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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 13:57:27
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| No. the system are not same.Our in Europe are GOP system. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 17:02:02
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Europe cannot produce an Obama. Not in the next 100 years. The unfortunate part of the reason has to do with integration. Many immigrants especially from Africa have not been able to enter the mainstresam in Europe.
My second part on Obama will deal with that problem. Secondly, the Africans in Europe are so small a number as a percentage of the population that they are not likely going to, atleast for another 100 years. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 21:37:53
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Kondorong, now i have to disagree. Just last week, Ahmed Aboutaleb (born Morrocan) was appointed mayor of Rotterdam here in Holland. He has been an important politician for about 10 years now. His current job is that of Secretary of State (with us: underminister) for Social Affairs. His term as mayor of our most important city will start on 1 January 2009. Mayors are appointed by the city council. Important political figures can formally apply for the job. There are no expensive campaigns, just a thorough application procedure. If Aboutaleb's political party (Socialists, they are now part of our current coalition) wins the next elections, he might one day become Prime Minister.
For our country that would be a major breakthrough, because it is the Moroccans that have a bad reputation and they are causing 'headache files' for our politicians. Perhaps Morocco would have a public holiday after Aboutaleb taking the Prime Minister's seat.
All this is on a smaller scale than Obama's victory, simply because what is decided in our country has less influence on world politics. But still...
We also have a Turkish Secretary of State, by the way. A young woman with the name Albayrak. She is SoS for Immigration, isn't that hopeful? Not African of course, like Aboutaleb, but still coming from a minority. There are more members of Parliament here of Moroccan or Turkish decent and that is how it should be because the Parliament should show what kinds of people our society consists of. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 22:11:24
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| i have to agree with anna (OMG) Immigrants who born in Europe have plenty opportunities in politics. They even have better chance to do it in my opinion. Europeans are more accepting and educated than yankees. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 22:22:14
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Anna
I have been to Holland and to be more specific Amsterdam. I was on board the North Sea Ferries from Hull in the UK to Zebrugee and then travel by bus. I have been to Brussels, Luxembourg, France, Germany. In france, i attended the formal handing over of the Europen Union Presidency. I attended the formal session of the European Parliamnent in Strassbourg in 1994. I think it was in December or late November of 1994.
Europe is far more difficult to integrate into than in the United States. Holland is only a few of the countries that are very tolerant to outsiders. The example of the banlieus in Paris is a case in point. In the UK, children born of immigrants(non cictizens) do not have an automatic right to citizenship.
But i hope one day they are able to have a first generation immigrant as Prime Minister of Holland just like Obama. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 22:23:55
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Sorry Turk, to have said something sensible in your eyes for once  ..you'll get over it! |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 22:42:04
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Kondorong, you seem to live a very interesting life - being a witness to all these historical points in time. Makes me curious, WHO ARE YOU???
Mind you, we have our very own banlieus - i lived in one for some time. In my view we are tolerant towards 'outsiders' as far as the outsider concerned shows ambition and intelligence and the will to let his or her voice be heard for the good of the community as a whole without denying his/her background. Sincerity, the will to work hard. Aboutaleb worked his way up through all kinds of multicultural forums and committees, he stuck out his neck in public several times - also telling his 'own' people what they did wrong, why and how they got themselves this bad reputation. He never took the easy way out. It takes courage... |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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kiwi
Sweden
662 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 22:52:45
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Came to think of Nyamko Sabuni, our Minister for Integrity and Gender Equality, born in Burundi to Congolese parents. Bifore she accepted the Minister post, she was a board member of the Liberal Party and pronounced: To become Primer Minister of Sweden? Why not? There is nothing to stop me.
Ibrahim Baylan, former Minister for Schools, was born in Turkey to Assyrian/Syrian parents.
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kiwi |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 01:58:51
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Anna and Kiwi
I have lost the debate. I was looking for examples in Europe to help me write my next issue on Obama. You have surely given me examples. Would you mind if i quote you two in the next issue?
Anna
On that day, the session centered on minority rights and also how to protect indegneous languages in Europe.
On a more serious note though, i attended a session of the European parliament in 1994 (December). For many of us from Developing countries, we were expecting armored tanks as escorts for the French Prime Minister. To our suprise, he drove in a Renault car with i think three motor cycles and two other cars as escort. He passed a fifty yards from where i was standing and had to ask a colleague if he infact arrived.
Dont blame me. I am used to streets being blocked for hours and very expesive cars around. I still have a photograph of the car he drove in and took it to Gambia to show friends.
Interestingly though, at the ACP Secretariat in Brussels, developing country representatives drove huge cars whilst the British Mission Rep. drove a tiny little car like the Mini. That was also an eye opener and when i asked what their problems were, most developing country reps. complained of parking space.
Those who were there negotiating aid for their regions drove far more expensive cars than the ones giving aid. Isnt that an irony?
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 09:34:15
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Those believing that Europe Can Produce Alike Obama Should go and ask well. I have seen here in Germany when people being asked if they will accepts a turkey to be our leader? the the answer was simply and clear,NO. and i don't see it otherwise from theses other countries, Maybe the only areas we can expect might be in scandinavian countries.
See the integration rules at Europe and you will see the difference.
We are still sailing at deep in the ocean.
