| Author |
 Topic  |
|
kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 19:35:50
|
Kiwi
I find the Swedish's concept of going to church three times very amusing. Scandinavia in general is a very liberal society and i think they were all in the Non-Aligned Movement during the Cold war. Anyway, you have put some smiles on my face. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
 |
|
|
kiwi
Sweden
662 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 20:03:40
|
| Both Denmark and Norway were invaded by Germany during the World War, Finland (where I lived as a child) was ravaged by both Russia and Germany, only Sweden was Non-Aligned, with some concessions to Germans. Some would call it cowardice, but certainly it was wise. That´s how Sweden built up its prosperity whilst the rest of Europe was in ruins. |
kiwi |
Edited by - kiwi on 13 Nov 2008 20:16:44 |
|
|
|
kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 20:55:09
|
| Thanks for correcting me. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
|
|
|
mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 16:35:40
|
Four years ago, the name Barack Obama was as exotic as it sounded. In 2000, he could not rent a car because his credit card did not have sufficient funds and that same year could not get into the Democratic Party's convention in Los Angeles.
I believe the meteoric rise of Barack Obama is a treasure throve of lessons to learn from, the key to which is that Allah owns all dominions and he gives to whom he wills and denies whom he wills. Clearly, man never learns from history. History is full of examples where a nobody becomes a somebody in no time, the pinnacle of which is the story of Musa (AS). What will happen in Europe will pale "an Obama" by comparison. Yes, I believe what happened in the United States will happen in Europe as well in a very short while Insa Allah.
The politics of transformation is an ongoing process. When Obama first announced his candidacy, I told my wife that in my opinion [which proofs how much I know]it was too soon and that America was not ready for such a leap. Boy/Girl I was wrong. After his win in the Iowa caucuses and his resilience in Super Tuesday, it dawned on me that there was something special about this year's elections. Needless to say from there on wards, my wife took all of my political opinions with a grain of salt. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 24 Nov 2008 16:36:55 |
|
|
|
admin
130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 21:24:40
|
Reply author: kayjatta
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 08:04:24
Message:
Yes, Europe can produce an Obama. Now, can Europe do this in the next hundred years or sooner?
I think Kondorong's (with due respect to my former teacher)hundred-year projection is bold but could possibly turn out to be wrong. Already we have started to wintess a trend of Obamization (the rapid ascension and increase of black and other minority political representatives) in America since the invention of Obama. Now whether this Obamization will spread to Europe is unclear, put it is possible.
I have learned the lesson not to dismiss anything as impossible. Hundred years is too long a time for accurate prediction, especially if you want to consider the "Law of Acceleratting Returns" in the social context.
It is also difficult to rely on a handful of minority/immigrant political representatives in Europe as a good indicator of electability to national leadership in various European countries in the short term. The first African-American representatives in the U.S. Senate and Congress existed as long ago as 1867-1870, yet an African-American president has not come along until 2008.
However, despite all of these, one has to recognize that the world has changed a lot (and perhaps has changed a lot since the election of Obama-even American Blacks were shocked at how U.S. has evolved from its racist past almost without notice), and a change in Washington could recochet throughout European capitals. Perhaps only time will tell ...
Reply author: kiwi
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 08:13:45
Message:
Kay, how woud yo define "Obamization"?
Reply author: anna
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 09:52:53
Message:
...or 'the invention of Obama' ?
Kay, i thought he was 'just a man' - born as the result of the love between his parents, one black and one white. Funny, always his 'blackness' is emphasised, never his 'whiteness'.
Let's hope the man was chosen because his ideas for his country were better than McCain's.
Kondorong, the reason that Turkey has difficulty getting into the EC is not Islam, but the human rights situation in that country and the balance sheet of the Turkish government.
Reply author: kayjatta
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 11:11:15
Message:
You are absolutely right Anna. Obama is a mixed race, although sadly the issue of his race comes up all the time and the general feeling is that unless you are thorough-bred white, you are not white at all. Therefore, Blacks of all shades are lumped together as Black. hence the world-wide notion that he is "the first Black president" of U.S. which I find somewhat absurd. I think race should not really be an issue.
Obama's rise to power must be understood in the light of the entire political and economic atmosphere of the U.S. He beat Mccain on both ideas and strategies, otherwise there is no explanation for Hillary's (the woman I named my daughter after) loss ...
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 17:50:05
Message:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by anna
...or 'the invention of Obama' ?
Kay, i thought he was 'just a man' - born as the result of the love between his parents, one black and one white. Funny, always his 'blackness' is emphasised, never his 'whiteness'.
Let's hope the man was chosen because his ideas for his country were better than McCain's.
