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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 01:26:43
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gambiabev get over yourself. I have the right to freedom of speech therefore if you disagree to my views that's your prerogative. As for me living in the place of my birth that's also my prerogative. Both I and you are British but our experiences of living in Britain are worlds apart. We have different perspectives on issues and that's what Bantabaa is about. Yes your right about me leaving Britain yes that's a goal of mine but for now Britain is where I live and have as much right to live in Britain as you do. So go and chew on that. Bev
Peace
Sister Omega |
Peace
Sister Omega |
Edited by - Sister Omega on 15 Jul 2008 01:41:01 |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 01:44:55
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Sister Omega>> Africa needs more than a wells and food aid. It needs to develop its physical infrastructure, education system and trade freely.
BornAfrican>> Sister Omega, when I walk down the high streets of England and other European countries, all I see is the pictures of malnourished African children posted on shop windows depicting a backward nation in all ways. Charities spring up from left, centre and right in the name of helping Africans. Celebrities in Europe today jumped in. In fact now-a-days, you have to go to Africa to give aid in order to strengthen one’s celebrity status. When I see celebrities who cannot even add one and one going to Africa to “save it”, my heart bleeds.
This paragraph I extracted from your posting is a major part of the solution to our problem. Africans need to be educated and we need a free and fair socio economic system at the International level.
But unfortunately, even our leaders don’t want to lead us towards that direction. It’s neither to their interest nor that of the West. When we are educated we will be demanding for our rights as we are doing here at the Bantaba. When that dream is realised, middle class families will spring all across the African continent. We will then control our resources, which is a big threat to the Western world.
Sister Omega>> Africans are more than capable of developing political systems which don't have to be modeled on western values and styles of governance. China is not a threat to Africa its policy is not to spread its political ideology it is to trade.
BornAfrican>>Kwame Nkurmah once urged Africans to form closer ties with Asia because we (Africans) and them (Asians) have common problems. Kwame had a vision. He saw the Asia of today. Unfortunately, Kwame never lived to accomplish that mission.
In the West Africans are seen as brain dead people who are not civilized and cannot develop political systems that will work. This is enshrined in social Darwinism. Recently Dr. James Watson (an American scientiest dubbed: “the godfather of DNA”), re affirmed this Darwinian ideology by saying that Westerners are more intelligent than Africans and therefore when dealing with Africans, the West should not treat us like equals. Meaning they should not treat us at the same intellectual level as they are.
Njucks>> Zimbabwe is being punished, for election related violence.Outstanding!
when i think of the elections in Pakistan,Togo, Nigeria, Kenya, Cameroun,even in South Africa during the transition, one wonders where was the world (UK) with it '' conscience''.
but you see, there are no white farmers in these countries.
BornAfrican>>
Bro Njucks, I’ve been following your postings. You’re one hell of a tough cookie. lol!!!
This is what I have been trying to point out. West is after its interest in Africa. How can they tell us they are fighting for Zimbabweans. Njucks, Zimbabwe is not going to be the last story in this land problem. the entire southern Africa has the same problem. Countries like Namibia and South Africa all have land ownership problems. Their people are landless in their own countries when masses of land is being held by Europeans whose ancestors illegally intruded that part of Africa for its climate and resources and seized the natives’ land. It will take one radical like Mugabe to change everything even in South Africa. Governments in those countries tried to redistribute land by buying it from the Whites and give it to blacks, but they (the Whites)refuse. This is simply because they have never had any respect for Africans and their governments. In fact their refusal to government policies on land redistribution is what triggered Zimbabwe’s problem. Mbeki has the same problem.
Turk>> Dalia Lama is great person and leader. And tibet is indeed under presure by china. But he is OVERRATED, as usual by western media, just like salman rushdie, as "enemy of my enemy is my friend". Dalai lama is very good opportunity by the west to put presure on the-next-super-power-coming china. Anyway, that is probably another story.
BornAfrican>> well Turk, it’s all about interest. We’ve seen all kind of demonstrations in Europe and America but their leaders are still going to attend the Olympics opening ceremony. That rude Nicolas Sarkozy was the one violently condemning China but in the end, he swallowed his words and made a U-turn and is going to China next month for the Olympics opening.
Gambiabev>>African Nations should be trying to give power to it's own people so that the people of the country have a stake in shaping it's future. Perhaps then the educated middle class would stay and support the nation building that is needed. A starting point for this is a free and fair vote. Then opportunities for employment and a decent living wage.
