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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 11:20:11
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OK - as I understand it - what Njuks/Janko are determined to say here is that racism is only to be found in the west (ie white peoples' attitudes/behaviours towards other colours/races) and what non-Gambians have experienced in the Gambia is a lack of understanding of other cultures!
It never fails to amaze me that it's considered un-pc for white people to comment on 'black issues' (I'm not going the pc route here!!) but if white folk have the audacity to say that they've experienced racism then it's a whole different story ....
It's not a p***ing competition along the lines of we've endured years of discrimination, etc and how does it feel to be in the minority type comments. It doesn't matter how big or small the experience is, it is still racism and it IS everywhere - get your heads out off the sand!! |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 11:38:26
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| My understanding is that recism is everywhere diversity exists. Where ever there are different types of people, be it races, ethnicity, nationality, language, there are some who exploit those subtle differences to their own advantage and to the exploitation or the exclusion of others they consider different from themselves. The vast majority of people now are free from these practice, but there are still a few usually ignorant members of most societies whose simple minds cannot process anything other rthan along the lines of race, ethnicity, nationality, and other trivialities. They cannot see the content of a person's character, or the humanity beyond the skin color of a person. These kinds of people are every where, In the Gambia, elsewhere in Africa, Europe, U.S., Russia, everywhere and I have met a few of them myself... |
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black orchid
United Kingdom
74 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 11:50:12
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we have also had kids throwing stones at us, demanding money.
My hubby has been called a "red monkey", a "racist", and a "white B"
by very aggresive bumsters.
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black orchid
United Kingdom
74 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 12:00:20
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oh nearly forgot, we both get called "toubab", and in my case "bosslady". Which we don't mind, and don't consider racist at all. We see it as a term of endearment. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 12:20:47
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| I do not however think "Toubab" is a racist word though. It appears to be a generic word for "White person" used in many places in West Africa. Surprisingly Gambians called each other "Toubab" sometimes usually in reference to one's "refined manners", but sometimes in a derogatory way. |
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leokat
United Kingdom
123 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 14:23:43
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quote:
[i]It's not a p***ing competition along the lines of we've endured years of discrimination, etc and how does it feel to be in the minority type comments. It doesn't matter how big or small the experience is, it is still racism and it IS everywhere - get your heads out off the sand!!
IMHO what you describe is - as you yourself acknowledge - discrimination. This, however, is not - as I understand the term - the same as racism. For racism to operate there needs to be an (often institutionalised) imbalance of power that legitimises the descrimination.
Difference can feel threatening so, yes, many many individuals and groups of people of differing age, race, nationality, religion, gender, level of ability/disability etc have experienced/endured years of discrimination. For those people the experience will probably have been negative. However, it is not the same as having that discrimination backed up by the laws of the land, endemic within the police force, military, legal system, education system, medical profession etc.
I have definately felt in the minority whilst visiting The Gambia (and other non-European countries). There are times when I am acutely aware that I am of a different colour to the majority of the population. I have also felt a degree of resentment due to my apparent wealth, freedom etc. Somtimes when I am being hassled to buy or give more more more I feel vulnerable. When I am asked to pay more than I know a Gambian would I feel discriminated against.
However, at least as often, I feel the discrimination operates in the opposite direction. More than once (and in different resturants) I have noiced that my Gambian guests are treated less favourably than myself. Once whilst in a taxi at Westfield Junction myself and three friends, together with the taxi driver, were pulled over - apparently randomly - by the police. My friends and the taxi driver were made to get out of the car and searched. I was allowed to remain in the car. When I offered to open my own bags I was told it was not necessary.
I have no problem with the term toubab and have never seen it as in any way derogitory. But what about the term 'bumster' - how do Gambians feel about guests to their country using that term to describe the section of the population who choose to try to make a living by exploiting the tourists? |
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 14:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by leokat
quote:
[i]It's not a p***ing competition along the lines of we've endured years of discrimination, etc and how does it feel to be in the minority type comments. It doesn't matter how big or small the experience is, it is still racism and it IS everywhere - get your heads out off the sand!!
IMHO what you describe is - as you yourself acknowledge - discrimination. This, however, is not - as I understand the term - the same as racism.
I beg to differ, Leokat ....
racism
The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English | Date: 2008
rac·ism / #712;râ#716;siz#601;m/
• n. the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
#8718; prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief
And furthermore, if we're being totally honest with each other here, I know that just as there are white people who don't appreciate non-whites there are an equal amount of non-white people who don't appreciate white people .... that is the way of the world!!
As for the term 'bumster', I don't know who started that as it's not what I would call a proper English term (ie doesn't appear in the Oxford English dictionary). On the accessgambia website they write "Bumster Definition: The word is thought to have its origins from the English word for bum which means a beggar, tramp or layabout." Now bum (meaning tramp or beggar) is an American English term and not used in the UK so I can only assume that the name bumster came to be in the Gambia itself as it seems to be a Gambian phenomenon .... maybe someone else on Bantaba has more knowledge of this though???? |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
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black orchid
United Kingdom
74 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 15:24:23
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The first time I heard the word "bumster", it was uttered by a Gambian taxi driver, who learning that it was our first time in Gambia, told me to be wary of these young men. And believe me we have been ripped off a few times by these "bumsters"...but it's our own fault for being naive.