Kondorong, the reason that Turkey has difficulty getting into the EC is not Islam, but the human rights situation in that country and the balance sheet of the Turkish government.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the first note, society had already defined the races well before Obama was born. It had nothing to do with him. To born of mixed races automatically branded one as Black. Atleast thats what happens in the United states. In South Africa and Namibia though, mixed race children were classified as "colored" and not balck. The two were different. During apartheid, the lighter one's skin the more priviledges. Perhaps a reason why many of my sisters have long hair extensions or even bleach their skin.
Regarding Turkey, i will accept your reason but i think the big elephant in the room is too big to ignore. Its only in Turkey that the military has been used as a custodian of democracy
No other European country's army has had this role and they have publicly intervened in matters of party registration. Infact i think parties based on religion are not allowed by the Turkish constitution - requirement to join the EU. However its possible to have a Christian Democratic Party in Europe.
We will never agree on tbis issue but an Obama in Europe is impossible for the next 100 years. Its ok to see some exmaples, but most of the time, they are used as affirmative action policies rather than anything else. This is what is called "political correctness" in the western politics. I have been in Europe long enough to know that breakfast is scrambled eggs and toast or oatmeal with milk.
Reply author: njucks
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 20:08:47
Message:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by anna
............ born as the result of the love between his parents, one black and one white. Funny, always his 'blackness' is emphasised, never his 'whiteness'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
interesting observation Anna i agreed with Kay: no matter what the configuration, black father+white mother, black mother + white father the child is always black. its like tiger woods is black thogu his mother is asian.
i think it is precisely this obsession with race that obama campaigned not as a black candidate but as a candidate for all americans of all heritage.
he probably would have lost if he ran on race: clever man
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 20:44:50
Message:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding Turkey, i will accept your reason but i think the big elephant in the room is too big to ignore. Its only in Turkey that the military has been used as a custodian of democracy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correction would be 'military has been used as a custodian of secularism'
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 21:14:24
Message:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kondorong, the reason that Turkey has difficulty getting into the EC is not Islam, but the human rights situation in that country and the balance sheet of the Turkish government.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh yeah, Romania and Bulgaria has much better situation? Turkey does not have a good human rights situation I agree, but when it comes to turkey standards always higher. For example, Turkish economy is better than Bulgaria and Romania. Do you want proof? We have hundreds of Bulgarian and Romanian prostitutues :) in Istanbul, many romanian 'suitcase trader', construction workers.
The real reason is the Turkey's power and its impact on EU when it becames the member. Turkey would be the second biggest voter, after Germany, in EU parliament, in 2050, they would be the most populous country in EU. Many Turkish politicians will take over EU institutions. Turkey's GDP growth last 5 years was almost 10 percent per year. Even yesterday in this financial crisis, they announced that Germany, italy and many EU countries growth rate was negative. Turkey still has better GDP growth than many. Turkey is situated between energy resource regision Turkistan and Europe. The biggest military in Europe is in Turkey. Currently Germany, France, Benelux are the dominant in EU, when Turkey became the EU member power balance will change. Just look at which countries that are supporting Turkey. France, Austria, Germany, Holland, Belgium are not supporting. UK, Italy, Spain, Poland are supporting.
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 21:57:22
Message:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by turk
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding Turkey, i will accept your reason but i think the big elephant in the room is too big to ignore. Its only in Turkey that the military has been used as a custodian of democracy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correction would be 'military has been used as a custodian of secularism'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets not bog ourselves with semantics here. If democracy is not secularism i dont know what it is. In a Theorcracy, you cannot have democracy. Democracy=Secularism.
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 22:43:00
Message:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets not bog ourselves with semantics here. If democracy is not secularism i dont know what it is. In a Theorcracy, you cannot have democracy. Democracy=Secularism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Democracy is not secularism as you put it as Democracy=Secularism. Based on your equation one would say Soviet Union, Cuba, China were/are democracy as they were/are secular states. Are they democracy? No. Democracy include secularism. Secularism is one of the pillar for Democracy. Others being social, lawful, fairly represented, respectful the human rights.
For Turkish situation, it is worth to distingush what you say about military being protector of democracy or protector of secularism. The army in Turkey, in the name of protecting secularism, protection causes comprising of democracy. For example, when islamic party, Welfare party form the government, the army forced this government to resign in the name of the democracy. Or last year, when turkish army did the e-ultimatum against the islamic rooted government, that hurt turkish democracy. Therefore, army position to protect secularims may be good thing and that may mean to protect democracy, however, if you are giving up democracy for secularism, you turn to Stalin or Mao.
Reply author: kiwi
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 22:57:43
Message:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kondorong
Thanks for correcting me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I went back to your posting and saw that your comment reads " Non-Aligned Movement during the Cold war" and not the World War II as I thought. Sweden was and still is non-alignent, Norway and Denmark were/are NATO member states.
