 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
jammin
Jamaica
149 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 23:45:30
|
I shall yield to my Inner child and bore some holes in Lurker' post. Just for the fun of it, and also because i cannot comment on Gambian repatriationwith any authority.
Lurker's Honest man, turn out to be not so honest after all. |
Like a colossus He doth bestride the Narrow World |
 |
|
|
kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 23:54:29
|
"Loco parentis" is an instance where an individual (sometimes an institution) acts as a parent of a minor for legal purposes.
If you sponsor or bring someone to the U.K. or U.S. for example either as a fiancee, school or general invitation, your resposibilities to that individual is narrowly defined, it is largely limited to financial support (food, shelter, etc since they cannot work) during their stay with you. You cannot be responsible for their behavior, unless they are minors. If you co-sign someone for credit or any kind of contract, if he/she defaults then you will be liable absolutely. But that is a different matter.
At the end of their legal stay, assumming they did not change their status, if they decide to go under-cover and live illegal within the country, you can inform the immigration if you wish, but it is not your responsibility to go catch them and ship them out, or even go search for them. The law, I believe is reasonable enough not to put that burden on individual sponsors. Even institutions like schools who sent out thousands of I-20s (in the case of the U.S.) to prospective students, many those students never show up to school once they enter the country. The law does not require the schools to continue to be answerable to those run-away students of even prevent them from bringing others atleast not in the short run.
I think the critical thing is, not to actively aid and abet someone to continue to break the law. Do not even be an accomplice.
Caveat: this is not a leagl advice. If anyone needs legal advice please consult an attorney. I am not an attorney. |
|
|
|
dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 01:54:55
|
Lurker definitely introduced a great topic. There are so many dimensions to the topic that needs careful analysis and understanding.
From a personal perspective, I am going back to serve my country. Whether it is sooner or later it is something I have in the pipeline. Having said that, I cannot be selfish and think about myself and what I want to do with my life without regard to my small children and lovely wife.
So many decisions on this topic cannot and must not be unilateral. I would like my kids to have all the opportunity in the world that I did not get while growing up. How do I make sure they get that without bad influence? it's a decision I go to bed every night thinking about it. So my other half family comes first before anything even my own life. So whatever decision I make it has to put them in the forefront.
Now it is a fact that close door nature of Gambian Diasporians who will do or say anything to portray Europe and America as heaven has done great diservice to our society. Many Gambians today would not have left their fairly decent jobs and families for an unknown world if they were told the realities that exist in the West.
Many of us could have done better back in Gambia than we are doing in Europe and America. Many of us if not all of us are high school and college graduates in Gambia. Had decent jobs to lived a fairly high standard of living to Gambian standards.
Today, thousands of Gambians are stuck in Europe and Armerica, they neither got an education or decent jobs to save enough money to return. They got disconnected from their families and friends, lost everything they had and can't get any where. We lost our African heritage and never could assimilate to the west.
So with all honestly, the picture of Gambians in the diaspora is more gloomy that it is portrayed. Many aspire to leave but cannot becuase of social pressure and fear of failure. They will rather fail and die outside than return and face humility in a society that looks at everyone who goes outside as a should be successful person.
So we need to understand the social context and impact of the African immigrant and why it is harder everyday to return.
I shall return God willing and do service to my people. So are many others...
Thanks |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
|
|
|
lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 09:20:34
|
"Today, thousands of Gambians are stuck in Europe and Armerica, they neither got an education or decent jobs to save enough money to return. They got disconnected from their families and friends, lost everything they had and can't get any where. We lost our African heritage and never could assimilate to the west. "
dbaldeh, you have brought up a very delicate issue of social and cultural importance. i feel that it allows me to make an observation from a european perspective, with gambian connections.i think you have noticed a really important aspect of this emigration from gambia and the continued stay in the diaspora when a more obvious choice would be to return home, having not achieved the intended goals. you say that people might face humiliation, returning home without signs of huge success..presumably material wealth.
most of the many gambians we know here came here on a visa of invitation for 6 months or a marriage visa.
i can only speak for the ones i have met and know. it may or may not be represesntative..
of the ones we know, i would guess, and it is only a guess, that the vast majority of the visa people for 6 months never went back.
a proportion of the marriages were clearly sham marriages and the incomers scarpered as soon as they got IDL or even quicker someyimes!. i know several (men imparticular) who fell for the honeytrap and are on their own after a very short period .there are some genuine successes. there are many students here who may well flourish and return to rebuild their motherland.
