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monday
43 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 18:15:27
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time will tell. On Friday almost 50,000 people went to celebrate Mandela's birthday in London. the irony is that when we Africans tried to seek Western support to deal with an African problem like apartheid where was the British Prime Minister or the West. Biko, Mandela and our children paid the final price when they called for Regime Change in Aparthied South Africa.
Njucksgood posting, but you, I think an occasion like a Mandela's birthday should have been celebrated in Africa and use the gathering as a "school". Educate the people about Africa. Dialogue, invite some great African scholars to talk about Africa. You see, we have to know the problem(s), understand it/them and accept it/them then collectively we come with a solution or at least a way out.
There is a major for we Africans, it will be difficult for us to know what really is going on cos most people now a days get information through internet, TV or Radio. But think, who are the providers of these news outlet, CNN or BBc will let "you see what they want you to see", hence occasions like Madela's birthday should be used as platform where African children will information from the "horses mouth". We have our historians,intellectuals you name them who can truly education Africans about Africa. but a dinner in London uhmmmmm i'm not saying it is bad but I think we could make much better use of such dates.
My appeal is: educate the people about the problems so we can find a solution. Today is Mugabe and may be tomorrow could be the next door so why not we educate our people about the root cause of these issues
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 18:37:55
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"dont mind these stupid British and their racist comments from Prime Minister to bantaba members." nice one , njucks. we know who you are now.
gambia bev, you should know by now that there are those on this bantaba who will always throw the race card when they have to listen to views they do not like. i am sure i am probably one of these "racists" as i dare to criticise a man like Mugabe, who is a murderous thug, but happens to be black.. but , then, you have to remember too, that as long as the apologists for scum like him continue to throw that card instead of take the facts on the chin and try and solve the problem, africa will remain light years behind where it would aspire to be.
as for mugabe being an on-tour lecturer! made my day.
some topics of value might be..
"how to torture and maim people you do not like"
"how to break the world record for inflation in one easy lesson (it is now 10MILLION %)"
"how to blame the events of 30 years ago for the burning of women and children who would vote for another man"
"how to put back the democratic cause of Africa by a century"
oh, yes,
and..
"how to plunder a nation's wealth and watch "my" people starve while my a-se-licking neighbours stand idly by"
come on , and let's have the vitriol back at me, now.i am sure i must have been racist somewhere in there as i am both british and a bantaba member.not a good combo according to our pan-african nationalist. njucks.
oh yes, i forget, he has that degree in violence he so proudly boasts about, so maybe he should be elevated to professor and join clinton and blair on their money-making beanfeast. he is aman to be proud of. an unqualified success as economist, politician, nation-maker and an all-round, nice guy who you would love to have as your uncle.
pathetic. |
Edited by - lurker on 29 Jun 2008 18:56:45 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 19:19:13
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Annan (and many other older statesmen) is not only an educator (lectures, seminars, and workshops, travelling from country to country, from university to university) for and in Africa but the whole world (not to compare) Mugabe can do likewise, “that is not too big a bite to chew.”
In my view Mugabe has not been like this from the beginning of his reign, he did some good despite the present tragic situation which is not wholly Mugabes making. (it has a specific historic). Mugabe has attained championship in the west; he was praised for his leadership in his heydays, before his problem with land distribution which was part of the agreement of independence. In the heydays of Mugabe Zimbabwe continued to concentrate her entire development on producing western luxury goods. Western investment that came into the country was geared towards safe guiding the supply of these luxuries. The sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe were to cut that investment and thereby strangulating that trade and all livelihoods attached to it. Because that trade is the sole bringer of other goods, creates jobs the effect become devastating not for Mugabe but the ordinary citizens. The obsessive manner in which Mugabe is pursued insinuates him being worthier than the rest of the country which is irrational.
