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snuggels
960 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 17:58:41
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"To think there is no racism in Gambia is naive and is to bury ones head in the sand..."
Really, what about the British guy that was smuggled out of the country and the Aviation Company that dubbed the country, would you call that racist. The young Gambians that marry old women from the West is that racism.That you did not understand what was said does not justify racism does it."
What we are taking about here is personal experiences.
"That you did not understand what was said does not justify racism does it."
It was obviouse from there agressive manner they did not like me.
Yeah could be they didnt like anybody.
"Apart from Gambia where else did you experience racism and how."
The thread is about Gambia so lets not get side tracked again
Im not saying my personal experience justifies an organised racist attack on none Gambians is groundless and fictitious.
All we were aked was about was our own our personal experiences and thats what you got
What isnt groundless and fictitouse is racism does exist and as i said previouely to think it doesnt is to bury ones head in the sand
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Edited by - snuggels on 16 Sep 2008 18:30:34 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 18:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Janko
“Toubabs are too liberal (secular)… “
Did you miss the definitions of Toubab given herein; that Gambians call each other toubab, that it does not exclusively mean “White” and that it is not derogatory but uplifting? If Turk, Lebanese, English, Syrian are all called toubab then toubab has more to it than being, White/Westerner. Be mindful of generalising your personal experiences as if they are universal.
Janko, i agree.this is an easy mistake that many europeans are begining to make. thinking that the word Tubab is offensive.this is incorrect its just sad that they dont understand the local languages. in both Mandinka/wollof its normal to call africans ''black person'' if you translate it directly. if Black -american , black-british is acceptable i cannot see how ''tubab'' can be offensive, considering that it doent only mean white?
its just a convenient misrepresentation.i am 100% certain that gambians dont habour any ill feelings when they say tubab.
one should also ask this question from a gambian perspective by simply turning the question around on how people behave whilst in the gambia?
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 21:04:27
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"I have heard of many businesses owned by white people that have closed down in Gambia because of harassment from the police or tax authorites wilst those owned by Gambians are left alone. instastutional Racism Ummmm"
Really, what about the British guy that was smuggled out of the country and the Aviation Company that dubbed the country, would you call that racist. The young Gambians that marry old women from the West is that racism.That you did not understand what was said does not justify racism does it.
I asked if you had experienced racism elsewhere because your understanding of racism is very hazy and simplistic. So I wonder if you had another experience of racism to compare with the one you claim to have experienced in the Gambia. The incidents you mentioned do not exclusively happen to just none Gambians but also to Gambians.
You know, you can advocate whatever you want |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 21:51:03
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
Based on my experience, being many countries in the world. Here is my assessment.
Every country has racism. Potentially anyone can be racist. There may be factors for some communities have more racism and the impact on racism greater than others.
First of all racism is about power. If you have more power on the other, your racism have greater impact. For example, a racist black man would not be significant in terms of harm in Germany where a black man do not have much power in terms of finance, political power or authority. Same black man would have more harmful if he was in Africa because he potentially have more power on others. I don't care who is 'racist' black or white. What I care is 'how much power' this person has over me.
Since our example is gambia. In Gambia many gambians do not like toubabs because of following reasons. Toubabs are too liberal (secular). As a conservative society they don't like it. If a toubab women talk about feminism or more liberal values, right there, black men would see whites as immorals individuals. This social fact would be valid for all. And English man may not like a pakistani because of life style or conservative muslim values, i.e. pakistanis view on muslim women.
Another reason would be toubabs are former imperialist. Wheather you like it or not, gambians do remember history and relate their poverty to imperialism. Especially when they see all the toubabs are having better life, they don't like it. They have similar view on Lebanase too. As lebanase are wealthir gambian may not like this fact. Historical reasons would be same reason for hate for europeans too. Austrians do not like turks because when turks threaten vienne with two attack on their city a few centuries ago.
There could be several reasons. Many reason would be similar in nations. But I am not really interested in these reasons because, regardless of the reasons, potentially these reasons can be in any community. Like I said, potentially any community can have same chance to be racist. What i am really interested how the impact of racism is reduced. This is where, in our example, gambia is different from UK.