but, the majority we have met appear to be "extended" visitors. I am aware that there are thousands of legitimate students but we do not get to meet them.
like my bro-in-law, the opportunity to make a living, to work, to have "things" is too strong to turn away from when the return airplane is closing its doors.
most of them live in bedsits. most of them have 2 mobiles or more, lots of bling and flashy trainers , ipods etc etc.
some of them work, some don't. some never did or wnated to. an awful lot of them have become bumsters in an english style.
the problem is that you can bumse with a sense of humour and fun in gambia. it is a very much harder world to be a bumster here with serious crims everywhere from jamaica, the eastern european block etc. i know more than one who has got messed up with drug dealing and got imprisoned and deported.the temptation to spend and pose and look good uses up mimimal resources and deprives the person of the longer term financial outlook for the sake of looking fine at the momeent.
being a big man in sengambia does not make you any bigger than an amoeba in the criminal world in this country.
my brother in law just wanted to be free and work and have a life. he wanted to send money home and carve out any kind of future whuch he deemed to be better than stagnating in Bakoteh with a rubbish job and no prospect of ever having his own place or a fruitful life for his kids to come.
in all of these cases, there must have been a part of this humiliation behind the decision to stay here. why else would the very very many who have never really improved their lot by coming here, actually stay?? gambia is safe, hot, with friends, family familiarity and insulation from nastiness. yet the ones who have no quality of life do not go back/
i imagine this is true of people from all poorer, smaller countries, not just gambia.
to go home, having tried and decided that enough is enough is not an option for most. is this humiliation? is this social stigma? is this a shameful failure culturally? i do not know, but dbaldeh brings this up and i think there must be truth in this.
the line of least resistance is always the easiest to take.
|
Edited by - lurker on 14 Jun 2008 09:47:12 |
|
|
|
lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 09:23:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by jammin
I shall yield to my Inner child and bore some holes in Lurker' post. Just for the fun of it, and also because i cannot comment on Gambian repatriationwith any authority.
Lurker's Honest man, turn out to be not so honest after all.
he is a good guy, a very good guy. but he just felt hopeless about his future back home and the fact is in uk, you can find work , especially since so many brits would rather get the dole money than lift a finger.
he just could no turn his back on the goose laying the golden egg, like so many, but he at least never slipped into the wide-boy, bumster role that many do. but i know you are hving a little fun here |
Edited by - lurker on 14 Jun 2008 09:26:03 |
|
|
|
dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 10:16:40
|
Lurker, again thanks for pointing out the problems associated with immigrants in Europe and other places. There are lots of facts in what you have mentioned, but what I was alluding to is the fact that we need to understand why people leave their love ones, face counter humiliation in foreign land and yet still refuse to leave?
You asked whether returning home without education or material success is a humiliation from a social perspective, the answer is absolute yes. The only reason people leave their countries like Gambia where there has never been a civil war or unrest, is for them to try to access opportunities they otherwise did not have in their homeland. So if one leaves with a perception that one is leaving to seek for education and one returns with neither education or material wealth, then one faces endless questions why one had to leave for decades in the first place.
In a society like the Gambia, it is a legitimate question that people ask about those who left the country. Because of the social interactions and closeness the discussions of the day centers around who did what. It is something you may not understand because of cultural differences but am making it clear to you that it is the case in Gambia.
Again, looking at it from a broader perspective there is certainly a lot of blame game to go round. There are economic; social and political issues that has a direct correlation with this immigration problems. To get the complete picture of how and where the problems originated we need to understand the root course of these problems.
It is easy to say to immigrants why can't you go back, but the realities are that this world we live in is much more integrated than we think. It was only a matter of time before serious political and economic inequalities had to catch up with the realities of the world. So long as those economic and social inequalities exist the world will have to share the fortunes of the universe where ever they exist. The West the East and what not, is so interdependent that people are going to migrate towards places where there are abundance of resources and there is just nothing any nation can do about it.
It is like America and Mexico sharing borders but not the wealth of one nation. This is unrealistic and people will cross over from Mexico to the United States. This is why the economic prosperity of one nation or union only leads to more chaos in the world. The economic and political policies of world powers is what is coming back to haunt them.