There is room for dialog. This is not in defence of Mugabe but the people who are paying the price daily. It is not the time to throw out diplomacy for confrontation in the present context of Zimbabwe. Actually the possibility of negotiation is more encouraging today than ever before. Therefore to strengthen sanctions would intensify the crisis and the price people would pay too high, unless if getting reed of Mugabe is a value in itself which is unacceptable.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 29 Jun 2008 19:23:57 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 19:40:05
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annan may have deserved his status as elder statesman, learned man etc. he did not, as far as i know, murder a country.
there are loads of venerable africans who might educate their people and others, but i am afraid Uncle Bob does not get the nod. That pre-disposes that we are all ok with what he does and has done and it's all ok now, bob,.
how about we get pol-pot out of his coffin, or mobutu, or voerword, or hitler. you would all be horrified if they were alloowed to go educate the masses after the crimes they perpetrated,so why is there this constant defense of one evil man by all things african. i am very aware that the leaders of africa will bend with the political wind. look at zambia, tanzania, botswana, jacob zuma.
they all know bob's time is over and are already making the noises that ensure they keep with the in-crowd. (maybe they actually do believe he is an evil man). sure enough, others will jump on that train and , although i could not guess mughabe's actual endgame, you can be sure it is not too far away. his "own" will do him in...mark my words.but i bet you anything..he will be allowed to take his millions and die in some protected environment while the orphans of his massacres wonder where there parents went after Uncle Bob saved zimbabwe from the white man and they fancied a democratic change.
democracy in africa is now a running joke after this fiasco. don't think bob has hoped the fledgeling african democracies with their credibility ratings here very much.whoops, there goes another 40 years of progress.
everytime africa tries to get out of the quicksand, some tosser like bob drags you back in it. why the hell do you all put up with such nonsense!some of you are clearly crying in pain for the continent.yet your nations stand by and watch. how do you expect anyone to take your tears for any value when your own leaders burn babies on the news?
and njucks, you can bang on all you like about israel and china and burma, but zimbabwe is in your own back yard,as are darfur and congo. where is the african attempt to stop these ones ? your sisters and borthers are murdered by your own men!
all we get from you is bleating on about colonial racism and western neo-colonialist plots, hatred etc..not once do you ever make a plan or suggest something useful.
NOBODY DENIEs THE HORRORS OF COLONIALISM! ok.got it.
now stop whingeing and admit that some of your liberating brothers are worse than the monsters they kicked out and then do something about it. if you spend your life feeling sorry for your past, you will have no future. tough, but true. |
Edited by - lurker on 29 Jun 2008 20:23:54 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 21:12:17
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lurker, thanks
I do not share you notion that Mugabe become a “so called despot” over night and the people you choose to compare him with. With a little self-criticism you would understand you comparison is not rational but sentimental.
In your view Mugabe did no good in Zimbabwe
- he is the only one to blame for the present situation
- He should be hanged like Sadam.
- He is worthless but at the same time wanting to equate his worthlessness with the lives of all Zimbabweans together, that rationale is punishing the victim.
Another point of disagreement is how to change his function. I think Mugabe has the education and experience to be an educator like, Annan, Margaret Thatcher, Blair, Bush and Brown (B.B.B).
Nevertheless, we agree that his time is up but that does not eradicate his role in modern Zimbabwean history and the questions that lead to his “despotism”. Zimbabweans are entitled to the whole “truth”.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 29 Jun 2008 21:33:38 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 21:34:14
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janko, good to engage with you.
ok, firstly he did not become a despot overnight. he was always one. his atrocities started in the 80's and continue today -0 always against his own population.
he is most definitley not the only one to blame. he is surrounded by a cohort of younger , evil people who cajole and co-erce him into remaining their figurehead, but actually now make the dirty decisions.
I DO NOT THINK HE SHOULD BE HANGED. I think he should be tried, but he won't. he will slink off to some accomodating place or will be left to live out his days in his $50million mansion he is building, built on bodies and stolen money.
he was not worthless when he strived to liberate his enslaved people.
