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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 00:24:58
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Robert Mugabe from Liberator to Butcher, has taken his country to a new threshold. When a nation's political situation reaches a situation where options of democratic change is impossible, is military take over of the regime justified?
African leaders have squandered their democratic processes to an extend that there is no choice for the poor people except for the military to take over.
While military take over might never be desirable, can it be justified in a situation like Zimbawe? We have witnessed in the past in Mali West Africa when a military take over by Tumani Touray was turned into civilian rule. Could this example be applied to Zimbawe?
What are the alternatives to Zimbawe's situation? Should the UN and the world powers threaten Mugabe with military power to rescue his people? What are your views Bantaba readers???
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 15:16:07
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I believe the people of Zimbabwe need to rise up against Mugabe. Clearly the military will not step in because they seem to be in bed with Mugabe, likewise his fellow corrupt peers (aka african leaders). Idealy, the military can easily remove Mugabe without much bloodshed but if the military and Mugabe are in bed together, the people should rise up. They dont have to take up arms to be effective. All they need to do is sit at home and do nothing. They dont have anything to lose, because they are already hungry and there is no food.
I think Mugabe will use any attempts by the international community to force him out of power by means of military might as a rallying point against imperialism. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 15:38:26
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mansasulu,like the gambians, the shona (majority) people of Zimbabwe are inherently peaceful and placid. they don't historically like war as far as i know.i can see no yugoslavia-type uprisings here.
Zimbabwe is , i believe, currently being run by the military and Mugabe is a mouthpiece figurehead, that is all he is worth these days. they will let him stay as long as he serves a purpose. If they decide to get in bed with forces that pay more or who have a better future, they will find a way to remove him.
the west and EU will never invade , no matter what happens. they will only advise and cajole and persuade other African leaders to do the job themselves.
today ,in one of the Uk papers, a commentator simply said
"zimbabwe is an African problem, to be sorted out by Africans....but they have not got the guts".
any comments? |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 18:49:01
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| I bet if hunger continues to affect the shonas the will do something about Mugabe. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 18:55:39
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| hope so |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 22:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Mansalu, if we accept that Tsavangarai won 47% in the first round and Mugabe 43%, Simba about 8% or so then. The thing is Mugabe has as much support as the opposition, neither party can knock the other out. More importantly, if you add Simba's and Mugabe's votes, then the majority of Zimbabwes agree with the policies of Zanu-PF.
i suppose we must never forget where we came from as Africans.Never. especially to allow ourselves to be pawns in the game of Chess that is Africa.
The western media/leaders are not interested in Africa. how many elections have seen smooth transfer of power, do you see the reverse positive coverage?
its reported today in almost every Western media, especially the BBC that the ANC condems Mugabe. Thats may be true but what the ANC also said,in a balanced statement was not only to condem violence but also international interference/intervention. more importantly they gave the problem its rightful historical perpective is..
"No colonial power in Africa, least of all Britain in its colony of 'Rhodesia' ever demonstrated any respect for these principles,"
you will not see that staement on the BBC.
Time will tell then the West pull the plug on President Tsvangarai, let him enjoy his 15mins of attention.
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 15:13:56
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Njucks, African leaders have a reputation of rigging elections. True, the west is trying to see the back of Mugabe for their own vested interest, but on the other hand, the people of Zimbabwe have spoken clearly that they dont want Mugabe. This is what is relevant here. The last elections show that the majority of Zimbabweans dont want Mugabe. Not only that, Simba's party pledged to support MDC. Now we all know that this does not necessarily translate into votes but the fact that Mugabe clearly does not have the mandate is quite telling.
The west aside, Mugabe's clearly lost the plot. The fact also remains that his people are hungry today because of the policies he failed to tackled at or right after independence (the issue of land redistribution). Out of political expediency he ignored it at the detriment of his own people, now the west (as they always do) turned against him and all of a sudden he made land redistribution a rallying cry against western interference.