More questions lingers on this topic.
|
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
|
|
|
lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 11:42:22
|
i have re-read my previous contribution and feel that i have probably exaggerated the number of "bumsters" in relation to the number of people here who actually do not adopt that pattern of behaviour.but i was referring to the people we meet, which may be well not be representative of the majority. maybe it is an indication of who we hang around with!!
seriously though, i am more aware these days of the stigma of returning empty-handed as i have been in gambian company for a long time now.
the exodus here is based on financial/educational motives, that is for sure.
the return , ironically seems to be similarly based!
those who have made money and do not go back may well have had the best intentions but cannot leave the earning environment.
those who were never going back simply do not. those who were set upon returning and do are the future captains of industry, politicians, business entrepreneurs and the very future of gambia.
one just has to hope that Gambia itself can develope, improve, nurture its talents and generally offer an environment that gives the likes of you a country that welcomes you, encourages you and wants you back. Until the country itself looks introspectively at what it has to offer to returning diasporans and makes changes, it will just bleed out. |
Edited by - lurker on 14 Jun 2008 13:59:49 |
|
|
|
kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 18:29:14
|
I tend to believe Lurker's posts are indeed one big exaggeration. I do not know the kind of Gambians he deals with, but most Gambians I know off and deal with in the U.S. and elsewhere in Europe are very successful. They have been successsful back in the Gambia, and they continue to be successful here. Many face difficulties that come with being an immigrant (lots of times their qualifications and character does not receive the rewards they deserve) but they strive for excellence.
If you refer back to the recent report by the Central Bank of the Gambia, you will see how vital the diasporan Gambians are to their homeland. So being outside is not stopping them from contributing.
Another thing is that immigration is a fact Lurker has to contend with. People all around the world are moving about for all kinds of reasons. The Gambians,other Africans, Chinese, Cubans, Mexicans, the French, Germans, the English, the Indians among many. Matter of fact the number of Indian migrants (post-graduates) in the U.S. is perhaps far more than the number of all Gambians for example. Talk about the Chinese? Look at the number of internal migration in Africa, Asia, Europe, America, and elsewhere. And this has nothing to do with R.K.Udo's "human cash crops". As far as I know, U.S., Canada, Britain, and Australia are all running visa programs to lure migrants into their countries.
It is perhaps important to mention here that the independent movement of the late 1950s and the 1960s that set the stage for the liberation of Africa from colonialism started here in the diaspora, with Nkrumah and others studying and residing outside the continent. You will perhaps witness a second wind of change by the African diaspora in your life time.
Illegal migration is wrong, and those who are illegal migrants should either regularize their status or return home. But to tell legal and genuine migrants to go home, in my view, borders on intolerance and xenophobia.
No matter how good a country becomes, it cannot zero out migration. Humans are wanderers by nature. It is part of our evolution process. |
|
|
|
lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 18:43:15
|
kay, you may meet different people than i do. nearly all the gambians in the diaspora i have met are totally unsucessful.As i said , i may mix with the wrong people.and, do you think all the posts i made on this thread are big exaggerations, or all of them in general!as always, i guess we will have to discuss this. i do not deal with US gambians. I deal with uk gambians. . i deal with a certain selection of them, which i have admitted may not be a representative proportion.what would you like from me?
are you saying that i said legal and genuine migrants should go home? |
Edited by - lurker on 14 Jun 2008 18:45:48 |
|
|
|
kaanibaa
United Kingdom
1169 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 18:43:56
|
| Well said brother Kayjatta. I duff my hat to you ....hear! hear! hear! as the Late Honorable H.Semega Janneh used to shout; at political rallies,in support of his comrades . |
|
|
|
dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 09:38:56
|
I also believe that Lurker actually either hang out with the wrong group of people or he has some bitter experience with Gambians that he find difficult to comprehend.
I agree with Kayjatta that Gambians are some of the most successful immigrants either in Europe or the United States. Some of us came from barely making it out of high school, but many were able to secure jobs work two or three jobs go to college and transition successfully into the job market. Many in Uk and particularly the United States own expensive houses both in Gambia and their countries of residence. Many are highly entrepreneurial and own successful business both in the United States and Europe.
In many cities in the United States for example, Gambians are rated as among the highest product of college graduates. Our work ethic is next to none and our loyalty is unbelievably superior compared to locals.
I wish lurker will visit Gambia and see what the Gambian in the diaspora are able to achieve. Today majority of us will live a comfortable life anytime we return to home country.