HE BECAME worthless like so many other african presidents , when he got his nose in the piggy bank and forgot why he was there and who he was supposed to be representing and why.he became worthless when he realised he was not wanted by his own people and then started this whole country destruction thing and neo-colonialist blame thing , to rationalise his murder of his own population.
i can never agree that you bracket this thug with annan, blair, thatcher, blair and bush. they may have benn good or bad leaders but they are not in the same division as this man.
all the time we get mugabe does this because of this. mugabe behaves like this because of the western conspiracy etc. it is now quite tedious.
his behaviour now is not related to the struggle for liberation. it is borne out of power-crazed madness, arrogance and the lust for money and control. this is now a separate matter and he brings up the past to justify this all??? pur-lease, this is so pathetic. he killls to stay in power..PERIOD.
Janko, i would never ask that the history books blank out his role in zim's liberation, in the same way that i would not expect them to use that a reason for his barbarian regime in the last 10 years.
if africans want to keep playing the blame game, they will and can do so. but they will not progress, i fear.
spain 1, germany nil..tee hee
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 21:59:38
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lurker
Was there any agreement in the document of independence sigh by the British government and Mugabe about how land reformation should be conducted and when, how, who should do what? Don’t you think that could be one of the factors that made the “despot?”
Is there any leader(s) in Africa that you think is rational, Mandela, Annan and …?
Spain would not be an easy nut to crack
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 22:47:06
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game over! viva espana.
to be honest, i do not know what arrangement was ever considered. maybe there was a vague plan, maybe an idea or two floated, maybe nothing. somebody may tell us on this thread.
when you say rational leaders, can you name some current ones? two you talk of are long gone.
zuma looks like fun (not), namibian guy bob's best mate and worshipper. nigerian guy getting roasted about corruption(surprise!), wadeof sengal seems ok, jammeh clearly not (my opinion), . who knows , Janko? i don't. but when you look back over all those dates of african independence that Youssou sings about, alot of them only became known for what they really were after they were gone and their countries ruined. zaire, malawi...
botswana has flourished - because it has reinvested its welath in hospitals , schools and so on. a leader in economic stats, but also a leader in HIV stats! can't win, can we?
the scramble for africa scrambled africa.
it has all been disgraceful in retrospect, but that recognition is not a solution. and then, when independence finally arrives, the newly appointed leaders rape their counries of what ever is left.
yes, the west and all are complicit in their actions. the world is corrupt and stinks.
but at some stage somebody has to effect a change in this practice, like now in zim. time to move on.little people matter. |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 01:05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Janko
Annan (and many other older statesmen) is not only an educator (lectures, seminars, and workshops, travelling from country to country, from university to university) for and in Africa but the whole world (not to compare) Mugabe can do likewise, “that is not too big a bite to chew.”
In my view Mugabe has not been like this from the beginning of his reign, he did some good despite the present tragic situation which is not wholly Mugabes making. (it has a specific historic). Mugabe has attained championship in the west; he was praised for his leadership in his heydays, before his problem with land distribution which was part of the agreement of independence. In the heydays of Mugabe Zimbabwe continued to concentrate her entire development on producing western luxury goods. Western investment that came into the country was geared towards safe guiding the supply of these luxuries. The sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe were to cut that investment and thereby strangulating that trade and all livelihoods attached to it. Because that trade is the sole bringer of other goods, creates jobs the effect become devastating not for Mugabe but the ordinary citizens. The obsessive manner in which Mugabe is pursued insinuates him being worthier than the rest of the country which is irrational.
There is room for dialog. This is not in defence of Mugabe but the people who are paying the price daily. It is not the time to throw out diplomacy for confrontation in the present context of Zimbabwe. Actually the possibility of negotiation is more encouraging today than ever before. Therefore to strengthen sanctions would intensify the crisis and the price people would pay too high, unless if getting reed of Mugabe is a value in itself which is unacceptable.
Uncle Janko, thanks for weighing in with some historic facts. However, for Mugabe with his recent record to serve as an educator to the African people is really very sad and degrading. No one here dispute the fact that Mugabe fought for the liberation of his people. He did some good things for his people at some point in history and he has been given the credit for that.