BornAfrican>> spot on Bev, we in Africa need to be empowered to decide our own destinies. We don’t need to struggle for our needs anymore.
But you have to realise that this is one of the greatest threats to most outside governments. The development of Africa will create shortage of resources in many countries because once we are able to build that middle class structure, we will be too strong and won’t want to get our mouths off the honey pot. We would want to take our spouses to cinemas over the weekend, we would like to travel overseas on holidays, we would want to wine and dine out, we will demand for free Medicare, we will demand for good educational institutes. All these will be supported by the vast resources of Africa which are not presently benefiting Africans but the West in particular. Africa will then tighten her grips over her resources. That day is the West’s greatest fear, because they have been having resources from Africa for free (illegally) for far too long.
Bev>> I just don't see how the involvement of china can help in anyway with this.
BornAfrican>> China is Africa’s new partner, and there is no way back. We need a bipolar world once again. There is too much hegemony with western governments enforcing their wills on weaker governments willy-nilly.
We Africans need to start this change. We need to go back to Africa to fight this battle and not just make noises. we need to sacrifice for future generations. I hope we studying here in Europe and other parts of the world will be willing and not only filled with empty rhetoric but have the urge to take back our expertise to realise the dawn of the new Africa. Brothers and sisters, we owe it to our countries for they made us who we are.
" Mankind is a single body and each nation is a part of that body. We must never say 'What does it matter to me if some part of the world is aliasing?'. If there is such an illness, we must concern ourselves with it as though we were having that illness." Mustapha Kemal Atatürk.
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 07:20:40
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Turk I couldnt live in an American state that had the death penalty (it varies state by state) because I am fundamentally opposed to the principle. So many mistakes have been made. I believe in full life sentences with no parole.
It doesnt matter that I wouldnt commit murder, it is a basic principle in my life, being non violent and not reacting with violence. I would be very uncomfortable living with the death penatly.
The Dalai Lama is the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people. He wasnt put in place by the West. A good book to read for beginners on Tibet like myself is 'A beginners guide to changing the world' by Isabel Losada. www.actfortibet.com
A bigger question I have is does business and trade have to ignore morals and values? African can invite China in to trade, but does Africa just ignore the human rights issues in China of its trading partner? Is that a luxury Africa cant afford?
Western countries are still trading in some terrible ways eg the trade in cigarettes, looking for new markets in Africa when they know the health damage cigarettes cause is morally corrupt.
I suggest people look at amnesty international and their information on China.
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 07:25:42
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Sister Omega
Yes of course you have the right to freedom of speech. Everyone should in an ideal world.
But you are SO relentlessly negative about the Uk and West I find that very difficult to listen to. Of course there are many bad things about the UK, but mnay good things to. Lots to celebrate amongst the gloom.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 09:55:42
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gambiabev. So how can you leave in a country which, without UN resolution, attack on a country killing thousands civilian as collatoral damage. I am not questioning your loyalty to UK but I am questioning your logic which does not make sense. Based on your logic, you should not live in UK either. The british agression in Iraq is VIOLENT. At least americans are executing guilty ones with trial. Iraqis, including civilians, were killed without any trial. So now you should move out from UK and come to vanatu.
Then why African can't do business with chinese, but Chine can be one of the biggest partner of west in trade. WHy do you ignore morals and values but you ask african not to ignore those values. Besides, west is already established economically, thank you for biggest economic theft of the history of the mankind i.e. americas, colonization of africa, india and slavery, but africa is not a developed nation and any economic activity good for them.
And, africa, not only china, africa is worse when it comes to democracy, human rights etc. So does your government is having trade relationship with Africa.
And why would you spend time in Gambia where there is not much democracy, human rights etc which are against your principles. Why not go to bermuda, or canaries?
I suggest your government to read amnesty international and their information on china.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 15 Jul 2008 23:20:37 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 11:24:42
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
............... questioning your logic which does not make sense. Based on your logic, ........... The british agression in Iraq is VIOLENT. .
......... WHy do you ignore morals and values but you ask african not to ignore those values.
I suggest your government to read amnesty international and their information on china.
 Turk, Born
this is the problem I sometimes have with Europeans. Its a very paternal relationship they have with Africa. we need permission to do things.
despite all the nonsense about China in Africa, lets look at the facts.the EU is the largest trading partner for Africa. Guest who is winning? In December the EU invited African leaders to Lisbon to trick them into a deal on the new EPAs.
We are not fools. There is a new type of development coming up in Africa, called resource swapping. we want roads, school, bridges, stadiums etc. if China can pay for it by accepting the resources we have its our problem.