To lurker's credit though there are successful and unsuccessful people in any society. Today in the UK there are hopeless UK citizens roaming the streets despite all the opportunities they have. In the US more Us citizens are homeless than any other immigrant group. The same thing for Gambians, there are definitely hopeless Gambians who will hardly success no matter what.
May be Lurker need to know where those Gambians are located so we can reach out to them with some advice.
Just a thought. |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
|
|
|
lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 10:00:45
|
i have never pretended to know the hard-working , indusstrious gambians here or the students, cos in general i do not.i am sure there are thousands.
being abroad and sending money home for food and bills is one thing. the point is not really about money, more about
returning home to impart your skills, knowledge, experience and to foster a brighter, more capable and educated next generation is even better, i suggest.(dbaldeh lists many factors on another thread today which he feels may help in that respect.)
how many go home once they have achieved abroad, to do exactly that. that's what i asked before.it's about balance.
by the way, if you look at the success rate of migrants to the uk, you can see how well the jews, the indians and now the africans do, because they have a work ethic and an educational ethic which shames many brits. they become the professionals of the next generation and deservedly so.i agree with my friend Kay when he says there will be an african second wind. problem is that it is happening out of africa.
what happened to the afro-caribbeans? they got here 50 years ago, but for some reason you do not seem to see lots of caribbean doctors , dentists, lawyers and accountants etc, in proportion to the numbers and time they have spent here, compared with, say, the asian communities , who produce huge numbers of the above? why is that? |
Edited by - lurker on 15 Jun 2008 10:15:34 |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12313 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 21:43:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by dbaldeh
Lurker, again thanks for pointing out the problems associated with immigrants in Europe and other places. There are lots of facts in what you have mentioned, but what I was alluding to is the fact that we need to understand why people leave their love ones, face counter humiliation in foreign land and yet still refuse to leave?
Very simple,to get money to have a better life for themselves and their families.
Some hope is better than no hope |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
Edited by - toubab1020 on 15 Jun 2008 21:45:00 |
|
|
|
Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 00:38:44
|
This is an interesting topic, coming from an immigrant family myself. The major reason why most immigrants stay in England longer than they anticipated is when they have children. Then comes the dilemma for parents do they wait until their children finish their education before they leave the country? Or do they interrupt their children's education and take them to Gambia? As for successful Gambians I have met quite a few both in the UK and in Gambia. For example Gambians I know work in a variety of sectors in the UK some in Administration, Security, Media, Social Work,Retail, Food & Hospitality, Teaching, Non -Governmental Organizations, Warehouses, Support Workers, Social Services,Nursing, and other international agencies. After all not all Gambians are lazy as the stereotype would like us to believe!
The general consensus amongst is that they all intend to return home. The time limits vary but their long-term goals are to return home and assist in the development of the country in shallah. In reality they are all contributing to Gambia's development by supporting their families at home in the meantime.
Peace
Sister Omega
|
Peace
Sister Omega |
Edited by - Sister Omega on 16 Jun 2008 00:44:40 |
|
|
|
kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 07:04:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by lurker
kay, you may meet different people than i do. nearly all the gambians in the diaspora i have met are totally unsucessful.As i said , i may mix with the wrong people.and, do you think all the posts i made on this thread are big exaggerations, or all of them in general!as always, i guess we will have to discuss this. i do not deal with US gambians. I deal with uk gambians. . i deal with a certain selection of them, which i have admitted may not be a representative proportion.what would you like from me?
are you saying that i said legal and genuine migrants should go home?
If i may tell you the truth Lurker, your posts are mostly not only exaggerated (blown out of proportion) but also very stereotypical. You always seem to rely on a very small sample and generalize it to a whole population, and your theories premise on totally bad studies. You perhaps need to know more Gambians outside your small circle of losers and failures. You could have learned a lot from the people on this Bantaba, but apparently you are not.
In Gambian culture (and i am not a huge traditionalsit), asking a guest if and when he/she is leaving amounts to kicking him/she out. But that is not the point here. The point is that your question has the assumption that Gambians and perhaps others are overstaying their legitimacy in Europe and America, that they are better off in their countries of origin. Your questions ignored the large numbers of Gambians returning home each year; but then you are probably not aware of that...
You have just made another rash (stereotypical)statement about Jamaicans. Why can't you stop judging people you do not know anything about? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
© 2005-2024 Nijii |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