However, he has overstayed his mandate and usefulness to his people and country. This is why democracies establish term limits for governing by individuals. Every leader and human being has a useful phase and once that fades out one need to give up and allow others to continue building on where one left off. This is a simple call to human decency.
To be honest the only thing Mugabe can educate his people is for the rest of Africa to learn from his desperate and damaging hang on to power by all means. Yes, his bitter lessons are a food for thought for future leaders of Africa.
The question remains, how much power does Mugabe want? He has ruled for almost 30 years. He could have taken any wealth, enjoy any privilege and virtually do anything he wanted during the years he has been in power. So what is it really does he and African leaders like him want? He has defied every critique and suppressed any opposition to his rule at the expense of his people. What more does he want???
Mugabe to say the least has turned from an African hero to a down ride African disgrace. The world is laughing at us regardless of whose interest is at stake.
How can any sane human(emphasis) politician hang on to an election he clearly lost? How can he contest with himself and sworn himself into office for the SIXTH TERM? What is going on in his brain?
The man is worthless to even the vultures in the forest who are out to feed on dead animals. You throw his dead body out there even the wolves will not feed on his flesh because it is worthless. This is how insane Mugabe has become. Enough of the blame game please.... |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 08:01:01
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dbaldeh....at last someone speaking sense! You have summarised what I wanted to say, but was so frustrated with the response I almost gave up!
It is easy to look backwards and BLAME. Perhaps the English should blame the Romans? 
SERIOUSLY we all know that terrible things were done in Africa by Western countries. We all know that Western countries pick their friends and enemies in Africa according to self interest. That is the way of the world Im afraid.
There are also alot of people within governments, alot of individuals and alot of charities trying to effect change without thiking of self interest but thinking of the greater good. 
To move forward at some point a line needs to be drawn under the past and we have to look at the here and now. The fact is Mugabe has outstayed his welcome. His own people have spoken and want him out. Now these people are in fear for their lives.
For things in Zimbabwe to change there needs to be a change in leadership. Of course this will not change anything overnight, but perhaps it could be a turning point.
It will be interesting to see what happens in Egypt today. Will the other African nations condem him? The world is waiting to see. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 09:12:48
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Very sensible post by Dbaldeh and Bev. Lurker's posts however make me cringe. Lurker's perpetually dark, pessimistic thoughts are turning me off. I think it was Werner Heizenberg who said that "it is easier to be pessimistic, but intellectual pride require that we are optimistic". Could Lurker please calm down and be objective? Could Lurker please recognize that Zimbabwe is not Africa? That there are many countries in Africa where democracy and the political economy is working? Can Lurker please recognize the African effort both within and outside Zimbabwe to pressurize Mugabe to quit or make concessions? Did anyone hear Bishop Demond Tutu's comments on BBC last night? Could Lurker please understand that these desperate actions by Mugabe are largely internal political pressure on him?
Like Janko said, Mugabe's policies were very much praised as successful in the past, but I agree that is not to excuse for the terrible acts he is committiing today. However, there is effort to resolve the Zimbabwe impasse within Zimbabwe, elsewhere in Africa, and abroad.
I am optimistic that Zimbabwe will find its feet again and stand tall among respected nations of this world...
I urge Lurker to think positively and help us find solutions rather than throwing cyber-tantrums... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 30 Jun 2008 09:32:17 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 09:39:10
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kay, i sometimes wonder whether you actually bother to read anything i write. most of what you have said i have said myself repeatedly. go back and read and you will see we actually are both saying a lot of the same stuff about africa/zimbabwe on this thread.
i quoted tutu myself 2 days ago. i suppose you did not notice. pessimism does not= cybertantrums. if you do not like the tone of my opinions, then do not respond. all tyou ever do is have a go , anyway, so maybe you should ignore me.
you are possibly the biggest culprit of what i have been banging on about. you are clearly intelligent and articulate, but you just wion't take criticism from a westerner with an opinion without going all defensive. people like yopu should be leading the renaissance, not grumbling about things you don't like to hear or disagree with.dbaldeh and janko discourse with me fine on this matter. you come in with you "lurker makes me cringe" rubbish. why can you not answer the points sensibly and respond to the issues instead of the person?? you always make a personal thing with me , so i tell you what.go talk to your mates.they can say what i do, but you don't get rude on them. i am not here to fight with people like you. |
Edited by - lurker on 30 Jun 2008 09:47:09 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 10:09:22
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I have no problem with "Westerners with an opinion". You will perhaps even realize that in my writings, most of my references rely a lot on western sources.