Was Mugabe thinking about this day when he was being wined and dined at the royal courtyards around the world...(by the way the Brits are trying to strip him of his Knighthood). The answer is an unequivocal NO!
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"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 18:22:26
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Njucks, for the interest of Zimbawe and its people no one wants Mugabe even the people who voted for him. Zimbawe is a symbol of African disgrace right now. Forget about the West or what they said. Mugabe hate himself and his people.
What kind of legacy does he want to leave behind when he dies shortly? Does he even know what legacy is all about? How can a man who stood up and fought for his people be so blinded in power? How much power does African leaders want?
This is just a disgrace to Africa and our people. What kind of message those this kind of leadership send to young African intellectuals who are working so hard to compete against the rest of the world in their own backyards?
It is just sad sad sad and really sad.... |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 18:35:19
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dbaldeh and mansasulu, i raise my hat to your rhetoric.here are two africans who do not blame the current horror on the past iniquities but recognise that this man lets down africa by his current actions and sets no example to the likes of njucks , who constantly tries to enmesh the west and its policies . past and present, as an excuse for the atrocities of this man. Njucks, you could do worse than to recognise the wisdom of these two contributors, who can separate the different realities objectively and who do not blame the monstrosity that is mugabe on some beat-up old warcry from him about land, sovereignty and colonialism.that lost its resonance when he set his thugs loose 8 years ago when he lost that referendum.
he is killing his own people. nobody else is doing that right now.
you probably don't realise when you try and add up your stats, just how many of the zanu-pf supporters only vote that way because their CIO makes your boy's NIA look like children at play. You are dead if you are caught talking about the mdc in the wrong circles----DEAD.
most impotantly as the wise men have said, africans are fighting against all sorts of oppressions to stake their claim in the world, and the whole world is watching an african being a hitler, and other africans doing sod all about it. not really a role model these days, is he?
archbishop tut has just sadi , and i quote..." he has mutated into something unbelievable...he has become a frankenstein to his people"
precisely - there is then and there is now.
no-one forgets his role in emancipation, but it has absolutely nothing to do with megalomania, kleptocracry, murder, genocide, rape, thuggery and tyranny.
that's his real legacy. that's is what this period of history will record as his legacy. he has long undone the good he did 30 years ago. no-one will remember that in time to come if this carries on.
africa and its leaders have to stand up and be counted within their own continent if they want acceptance as equals on the world stage.
while they sit back and let their own die, as they are doing now, they remain pariahs , who are not taken seriously as players, who cannot manage their own problems, who still need their "grown-up" friends to do their dirty work.
i said before that africa is , in my opinion, an unruly teenager.
Time to grow up.
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Edited by - lurker on 25 Jun 2008 19:13:22 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 20:40:35
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i think the strenght of the Bantaba is it allows diverisity of opinion. Some of us see the situation in Zimbabwe as merely a man holding on to power at any cost. fine. some of us perhaps we are so used to violence in Africa that we dont see anything relatively alarming about Zimbabwe to invite such fanatical British led international capaign for regime change.
There is greater violence in the DR Congo just above Zimbabwe.the Security Council tells us its digusted by violence in Zimbabwe, it should visit the Congo and see what its officer are doing there. There is even greater violence in Darfur. In Tchad, in the Niger delta.
on a global level, there are no elections in China, yet 100s are killed everyday. In Burma, the opposition has being under house arrest for almost a decade. In Palestine women are children are killed every day by Israelis.the Security Council cannot find words to condem Israel's behavior. A democratically elected Hamas is isolated by the West because it suits them. In all these places does anyone call for regime change? whats special about Zimbabweans?
perhaps its a pity that there are no whites (farmers)in the biggest discrace for Africa which is Dafur, hence its overtaken by Zimbabwe and Mugabe.
thats the sad thing is all this, a huge distraction to fulfil Western/British aims in soverign African states.
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 21:43:27
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Njucks, I beg to respectfully disagree with your analysis. No one doubt that there are plenty world problems in people's own backyards including US and Europe.