1. A more educated society may be more tolarent towards other race. When you compare a English man vs. Gambian, there is huge intellectual differences. Educated man would tolarate more and have more realistic and fair analysis when face problem with other race. Many times in gambia, when I challenged people or government officials, immedietly they play the race card. For example when I challanged immigration officer or police officers about the law I know, they accuse me to insult their intelligence as a toubab. First of all my being toubab would not have anything to do with the situtaion. Educated man would know that. But, which school grade a gambian police graduate from. What is the grade level a british police graduate from.
2. Racism would have less impact on more democratic society. The level of democracy and strong rule of law would reduce the impact on racism. For example, in UK, more democratic rights, better judicial system would be a barrier for racism. In Gambia, human rights, democratic institutions are not as developed. Gambians do not have fair justice system for themselves, for the different race the situation is worse. In England when face racism there are institution you can apply. A justice system is better to fight against it. In gambia you have less chance.
Everytime i was stopped at the check point because I look toubab, racial profiling, I am afraid to challange the police, because, I do not have much confidence in the legal system in gambia to protect me if i challanged the police officer.
Will continue.
Our definition of racism is not dis- similar and yes I don't think anyone would disagree that racism can be found anywhere in the world.
I wont use the word toubab as it seems Gambians use this to describe themselves so lets say westerners this describes both you and I then with no confusion as this is what I think were talking about.
I disagree that it is racist behaviours that reject feminist ideology. Like I said I have come across blatant sexist behaviours this was based on Gender not race.
As a westerner in Gambia I see some of the western woman as 'immoral' in terms of their behaviour . I don't think this can be used as an example of racist behaviour on my part.
The imperialist thing I would have to agree, however I have not experienced this in Gambia maybe as a black woman this may be the reason, but I have been aware of it here by Gambian posters.
Now I have heard many comments about the Lebanese business and in fairness from westerns as well as Gambians. But in terms of Gambians negativity I would argue This is xenophobic attitudes but nevertheless there is negativity. But where is the power shift?
I'm interested with your experience with officials do they use the term 'toubab'?
Again many western women have been the victim of what I would define of sexual harassment from airport officials there is also lots of corruption (Fines for bringing in your own phones , tourist intimidation) as Karl pointed out this is corruption and Gambians fall foul to this.
Is this not the narrow minded view that you have more than me so I want the lions share.
My brother this May hired a 4x4 and was pulled over so many times a check point as well as asked to exit the vehicle his white mate in comparison was waved on more often than not the difference between these two men is the colour of their skin yet which one should complain against harassment? Incidentally my brother took it on the chin.
Living in a democratic society does not irradiate racism in fact it may give patrons a voice to speak out about it but then it affords the same rights for the far right to pedal their filth.
I disagree totally that a democratic society has a system provides a barrier. Look at the US or the UK for example.
However I cannot discount your comment on the judicial system or lack of it in Gambia but as you have pointed out this is as bad for Gambians as it is for foreigners this again is product of a corrupt society but I fail to see how this is racist.
I look forward to your continuation. |
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 22:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
one should also ask this question from a gambian perspective by simply turning the question around on how people behave whilst in the gambia?
Njucks this is a good question.
I would assume from my own experience that it is disgust or contempt, not racism that rejects some of the appalling behaviour seen on the streets displayed by westerners. |
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 22:13:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Janko
I asked if you had experienced racism elsewhere because your understanding of racism is very hazy and simplistic. So I wonder if you had another experience of racism to compare with the one you claim to have experienced in the Gambia. The incidents you mentioned do not exclusively happen to just none Gambians but also to Gambians.
You know, you can advocate whatever you want
This is exactly why when you asked the question 'what is racism'? I suggested maybe the question should have been ' what is your definition of racism?'
All too many times people scream this not knowing the meaning of the word.
I agree because you do not understand the language spoken does not mean the language used is racist or the manner its conveyed is such. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 00:54:30
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janko
you missed the point on my germany/african example. it is not significant if a country, continent. The point is that an individual may be racist but his racist attitude would have different impact depends on the power he has. A racist black man in germany probably do not have much power so impact is less, but the same racist black man in africa i.e. police officer would have more impact.