My problem (and your problem) is your absolute pessimism, tendency to exaggerate (generalize and sensationalize), and complete lack of objectivity in almost everything you discuss and write about...
All I ask of you is to calm down, and try to look at the other side where people are making efforts to turn things around for the better. You could join those forces and offer your opinion about solutions rather than just "crying" all the time... |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 23:08:39
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
dbaldeh....at last someone speaking sense! You have summarised what I wanted to say, but was so frustrated with the response I almost gave up!
It is easy to look backwards and BLAME. Perhaps the English should blame the Romans?
SERIOUSLY we all know that terrible things were done in Africa by Western countries. We all know that Western countries pick their friends and enemies in Africa according to self interest. That is the way of the world Im afraid.
There are also alot of people within governments, alot of individuals and alot of charities trying to effect change without thiking of self interest but thinking of the greater good.
To move forward at some point a line needs to be drawn under the past and we have to look at the here and now. The fact is Mugabe has outstayed his welcome. His own people have spoken and want him out. Now these people are in fear for their lives.
For things in Zimbabwe to change there needs to be a change in leadership. Of course this will not change anything overnight, but perhaps it could be a turning point.
It will be interesting to see what happens in Egypt today. Will the other African nations condem him? The world is waiting to see.
Gambiabev, am glad a lot more people are thinking along the same lines. The writings are on the wall for all to read. Humans largely have control over their destiny. We either choose to pave the way move towards the directions we want to, or continue to play victim and be miserable until eternity.
While it is a fact some conditions were created to disadvantage other parts of the world for selfish reasons, the eyes and minds should be widely opened to see where one came from, where one is and where one is heading to. The lessons of the world regardless of how brutal they were are there for humans to learn from and think ahead. The human race is not meant to be stagnant, thus the reason for our brains.
Unfortunately, I don't expect much from the African leaders meeting in Egypt. They all perpetuate themselves into power or choose to ignore the plight of our people. I bet a statement will come out urging Mugabe to consider dialogue - 'Yah Right'. Every one of those African leaders are thinking about their own mess.
I would have been a little more optimistic if the UN will finally put in place policies to kick out any African leader who doesn't represent the interest of their people. These African leaders meeting are the despots that are ruining the future of Africa.
It is yet another fruitless summit that we have withnessed decades and decades. I just wish a mass arrest for all of them at once and send to the same prison cell. Same on African Leaders all of them  |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 23:29:50
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nail on the head, friend.
mr pres of the gabon, a country who have never ever yet had a proper election, said today " well, there was an election, and he won, so i suppose he is the president again.!"
dbaldeh, you analysed it far more eloquently than i could have.
i just want to scream at the absolutely pathetic toadying of these corrupt people who leave this continent perpetually in the toilet of humanity.their greed is your continent's failure.
wake up , kayjatta. your own countrymen are becoming as cringingly pessimistic, exaggerating and sensational as i am , apparently.
in the end, bro, the truth will out.
dbaldeh. i salute your insight. i doubt you will get the same response from kayjatta that i did when i made the same points.
shame that those who would wish to vote such a man out are killed in their own country or tongue-tied in the corridors of power by their own avarice and terror of repercussions. the summit is mugabe's road to african acceptance. only odinga had the balls to say anything, and that is because he has been through the same carnage. the yellow streak running down africa's spine is shameful.
they will all quietly concede to international pressure in the end, but only because they will be the odd one's out if they do not..baa -baa go the sheep.
i'll get my coat now. |
Edited by - lurker on 30 Jun 2008 23:38:56 |
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