Ghana, Ivory Cost Christianity did not help to improve the rate for acceptance.
So I suggest you should reconsider about biased Islamic rhetoric when you look at the issues.
The anti-homosexual attitude is not only in Islam.
So now tell me how animist Africa look at the homosexuality. Before I will provide some information on it. Over to you.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 22 May 2009 04:25:19 |
|
|
|
tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 04:53:07
|
Turk
I have no anti Islamic agenda, but that does not mean I have to keep my mouth shut when bad things are done in the name of Islam and is endorsed by Islamic leaders and the Quran. Unlike certain people on this site who are afraid to speak the truth against Islam even when the truth is staring them in the face, in fear of a Fatwa being issued against them or being classed as anti Islam, that does not worry me, and I will speak the truth wherever I find it even if it means being called anti-Islam. Do not underestimate me just because Islam is not my religion. I have studied the Quran in great depth and I can hold my own against the so-called Islamic scholars.
For your information, I know the history of my forefathers' land better than you ever will. In Senegambia - and if I may be so bold to include the Old kingdom of Tekrur [modern day Futa Toro], Islam took its first hold on the latter in 1035AD during the reign of the rebel king War Jabi. In the whole of Senegambia [note of course that in those days there was no such thing as Senegal or the Gambia, my ancestors lived in empires], the very few were Muslims and virtually all were animists. The old royal families were animists and animism was the order of the day in their kingdoms. The majority of the kings who became Muslims did it for political and economic reasons -to strengthen their economic and diplomatic ties with their counterparts from the north. However, their conversions to Islam was only in name, and nothing more than a mask for commercial relationships. Even the Denyakeh dynasty of Futa Toro that came in the late 15th to early 16th century were pagans - though would refer to themselves as Muslims when it suited them. The opposition of Islam in Senegambia was so strongly felt even the king of Wallo Amar Fatim Borso [died 1825] coined the phrase 'Brak du tub muuk' [the Brak - king of wallo, should never ever converted to Islam].
The advent of 'true and sincere orthodox Islam' in its masses – in Senegambia, did not come until the end of the 19th century. I emphasise the phrase 'true and sincere orthodox Islam', because prior to that, the majority of the Muslims were not orthodox and mingled it with the animist believes of their forefathers - even today.
As regards to your last point, this article was about Senegal - a mostly Muslim country. Where I use the term Senegambia is to elucidate the shared history, geography and tradition between Gambia and Senegal [a common phrase], both of which are predominantly Muslim countries. This paper was not about non-Islamic African countries. As such, I did not mention anywhere ‘non-Islamic African countries’ in any of my posting on this particular issue. This paper was about an alleged gay man who died in Senegal [a predominantly Muslim country] and was disinterred by a group of people who did it again after his family had to bury him again after their first heresy. The paper put the Islamic religion at the forefront of this sacrilege when it talked about the country being a majority Muslim country and the attitudes of the Islamic leaders about homosexuality. This is a material issue and would no doubt influence attitude and behaviour. You have therefore asked the wrong question.
|
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 04:58:39
|
Your version of truth! Anyway let me ask the questions again
Do you think non-islamic African countries have better situation in terms of Gay rights? No question Islam is not favoring homosexual act, but is Islam only exception? How about animism in Africa, how does it deal with homosexuality?
Let me ask again? What is the perspective of animism on homosexuality? It sounds like Islam is the reason for the anti-homosexuality in Africa. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 22 May 2009 05:09:52 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 05:19:23
|
More questions:
Is Arabic African language? Is there a relationship between arabs and africans? Is pre-arabic culture originated from Africa? Would you consider pre-islamic arabs animists?
Here is my perspective on the issue.
The negative view on Homosexuality is common in middleeast/africa. Just look at the statistics above. Highest rate in any African culture for tolarance on Homosexuality is South Africa, it is probably because of its european population. The rest is 10ish or less than 10 percent.
Obviously Islam/Christianity/Judaism does not have favorable views on Homosexuality, but it did not start with Islam. Arabic, Jews have African background (Jesus spoken amaric which is an african language spoken today in Eritrie/Ethiopia), Arabic language came from African languages. Pre-Islamic times, Arabic religion/culture were originated from African animistic religions and the negative attitutude on Homosexuality exisited in Africa/Middleast even before Islam/Christianity arrived in Africa/Middleeast.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 22 May 2009 06:03:13 |
|
|
|
tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 06:23:16
|
Turk,
If you want to post a new topic you can certainly do so and I would be more than happy to respond to it. You will not hijack this topic to suit your agenda. My response to this paper was based on the content of the paper. I did not deviate from it. You failed or refused to acknowledge the fact that, this paper is not about non-Islamic African countries and their attitudes to homosexuality but Senegal’s [a predominantly Muslim country] attitude and treatment of homosexuals. If it was about non-Islamic African countries – [be they majority Christians or Animists] then I would have responded to that, but it isn’t. Now! You are either blind or simply refusing to see sense. If you are, then I am sorry but I cannot help you.
To quote you – ‘It sounds like Islam is the reason for the anti-homosexuality in Africa’. Again according to this paper, it did not talk about Africa as a whole – which for your information is a continent. It is about Senegal. You really need to improve your analytical skills and your ability to sift through material issues from a bundle of information before you start hitting your keyboard or copying and pasting from Wikipedia.
Whenever you are ready to start a new topic I would be delighted to respond to it. In the mean time, please stick to the content of the paper if you want to rebut my posting. This brings me to another quote of yours – ‘your version of truth’. Which of my version of truth based on the paper do you disagree with? DON'T FORGET TO STICK TO THE SCRIPT.
. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
|
|
|
tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 06:31:41
|
Turk,
Your last posting is utter nonsense. Do not dilute the bloodlines and tradition. Interesting it may be, it should not be here. It should be in the history section. Again, if you want to start a new topic I would be more than delighted to respond. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 22 May 2009 06:34:33 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 06:51:33
|
Tamsier
quote:
This is absolutely dreadful. Islamic fundamentalism and hypocrisy is spreading on our shores and I find this extremely frightening. Senegambia has a long tradition of tolerance and respect based on tradition long before Islam.
Hmmm. The topic is senegal but one can extend it by relating to Islam. In Bosnia, Albania we have islam but we don't have a situation like Senegal. While you claim that the topic is about 'senegal' you make the reference to Islam. You can extend the topic from "Senegal" to "Islam" but I can't extend the topic "Senegal" to Africa. Last time I check majority of Senegalese was African. You establish connection with Islam but I can't relate to African tradition. Interesting.
Also you are the one refering the pre-islam refering the situation in Senegambia before Islam. You are saying before Islam the attitude was different. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
© 2005-2024 Nijii |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