We certainly are not experts in Human Rights to lecture China on its own record.
you see turk, last year there was a cartoon about the Prophet Muhamed in Europe in the name of free speech.to make matters worse major newspaers across Europe published the same cartoon to 'defend' freedom of expression. Fine, yet when a British historian wrote a book about the holocaust, he was imprisonned in Austria.
Again, about the death penalty. Most EU countries are against the dealth penalty. Fine, but where was the UK when Sadam Hussein was being executed in a 'show trial'. The emphasis was to respect Iraqi law as Iraq is a sovereign state and that ''He has now been held to account''!!
http://www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/press-release/2006/12/fco_hp_npr_301206_saddamexecuti
Yet, at the same time, Bulgarian nurses were facing the death penalty in Libya (another sovereign nation ), and imagine the strong opposition to their trial there. Infact the french president had to cook up a deal to release them.
we dont care what standards Europeans have,what ''we resent is their vestigial attitude'' of coming to Africa to preach to us about moral and standards.
we are not interested, and we would be fools to ignore our historic relationship with them. the evidence is quite clear.
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 18:46:23
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BornAfrican, sorry I missed your rejoinder because I was busy on other stuff. Anyway, I appreciate your response and detail analysis of my write up.
It appears you were surprise by my last contribution and I can see that it got to you. I completely understand your postings and on the contrary you are responding with emotions.
The substance of our arguement on balance comes down to the same. The victims in this case is the People and we agree on that.
The British and Mugabe have their share of the blame and we agree on that as well.
Mugabe is no longer useful to his people in Zimbawe and we agree on that as well.
The people spoke at the polls and Mugabe lost the elections and I doubt if you disagree with that do you?
So where do you and I differ in perspective? You are caught up in that old school style of blame game and cannot seems to look beyond what has happened.
My take is that enough is enough. We Africans should stop blaming the past and look in the mirror. It is because of our greed and selfishness and slaughtering each other while the rest of the world sit and laught at us.
Am saying had Mugabe and the rest of the greedy African leaders used their common sense and have the interest of their people at heart, they would not hang on to power by all means.
Had they respected themselves and their people, stood up and make sure no other people are above theirs, they wouldn't let any so called Western governments come into their bedrooms and mess up their brains and turn them against their people.
So take it bornAfrican, our leaders are to blame for anything the Bristish did in their back yards. Anything less is an act of dishonesty and inferior mentality.
"Everyman for themselves and God for us all" right? So why can't our people understand that all that glitters is not gold. Take responsibility and protect your people. Our African leaders are not doing that.
Finally, two wrongs will never make a right, am not sure where you were, but we talked about the Keyan elections in several forums including this one. I have personal and several friends in Kenya and I was monitoring the events daily.
The situation in Kenya was dangerously different than what is happening in Zimbawe. In Kenya, things were much more tense because of the ordinary folks taking revenge on one another. That is a much more concerning issue than a government machinery cracking down on people. Although one can argue to the contrary, but tribes in Zimbawe are not upto arms atleast not yet.
So for you to say that we did not care about Kenya because of the West is simply not acurate.
Kenya also had a much more stable political situation. In other words Kenya's shows more political maturity overall than Mugabe who has been in power for decades and willing to die there.
So in summary, I am not the least favor of the West and I have loudly spoken that here. What I am oppose to is to us to continue to fold our arms and blame the West. That is not going to cut it, got it bornAfrican? Next time understand the substance of a contribution before you jump into conclusion. |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 22:51:24
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| Good post Dbaldeh. That makes a lot of sense, and I concur with that position ... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 23:21:26
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njucks
The verdict.
You see
there is not ideal in foreign policy
it is all about dalasi. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 15 Jul 2008 23:22:25 |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 09:00:42
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Many interesting and varied views - but it is a mistake to hold each individual person responsible for what has been done by a government or collection of governments. Constant criticism of "the west" and "British" is (often) perfectly justified when it comes to talking about the policies of our past and present governments or, in many respects, ideologies - just as it's perfectly fine to criticise China for their human rights and many African countries for their political regimes but it begin to equate what a government or regime does as the view points of all its citizens is to begin to make mistakes about human beings.
I'm British but I am not responsible for what the West does or has done. I am not responsible for Colonialism or all the problems of the world just as all Gambians are not believers that a cure for aids has been discovered or Chinese people are against individual human rights or Zimbabweans are all corrupt.