I never thought toubab something like ******. You are really missing the points. Toubabs wheater english or dutch more liberal/secular views than gambians. Gambia is more conservative than western when it comes to ideas like i.e. feminism. That would have negative attitudes towards europeans which could be the source of racism.
I can't believe what you are saying. You are trying to score point or debate. I am not comparing Gambian view vs. turkey. Why would you bring turkey. I am comparing gambians vs. west. You are right gambians are very similar when it comes to conservatism like turks or middleeastern, but you are missing entire point there. In Gambia most gambians see whites, western people less moral. This is same in Turkey or egypt. Wheater you like it or not, gambia is muslim society.
Gambia could have same potential when it comes to racism like the other nations. However, I would prefer to be discriminated by racist in Uk than gambia, at least in UK i have ways to fight against it, and system has checks to reduce the impact on racism. Better justice system, more democratic society.
I have faced bullying, insult by gambians several times. Obviously, gambians here may be naive or bias to face the reality. This reminds me that german dude who acted as turkish to really understand how turks are being treated. Aren't they complain same when they try to raise their voice about racism in UK?
njuks
But, 'toubabs are too liberal' has nothing to do with janko's reaction. When I say toubabs are too liberal, why would someone defends toubab is not being offensive words. Am I missing a point here?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 17 Sep 2008 07:53:36 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 10:55:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiz Princess
..........my own experience that it is disgust or contempt, not racism that rejects some of the appalling behaviour seen on the streets displayed by westerners.
i agree Princess.
Turk,
i get your point on the education bit and i think its true that education is more important. but reading all the topics here i cannot see any solid evidence of racism in the classical sense of the word, i.e. associated with hatred and an inherent sense/belief of superiority.
the examples you and others give can be toned down to more of ''jealously of higher income'', ''envy'' and at best discrimination on the traffic.
but this is not specifically targeted towards toubabs, it's applied to gambians as well. a young gambian youth fresh from Europe driving say a 4x4 he imported would equally be stopped on the traffic for the same reason as a toubab.
if i entered a shop with a Toubab anywhere in Africa, there is a 100% probability that the toubab would recieve more attention than me, even if i am the one paying for example.
even in Africa, cities that have high european/expat population tend to be very expensive, Dakar, Abidjan, Brazzavile etc. This is becuase expats ( sometimes Africans as well) have a higher income and dont mind paying inflated prices. its the locals that suffer. just spend a day in Dakar and see how expensive it is. Land has become expensive in the gambia due foreign cash mainly.
there was a toipc before called Toubab, what does it mean. i'll give you an example. for example, the name for Catholics in the gambia is GRUMEH. it applies whether you are white, lebanese, syrian or irish. its just a name like toubab. just as if you are from a certain part of the gambia you are called a fanafana because of the way they speak.
perhaps its to do with the phsychology of the people towards toubabs but i dont think its acompanied with hatred as in racism.
you will never see gambians refuse to sit next to a toubab in a taxi simply because of the colour of their skin.
neither do i think children in a village shouting Toubab, with the hope that they might get a few sweets/mints are being racist. thats unfair and extreme.
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fee_sweetie
United Kingdom
127 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 11:56:31
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you will never see gambians refuse to sit next to a toubab in a taxi simply because of the colour of their skin.
neither do i think children in a village shouting Toubab, with the hope that they might get a few sweets/mints are being racist. thats unfair and extreme.
Can I ask how you know this. Are you white????
I have witnessed children throwing stones at me while shouting 'Toubab'- running after me still to throw stones, dont think they were after sweets. I have been in a taxi where a Lady got out and said she would use another taxi when I got in.
I have been shouted at by people in the street, demanding money and calling me ' toubab'. One man actually had to be restrained by my friend. I have been to a shop where i was ignored and not served until I got a friend to go in for me..