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Edited by - mbay on 13 Nov 2008 10:38:48 |
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kiwi
Sweden
662 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 14:05:31
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Kondorong, you have not lost the debate, one non Swedish born member of the Government doesn´t make “an Obama”, does it? For now, Nyamko Sabuni is far from becoming prime minister due to the position she holds (meaning that to be a minister of integration is to be flayed), hopefully they will later give her another position that she can prove what she is capable of. She has the courage and self- confidence. "Yes, I can." As you know, we don´t have a president and a prime minister is never elected.
Funny though that some of the world´s most developed countries - Sweden, Norway, Denmark - proud of their democracy, still are kingdoms, let go that at least in Sweden the King has no constitutional power, he is a symbol and is more or less forbidden to make political comments. Others, like Frenchmen made revolution. And how come African kingdoms are no more kingdoms? I think I should know but I don´t.
Looking forward to your next writing.
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kiwi |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 16:03:30
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Kiwi, much as i always respect and enjoy Kondorong's contributions to this Bantaba - i do think that he lost the debate. Particularly in his remark that Europe will not 'produce an Obama' in the next 100 years, he went the wrong way, i feel. If at this moment we have African immigrants as ministers or mayors of key cities, there is no reason to assume that it will not at all be possible for one of them to become a Prime Minister in the century to come. Of course we have the same system as you have in Sweden: a monarchy with a monarch with very little (if none at all) political influence, a Prime Minister who is not directly elected by the people. The people can give power to the political party of their choice by voting and the winning party's bobos will appoint the Prime Minister (mostly already the Party leader).
Mbay, it was quite a shock to Rotterdam's citizens to discover they were going to have a Moroccan mayor. Mostly they were shocked though because of the fact that he now lives in Amsterdam and that he was a staunch Ajax supporter (real Rotterdammers hate Ajax).
Kondorong, thanks for the story about the arrival of the French president! Is it a funny story or is it on the other hand a sad story?? It makes me a bit sad, unfortunately. In a way it is an illustration of the African need to impress ("must have a bigger ram than the neighbours for Tobaski) and to intimidate with a lot of expensive materials, men with dark glasses and weapons and noise (get off the road on the double or else you'll be overrun by the presidential procession). I wonder: if African leaders would perform in public without this whole show, would they be respected by their subjects?? |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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kiwi
Sweden
662 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 16:56:12
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Hi Anna, I fully agree with your when saying ”there is no reason to assume that it will not at all be possible for one of them to become a Prime Minister in the century to come.” It could come true in the near future. I just meant to say that this was not exactly a competition, am looking forward to more arguments from Kondorong, in any direction. Thanks for your inputs, Anna.
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kiwi |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 18:14:00
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quote:
Originally posted by anna
Kondorong, thanks for the story about the arrival of the French president! Is it a funny story or is it on the other hand a sad story?? It makes me a bit sad, unfortunately. In a way it is an illustration of the African need to impress ("must have a bigger ram than the neighbours for Tobaski) and to intimidate with a lot of expensive materials, men with dark glasses and weapons and noise (get off the road on the double or else you'll be overrun by the presidential procession). I wonder: if African leaders would perform in public without this whole show, would they be respected by their subjects??
It was a funny story. Someone pointed him to me when he was entering the building. In Africa, you cannot miss a president going to a function. The whole country comes to a standstill. Even the Cabinet will stop work and all senior officials flock at airports for hours. So a Presidential travel in Africa is atleast a 5 hours of lost work.
Arrivals are even more pompous with school children asked to stop learning and line the streets. What a tragedy. Why should classes stop to welcome someone. It does not happen in Europe. A President is an employee that we all pay.
Its a continuation of colonial legacies and we have found it difficult to stop. When King Goeorge V died, Gambians in Banjul were required to strap black bands of cloth on their arms as a sign of mourning for a period of three months if my memory serves me right. If I were old enough then for the rules to apply to me, i would not. Everyone had to look sad.
The mini park around Half-Die was named after him. It was called KG5 (meaning King George the fifth.)
I think the 100 years is not a long period for Europe to produce Obama. One main reason is that many of those immigrants are from Muslim countries and with the current state of politics, that is certainly not something Europeans can swallow. The most difficult political product to sell these days is the word Muslim. Even when its given for free, there are few or no takers in Europe.
Even Obama faced a barrage of questions regarding his faith. At one of McCain's rallies, some one said that she did not trust Obama because "..he is an Arab.." Colin Powell responded on "Meet The Press" (TV programme) with his own question and ask what if Obama were an Arab?.
He gave an example of a Muslim American soldier who fought in Iraq and died and on his tomb was not the Cross or the Star of David but the Muslim Crescent.
Even CNN had to travel to Indonesia to the school Obama attended as a child to find out if Islammic education was taught there and more specifically if it was a MADARASSA (islamic school). A former class mate of his was interviewed and they came satisfied he was not a muslim, but yet still nearly 30% of the residents of Texas, still believe that Obama is a Muslim.
I think after years of public relation campaigns, they may begin to see signs of improvement.
Interestingly though, one of the reasons why Turkey is not a full member of the European Union has to do with Europeans being uncomfortable with Islam. It logically follows that someone of Turkish descend, will hardly make the job of Prime Minister; atleast not when Turkey cannot be allowed full membership of the EU.
An apple does not fall far from the tree. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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kiwi
Sweden
662 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 18:43:01
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| It´s true that a muslim Prime Minister would be too hard to digest here, but I assure you that the leader of Christian Democrats Party would never be approved of neither, too religious and too conservative. Best thing to do is to visit a church three times in you life time – as most Swedish do – when you are baptised, when you marry and when you are going to be buried. |
kiwi |
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