So - it's time to notice the human, the individual and to stop tarring people with the same brush - "you" westerners, "you" British", you "Europeans" implies that we are one amorphous mass of insensitive, ruthless peoples who constantly insult and violate the rest of the world,
Not in my name ............... |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 09:30:48
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| Very thoughtful post Lily. God bless you... |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 10:05:22
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Lily, you are absolutely right. Not all citizens are responsible for the actions of their government. There are great people who disagree with their government's foreign policies.
However, you have to understand the context in which the terms are used. In a democracy majority speaks for the minority, so if the majority of the British people elect your government which makes policies, defend your collective interest and speak in your name, then am affraid you cannot separate individuals from the policices of the state.
Besides, many British if not all Britons benefit from colonialism. Part of many other nations like Britain were built from the resources of other nations. Britain as a whole benefits from slavery, colonialism, and in equal trade with the rest of the world especially Africa.
So while I understand your frustrations of the terms used in this forum, there is validity in using the terms simply because of the collective benefits driven from the policies of the government. Do you disagree?
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 10:20:50
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No, I don't disagree dbaldeh, I do not justify what has been done and what is being done but you are right, it does frustrate me!
We are all a sum of our parts and yes, our history is part of that but we don't stand much of a chance of moving forward if we constantly bicker about the past - and indeed,the present. We have to look to the future as a united peoples, free from the outrageous actions of all our forefathers and current governments! What a sadness it would be if in say - 50 or 100 years the 'West' and Africa, Britain and Zimbabwe (for example) were still arguing about whose fault it all was ....
Thanks Kay
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 10:26:34
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I concur Lily, that point has been my lines of arguement since we started this trade on this topic. Enough of the blame game, but at the same time, enough of the double standard as some of our colleagues argue here.
The people ought to hold their leaders accountable. Those of you in a much more democratic environmnet can certainly do a better job of telling your leaders not in your names any more.
There is just too much interest being protected at the expense of the poor. For once we are all human beings and want the samething in life, safety and security of our children and self.... |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 22:28:01
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quote:
Originally posted by dbaldeh
............... Enough of the blame game, but at the same time, enough of the double standard as some of our colleagues argue here.
Baldeh,
i dont wanna to give you another bad day, but your comments sum up the arguments here and indeed the split.
you see the whole point this debate is not that africans are not trying to solve their problems but rather the unhelpful outside interference.
the people who are most affected by Zimbabwe aprt from its own people are its neighbours, the SADC region. these people recognising the problem even before the election have appointed a mediator. Slow, faulty as the process maybe it is an African solution by African to an African problem. It is therefore unhelpful for others (outsiders) to demand/give instructions that an alternative that serves their purpose is the right one. its simply not fair, anyway.
Contrary to what is being painted here, Africans have always tried to resolve their problems whatever the challenge.Angola was along Civil War killing many people, it wasnt a question of a Dictator. Yes it was in Africa but it was also a product of the Cold War. Each problem must be looked at objectively and understood carefully.They are not all the same. Idi Amin was an African problem solved by a TRUE son of Africa, Julius Nyerere! In 1981, rebels siezed The Gambia killing many people. Senegalese paratroopers resolved it.An African problem solved by Africans. ECOMOG was created to resolve the Liberian Civil War and later on Sierra Leone. President Doe was killed on his way to negotiate. Nigeria played a huge part in ending those wars.
IT is misleading to say that the Zimbabwe problem is reflective of the entire continent. its not. There have been other sitautions where Mbeki is appointed as a mediator, in Ivory Coast! Did any one call for regime change there. infact there still has not been an election. Yes we have failed in some areas but we have tried/attempted in others.
Darfur is a classic problem of acute suffering. African problem. Go there you will see African peacekeepers from The Gambia. Poor as we maybe be, we are trying through the AU to do something. Do you know the reluctance of the UN even to intervene. Just to even call it a GENOCIDE is a problem. These are not happening in the past. They are happening now, today.
Dialogue is the key to any situation no matter how much you hate the other party. lack of it is what happened in Burma. Even with a cyclone killing thousands the Generals switched off. Even AID couldnt enter.
Keeping Mugabe talking through the process laid out by SAC will yield a solution. Jingoistic Rhetoric from the UK will only invite further hardline behavoir from Mugabe, and nothing will come out of it. Stupid sanctions like travel bans dont feed people it only allows Profiteering by British/Western companies.Those are the ones to be sanctioned.
if you think the situation is bad, imagine one where Mugabe stop talking and switches off. |
Edited by - njucks on 16 Jul 2008 22:34:06 |
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