Hell let me be selfish for a minute, I care more about my people being killed than other people for a change. How long can this continue when are people are maimed daily and strip of their dignity by their own leaders who were suppose to protect them? How long can we let other people cry for us for god shake?
What is more humiliating than seeing our own little children laying on a dirty floor where you can virtually see through their intestines because of mad made hunger? How long can our little sisters continue to be raped in broad day light Njucks and nothing comes out of it? What about our hard working mothers who retreat in darkness and weep day in and day out because of the attrocities on their helpless sons and daughters?
How much can a peoples' dignity be so paraded nicked in the open for the world to see? How do you compare our little childrens' welfare to that you see daily in Europe or US? Don't our people deserve a drop of hope in life?
Can you see how emotional and draining this is to any human conscience? Why our people and why our leaders are so ignorant? What power is worth the sacrifice our people are facing. Oh my dear njuck, African people deserve better atleast for once.
I am so consumed by emotions right now, I can't continue for the rest of the day thinking about this? It has once again ruined my day and that of millions of Africans. Am ashame for real.... |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 12:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by dbaldeh
....How long can our little sisters continue to be raped in broad day light Njucks and nothing comes out of it?
this is what is happening in the DR Congo, by people being paid by the Security Council. i agree, emotions can run high and its painful. but double standards is what breeds all this and we shouldnt listen to those who dont respectful human rights violation to lecture us, especially where they have vested interest.
it must matter all the time not only when Western interest are at stake. Thatcher's son was arrested for funding a plane load of mercenaries led by a former British soldier to topple an African govertment just for oil.
When the mercenaries were caught in Zimbabwe,yes in Zimbabwe, the judicial system in Zimbawe was on trial. ofcourse Mugabe as always did not listen to this crap, he tried them, sentenced them and then extradited them to E.Guinea for futher trial. if he was an Arab trying to attack a Western govertment he and his financier wuould be ''terrorist''. do you know how many Africans would have died had they suceeded?
Mugabe as stated by Lurker killed more people, apparently about 30,000 in the 1980s. No one called for regime change then. Rather he recieved a Knighthood in 1993.
Now he rigs an election and they strip the knighthood off.
here's a good article from an honest Brit on the Zimbabwe situation.He writes for the Guardian in London.i hope you have a beter day today.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/25/zimbabwe.foreignpolicy
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 15:54:07
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Njucks, I must add that you do have very solid points. However, let us not be blinded to the fact that Mugabe deserves the vilification he is receiving today because he worked hand in hand with the same self interest parties (the west) for decades. There are a lot of stooges around the world today and every one of them will meet their fate one after the other. Furthermore, we shouldn't let them flip the script whenever it is convenient or when their "friends" have deserted them.
Mugabe and all his peers should have known better that once they are of no use to the west, they will be dumped as it always has been the case. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 22:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Mugabe and all his peers should have known better that once they are of no use to the west, they will be dumped ............
thats a fair comment. You would think that Morgan Tsvangirai would be wiser?
I hope that you and I will live to discuss on this same Bantaba ''President Tsvangirai'' and the West/UK. time will tell.
sincerely. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 14:32:06
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| I think the most likely outcome in Zimbabwe will see the military step in...we will probably wake up one day with the announcement that the military has decided to get rid of Mugabe. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 20:47:09
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Njucks, it is difficult for anyone to have a better day anytime you think about the African situation.
I totally agree with your points that there are double standards and they have always and will always be there. They don't care about us and our people.
However, if they don't care about us? why can't we care for ourselves and our people? How could we overlook our dark backyards and point fingers to others?
To address an issue one must know the source of the problem. We know many problems come to us through the so called Western ideology, but we also know we are the very root of our own problems. The search for solutions must begin now since we know what the problems are.
Our people have suffered enough and I don't they can take anymore. Thanks for a thoughtful discussion but am still down on African problems.
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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