It doesnt matter how much people on this site try to justify the fact that 'toubab' is not a racist word or used in rasicst ways. But you will not understand until you have been in situations like some us 'toubabs' have been in. |
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you'd have good people doing good things + evil people doing evil things but for good people to do evil things it takes religion"- Richard Dawkins |
Edited by - fee_sweetie on 17 Sep 2008 11:58:42 |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 22:20:33
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Fee, i am sorry you had these experiences. I am surprised really, because as far as i can recall no adult person (apart from some police officers at a check point) in the Gambia ever called me 'Toubab' - i only heard it from children who were hoping for minti (which i never give). Mostly i am called 'bosslady', which i don't like, but it became a bit less awful when they asked me immediately after that 'where is the bossman?'. And they were referring to my Gambian partner, so the colour issue didn't play a role apparently. Just that we were the tourists that they were hoping to serve (in the restaurant, shop, bar or whatever).
Talking about racism in the Gambia: i am always amazed that the Gambians themselves seem to judge each other by the colour of their skin. People whose skin is lighter seem to be very proud of that (as if they regard very dark skinned people a bit more primitive?). Well, the fact that some women (and men too, i saw) bleach their skins says it all. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 22:58:16
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Thanks Njucks, simple facts put elementarily.
There is a saying that the shoemaker makes your shoes in accordance with how you present yourself.
Turk, I do not only miss the points, as you said, your arguments/examples confuse me. But, hi, you and everyone else are free to think what you will, this is the liberal West. But be mindful of inventing RACISM where it does not exist…..
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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snuggels
960 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 00:49:36
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JANKO
Yeah Like go home you white F------ Sh-- also and you say the experience YOU CLAIM so obviously you dont belive anything thats is said or you try and discredit what anyones does say. IT HAPPENS and thats the truth and yes the truth hurts I related my experience what DID happen to me. End of story Ok |
Edited by - snuggels on 18 Sep 2008 01:27:55 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 02:06:44
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what i see here.
whiteys do not appreciate what africans complain about racism in west. Now, gambians have similar situation. That is all natural. I watched a movie long time ago, i think it was spenser tracy, or kirk dougles. anyway, the men colour his skin to get darker to experience what black men experience. than this german writer in germany, act like turkish to realize what turks go through. And the other movie was white's man burden. john travolta. a poor white man and rich black guys.
In gambia, i felt if someone has authority or power over me they could be very disriminative. Of course, not everyone like this. My point is gambia has racism as west, and its impact is more because of the lack of democracy, stable judiary system and technology/system that would reduce the impact of racism.
I guess this indian words are say it all. 'it is more important to understand than to be understood'.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 07:32:56
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| I also like to mentione that when I indicate that I am muslim especially turk, gambians attitude towards me changes positively. And some become more sincere about their hostility towards toubabs. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 18 Sep 2008 07:39:40 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 10:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by fee_sweetie
....... Are you white????
I have witnessed children throwing stones at me while shouting 'Toubab'.... But you will not understand until you have been in situations like some us 'toubabs' have been in.[/blue][/font=Verdana]
thats exactly the point.tourists/gambians all experience the same encounters. therefore there is little evidence that what has been narrated here whilst sad/unfortunate is not done because of race.
if we give taxi drivers a chance they would say nobody can beat their record on the number of times they are stopped on the road. Yellow Taxi drivers who are often ignored by tourist cannot called that racism.
What you claim happens to you simply because you are white happens and is applied to a everyone one. Hence this is why i said most of the experiences recountered as just bad encounters not necessarily racism.
Racism is associted with one party expressing a sense of superiority over the other. thats the point.
gambian children shouting toubab are not trying to make a racial point. thats a silly argument.
some members of this Bantaba can tell you their own experience going coming back home or going back to the village from europe for example. Children follow them as if they're tourist simply out of joy of seeing a loved one. Even if you pull a camera to take a picture, kids rush to you demanding that you take their picture too. you want to call this racism?
cases of banditry dont imply directly that it was racism.the motivation might not be to prove to the victim that you're better than them but to enrich oneself.
however it is important for us gambians to listen to your encounters and if we can provide an explanation here of what could be harmless cultural clashes. sometimes due lack of exposure perhaps on our part. many gambians have never travelled.
you can come on holiday and have bumsters following you on the beach. it can be annoying but its not racism. they follow white tourist as well as black, indian tourist equally.
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Edited by - njucks on 18 Sep 2008 10:39:41 |
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