One young man asked me to sponser his football team as they wanted to buy football strips, which I did. Only to find out later that it was a scam and that other people had also fallen for it. All the old timers to the Gambia always laugh and say "oh no not the football strip scam", apparently its one of the oldest tricks in the book.
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 15:56:14
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Everybody has a skeleton in the cupboard
- does that mean they are racist, or is that racism
Even whereas the experiences of turk, fee_sweetie, Snuggles and others are inexcusable and unfortunate, as Anna clearly stated, it does not mean they have been exposed to organised hate crimes based on there race, racism or institutional racism.
My fear is the term RACISM is being used very loosely, which in my view is an insult to those who have experienced real racism; could not go to school, to the doctor or have a job because of who they are. Racism is a very serious crime against humanity that has cursed a lot of havoc and continues to in our times, it has been a hinder to a greater understanding between human since its invention, by some mad scientists. Let’s not allow ourselves to fall in the same ditch of ignorance or personal grudges. Lets take the higher grounds here as the open and intelligent people we are.
Lets be mindful, lets put all the sentimentality aside, pull back a little and do a little self-reflection. I came in the discussion not to deny anybody of his or her personal experiences but to learn and hopefully contribute some sense. Hence reasonable discussion is based on mutual respect for each others opinion, sorry if what I said angered anybody, it’s not what I intended.
There is a difference between a common criminal behaviour/act and a crime motivated by race, racism. The difference is, a common criminal act is motivated by material gain whiles a racially motivated crime is motivated by racial ideology, none material.
Likewise, there is deference between institutional racism and individual personal acts of dishonesty and corruption. An individual exploiting/using his/her position in an institution for personal gains does not constitute or mean that the institution s/he is employed is organised around the idea of race or has racial cultural values as its core. A policeman, a doctor, a clerk acting personally with the intention of material gain does not constitute or mean that the police, health, or immigration departments are bureaucratically organised on/by the ideology of race.
Institutional racism is when a society’s social structure and bureaucracy is base on the idea of race and intentionally marginalising, discriminating and consciously exempting others or the minority. Examples of institutional racism are; Apartheid system, or if it were obligatory for foreigners to speak at least one Gambian language before they could acquire employment or start any kind of business or own property (hotel, retail, land) or the President eludes the idea of race in a public announcement as in the homo-case, etc.
The word Toubab is used in many contexts in the Gambia and the connotation and or meaning is different in each context but it does not explicitly mean Westerner/foreigner or for that matter derogatory. Most of the usage is a reference to a higher social status.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 16:40:36
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Meme,
no, not at all…you are not being fair, because that is the conclusion you draw from what is said which is different from the statements I made. Those were your words (wording); I can not take responsibility for them.
Thanks for taking the trouble of looking up the word; at least we now have a concrete point of departure.
”….. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.”
The key of the definition lies in “based on such a belief”. By the way is it “belief”(implicating faith) or “believe”(implicating judgement), either way the definition does not qualify Gambia or at least the examples given in this discussion do not make tangible evidence for the existence of racism in Gambia, if we go by the definition.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 18:09:11
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the first time i heard the word toubab was in 1990 on the beach as i walked along with a senegalese friend. some bumsters tried to sell me a necklace. i politley said "no". and they left smiling and saying something in wollof.
the senegalese girl said they had called me "toubab-bi domi harram la".
white man b-stard.
is that racist or cultural.?
methinks it it is obvious that they did not like the fact i had not bought, or that i was walking with a "sister", but they did not say domi-harram, they said "toubab and domi harram " together.
people are people.
everywhere.
toubab can be used as a friendly term or as an aggressive, racist term.
depends who uses it.
mainly i have seen it used as a friendly word, in a country where the term "p.c." does not exist. see the word "nig-ger". it's connotation is awful, but the use of the word itself is deemed tabu by non african-americans, but almost mandatory by some sections of black society. all depends on who and how before people get upset.
so you take it (toubab)in the spirit it is given, but i have definitely experienced overt, anti-white prejudice, from police, army, business , locals and all manner.
the word toubab was not the issue, but the racism was blindingly in your face. the reasons for it may have been envy of wealth or whatever, but for people to say that gambians are not or racist is , of course, poppycok.
some of them are, the same as some of the brits are, and a whole generation of germans were--PIG-IGNORANCE.
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Edited by - lurker on 18 Sep 2008 18:45:20 |
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 21:44:51
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
what i see here.
whiteys do not appreciate what africans complain about racism in west. Now, gambians have similar situation. That is all natural. I watched a movie long time ago, i think it was spenser tracy, or kirk dougles. anyway, the men colour his skin to get darker to experience what black men experience. than this german writer in germany, act like turkish to realize what turks go through. And the other movie was white's man burden. john travolta. a poor white man and rich black guys.