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 15 Nov 2008 00:22:54
Message:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by turk
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets not bog ourselves with semantics here. If democracy is not secularism i dont know what it is. In a Theorcracy, you cannot have democracy. Democracy=Secularism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Democracy is not secularism as you put it as Democracy=Secularism. Based on your equation one would say Soviet Union, Cuba, China were/are democracy as they were/are secular states. Are they democracy? No. Democracy include secularism. Secularism is one of the pillar for Democracy. Others being social, lawful, fairly represented, respectful the human rights.
For Turkish situation, it is worth to distingush what you say about military being protector of democracy or protector of secularism. The army in Turkey, in the name of protecting secularism, protection causes comprising of democracy. For example, when islamic party, Welfare party form the government, the army forced this government to resign in the name of the democracy. Or last year, when turkish army did the e-ultimatum against the islamic rooted government, that hurt turkish democracy. Therefore, army position to protect secularims may be good thing and that may mean to protect democracy, however, if you are giving up democracy for secularism, you turn to Stalin or Mao.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot have democracy without secularism.
Why did the army force the party to resign and if i may use your own words "..in the name of the democracy.". So a theocracy is the opposite of secularism. If the army stoppped the party to protect democracy, then democracy is secularism.
Lets not take the winding road down the hill.
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 15 Nov 2008 01:07:11
Message:
i have never claim that you have democracy without secularism. But in the name protection of secularism, one can't give up other aspects of democracy as Turkish army is doing. Beside, the people, not the army protects democracy. 'in the name of the democracy' was sarcasm there. Didn't you get it. How can it be democracy when army (not elected) ask the government (elected) to resign? I am sorry you missed the irony there. Unless you think it is ok army to involve in politics.
Secularism is a concept that describes religion in government. It is one of the important principles in democracy, but itself is not equal to democracy. Again, based on your logic, Cuba, Soviet Union, China are democracies.
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 15 Nov 2008 01:39:08
Message:
Turk
You are right. I read my posting again and found out the fault. It was my mistake.
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 15 Nov 2008 01:50:50
Message:
I forgive you kondo. But don't do it again, ok. :) ;)
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 15 Nov 2008 19:46:56
Message:
In germany....their obama is coming....
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,3796158,00.html?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 18 Nov 2008 21:05:21
Message:
Turk
Obama will be 48 in August 2009. Its reported that many women are on a pregnancy pack to deliver in nine months (August 2009) so that their chilren will share the same birth month with him.
The Obama mania comes in many forms.
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 19 Nov 2008 20:18:27
Message:
It is a pop culture. Especially in yankestan. I like Obama but I am sceptic as well. At the end of day, he should be judged on what he will have accomplished. I don't see him as some kind of 'prophet'. I don't understand why they talk about muslims being fanatic, look at what they do for man-made gods or rock stars, or sports personalities.
Reply author: Momodou
Replied on: 20 Nov 2008 07:39:20
Message:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kiwi
Came to think of Nyamko Sabuni, our Minister for Integrity and Gender Equality, born in Burundi to Congolese parents. Bifore she accepted the Minister post, she was a board member of the Liberal Party and pronounced: To become Primer Minister of Sweden? Why not? There is nothing to stop me.
Ibrahim Baylan, former Minister for Schools, was born in Turkey to Assyrian/Syrian parents.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiwi, I believe the current prime minister of Sweden once mentioned that one of his ancestors is African-American.
Reply author: kiwi
Replied on: 20 Nov 2008 09:15:14
Message:
That´s very true, Momodou!It was his grandfather´s father, probably. can´t remember for sure. Searching through the net doesn´t give any help as the issue abviously has been chewed on every racist and nazist site.
How could I forget it,we already have an Obama?
Reply author: njucks
Replied on: 20 Nov 2008 15:13:09
Message:
Momodou, kiwi is right its his great-gran was an African american. kiwi it has not disappeared its on the wiki page and other online swedish newspapers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredrik_Reinfeldt#Personal_life
i dont think race was an issue during the swedish election. like France they also have a female minister with an african heritage.
Reply author: kiwi
Replied on: 20 Nov 2008 17:41:56
Message:
Thank you njucks to bringing this link to my attention, I was not aware of it. There seems to be more about him on the Englisttt site than the Swedish.
”It happened a long time ago: A young woman from Riga came to Stockholm to work as a maid. In Stockholm the Latvian woman met a circus manager, a ”mulatto” from New York. He made her pregnant, as it was said. The circus manager returned to US and the woman gave birth to a son named John. This boy would be great grandfather to Fredrik Reinfeldt. ”
This is how it starts, the story of Fredrik Reinfeldt, Prime Minister of Sweden, as described in “On of us?” a book written by a journalist.
Reinfeldt is not my man when it comes to politics but as a person he is “one of us”, representative for his generation on modern men, with a modest behaviour and life style, men who do the housework and are engaged in the family life on the whole.
Like you said, race was not an issue, his history was not known.
Reply author: Momodou
Replied on: 20 Nov 2008 17:43:30
Message:
Kiwi and Njucks, Thanks for confirming that story about the current Swedish Prime minister.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