In gambia, i felt if someone has authority or power over me they could be very disriminative. Of course, not everyone like this. My point is gambia has racism as west, and its impact is more because of the lack of democracy, stable judiary system and technology/system that would reduce the impact of racism.
I guess this indian words are say it all. 'it is more important to understand than to be understood'.
To use the term racism will always evoke emotions, what you have experience here is not a disbelief but despair even frustration as the term has been used incorrectly.
There are many definitions which can be found in various dictionarys and theres always a slight variation.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups. The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines racism as a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular racial group, and that it is also the prejudice based on such a belief. The Macquarie Dictionary defines racism as: "the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others."
The UN doesn't define racisim but Racial discrimination
Article 1 of the Convention defines "racial discrimination" as
any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.
Something i think our own definations adhere to.
Like I said before, anyone can be an individual racist if they believe in a superiority of another race, but its the effect on the individual or the race that is under question.
If the initial question had been... do you feel there are discriminative practices in the Gambia? or have you witnessed xenophobia in the Gambia? or is there corruption in the Gambia or even prejudice? you would have witnessed a different debate. This is whathas been outlined in the arguments put forward not racism and this is why people are not in denial.
However, whether Back or White harassment on any level is unacceptable despite location and needs to be stopped.Harrassment however does not equate Racisim.
I do wonder if these incidents (in some cases here) are linked to location by this I mean from the examples given I am assuming its the heart of the tourist area? Is this a product of that a new form of tact/intimidation.
Though I am by no means condoning this.
Has anyone had similar experiences in the provinces?
The word coloured was used here, many black people are offended by this term to describe their race. Some may argue its a racist term, for me I accept that people from a certain generation use it, not as a derogatory term but more as a PC term. That many, once they know it is unacceptable will cease to use it.
However the word Toubab although constantly defined, is still seen as a racist word though it has nothing to do with race.My personal experience of the word is white people calling themselves it, even though I was told by an educated person in Gambia that the term has nothing to do with colour maybe this is what the problem is. That is why I questioned the meaning.
As for the west like you previously indicated there are statistics data and interventions (however ineffective some may feel) in place, the problem cannot be denied and inflammatory postings about this have best been ignored. |
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 21:48:22
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quote:
Originally posted by black orchid
... and in my case "bosslady". Which we don't mind, and don't consider racist at all. We see it as a term of endearment.
My younger sister got really uptight when she was first called it she thought the guys thought she was the oldest.
I see it as a term of endearment certainly not offensive. |
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snuggels
960 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 23:39:49
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Yep so do I and I personlaly in all the years of going to Gambia have not heard any toubabs offended by it. But know dout there must be some But havnt come across it
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 00:14:11
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There was a discussion with a police officers about my daughter. My daughter was born to a Gambian mother. But she does not possess the gambian citizenship. I had some confrontation with an officer and he told me that wheather I like it or not my daughter is a gambian. I disputed, I said no, she might have had gambian link but she does not have the citizenship. The police say, refering the gambian constitution, as her mother is gambian she is actually gambian. Which is not true, because same constitution indicates if someone born to a gambian parent, can be gambian but if same person became another citizenship/citizenships that means this person give up her right to be gambian. The police got offended and I remember his resposne 'you toubab insulting my intelligence?'. I said no, i disagree with you with little concern as the police had authority over me. Basically, he can arrest me, put in the jail and I can't do nothing. I had to go to police station to resolve the issue. One would say same police would have similar sitution with a gambian too. That could be true. But in this case I was quarter percent toubab and he was black gambian. If I was in UK I would not have an concern about telling police **** off. But in Gambia I was concerned. System does not have checks to reduce the impact of racism. That is why the racism situation would be more difficult in Gambia. That is the difference to me. The institution racism exist in Gambia like everywhere else and the impact is even more.
quote:
Even whereas the experiences of turk, fee_sweetie, Snuggles and others are inexcusable and unfortunate, as Anna clearly stated, it does not mean they have been exposed to organised hate crimes based on there race, racism or institutional racism.
I can easily have same arguement that a police check in usa may not be based on racist attitude by the officers. I was stopped by police officers too. Until i started talking, the police would not know me that i was not a white yankee. One would argue is that police is doing their job. Or police is stopping a black men more often. So what percentage of police stopping the black men based on racist attitude. If a police is black and stop a black man also based on racist attitude?
Or blacks are getting less job opportunity in usa. I know some gambians do not go to mauritinian shops because basically they are not gambians. So people change their positions and standards when they have the same arguement of racism. It is obvious the ones are so passionate about racism in west towards blacks, have their standards change when we talk about racism in gambia. But that is ok, it is human nature. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 19 Sep 2008 00:24:20 |
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