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Prince
507 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2008 : 20:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by mbay
Look in scriptures and you will see that the Prophets don't arise in the peacefully nation, every prophet that has come in every nations have the meaning in that nation.
Prophecy is not politically, Prophet cannot be choose by mankind but from His majesty(The most higher)
Mbay,
We are talking about the same fellow. He is neither black nor a revolutionary; in fact, he is an aristocrat who believed that he could set moral standards for the rest of humanity.
Since he is a religious figure and of blue blood, I’ll self-censor myself. Maybe his rebellious acts were glorified in German literature because he was approved by Martin Luther, who hyped his actions.
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"When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty." |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2008 : 21:05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by BornAfrican
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if Africa (as we know it today) represented a nation in the past, then it received a prophet because that is what Allah said in the Quran.
Mansasulu,
this statement does not make any sense to me with all respect. Africa has always represented the black nation long before the term 'Africa' was coined by conquerors but we never heard of a black prophet. there never was one. you know why we will never know? because we Africans know more about only Arabian and European history. we know nothing about our own. sad story. when i was a child, they will tell me about the story of Arabs but no one dares talk about people like Kelepha Sanneh, Ansumana Manneh, Ngaling Sonko, Musa Molo and others. You know why? they were made to look inferior in our records. Ask any 15 year old Gambian about the people i mentioned, and i bet they don't know them. on the contrary, ask them about the lowest of Arabs in history and they will will tell you even their favourite meals.
bro, i think there has been and there's some kinda 'leg pulling' in this whole thing.
All known/significant prophets are from MIDDLE EARTH, so is all monotheistic religions.
Africa acquired its religion, culture, history and all other important identifiers of a people from FOREIGNERS.
Amazingly, some people deliberately refuse to accept this fact. The fact that Africans are FOLLOWERS since time immemorial.
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"When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty." |
Edited by - Prince on 07 May 2008 21:08:01 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 00:01:24
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| the clolour question is very nervey. western europe are as well living their christian lives from eatern religion. jesus is a jew. paul a jew. this two are the base of christianity. we should try to look into the messages of a religion not the colour of the messenger. some of our african beliefs are similar to what christianity or islam contains. God's message to human kind is one message. Worship only me. african's believe in one god but in a different way. some nations rejected their prophets. i belief that we had our own prophet but his message was for his generation. let us search for our history but bearing in mind that religion is suppose to be one for all and sundry. it is human handiwork and tampering that make God to re-enforce more messengers. we are all humans and our colour shouldn't be a bareir in our individual faiths. let us look into our humanity and accept our differences. as blacks we shouldn't accept inferiority from any one. we should be proud of ourslves but not arrogant. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 01:11:05
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Prince > All known/significant prophets are from MIDDLE EARTH, so is all monotheistic religions.
BornAfrican> "All known/Significant prophets", i quote you. this is how i interprete Eurasian religions. the christian church in Rome had stretched its tentacles to all parts of the world imposing its ideologies on those parts it reached. through the church, Europe was able to phylosophically conquer most parts of the world. conquest is not only a physical thing achieved through wars. conquest is also controlling the way one thinks and act. through this, Europe was able to impose herself on all of us.
Arabians had to act in some way. they had to spread their influence as well to counter balance Europe's influence and dominance. through religion, they were able to culturally transform some of us. infact almost all our social activities like Kulliyos/ngentehs (naming ceremony) and funerals are all done the Arab way.
Prince > Africa acquired its religion, culture, history and all other important identifiers of a people from FOREIGNERS.
Amazingly, some people deliberately refuse to accept this fact. The fact that Africans are FOLLOWERS since time immemorial.
BornAfrican > well, if we have to think and judge based on foreign ideologies, i'm sorry, theres no way for us and the future generations. we have to change our mindsets. unfortunately, we've been clinging and still continue to cling on to these ideologies more than the ones who brought them to us. it is an irreversable catastrophe. one thing that gets me gutted and continues to crawl under my skin is the reality of we letting go of our languages for languages that we spend large part of our lives learning. in the Gambia for instance, lots of people dropped out of school not because they are stupid, but because they are being thought in foreign languages. we have to "cram" our notes in secondary schools, because we don't know what the hell they are saying. we cant analyse them. this is where our ancestors failed us. they never united us, so no prominent figure came out of Africa. its like when a wolf sees a lame bufallo among the pack, it pounces on it. this is exactly what Europe and Asia did. they knew we were weak and disunited with leaders who were as blind as a bat in the daylight. its like a curse casted on generation after generation. its translated into the modern day monsters we have running our countries all over Africa. we will always followers but some of us who see this and know it will remain to refuse. |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 01:37:09
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Ok, lets come back to the main topic here. Hebrews
the word Hebrew has its origins in Africa, in a country called Egypt.
According to Ali Mazrui, the term Hebrew was not racial or ethnic, but class-related. it was derived from the word Habiru or Hapiru which referred to a class of people in Egypt who hired out their services in exchange for goods or other forms of payment. for some reason, they became a threat to a particular pharoah, and he enslaved them.
if truly, these Habirus or Hebrews were a class in Egypt, then truly they were Africans.
for instance, Moses' name from the Hebrew word Moshe (meaning 'is born) is originally Hebrew. Infact Moses' name could be tied to Tutmose, one of the Egyptian kings (if i remember right). Tutmose means ("The God Thoth is born"). you see, the name mose/moshe is of egyptian origin
it is through the migration of the Habiru tribe (Hebrews) to the middle east that we had jews in Israel. Originally, there were semites. how they ended up with blue eyes and ginger hair, i don't know. (no offense please) |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 12:51:07
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BornAfrican, I agree with everything you are saying and I am sure many people would not be surprised at this because I have been saying similar things for a while now. Bilal [the only black prominent figure in the beginings of islam], was an Ethopian slave freed by Abubacarr. One of the major reasons why he was freed was because of his voice. We cannot escape from the fact that he was a slave. In Africa and particularly in Senegambia, we tend to look down upon the pure pagans e.g the pure pagan Jolas and Sereres who have not allowed their religion to be influenced by neither islam nor christianity. We call them yeferr/kafirs etc and their rituals we call fetish. Yet, it is these religions that had survived for thousands of years long before islam or christianity. As the minority, we domonise them. Yet they possess somethings that the majority will never possess, -: 'honour; non followers of foreign religions but followers of ancient belief system passed down from the ancestors for thousands of years; they are the true guardians of Africa's ancient religion. Take india for instance, the majority still hold on to their native religions, the same cannot be said for Africa, because we do not value ourselves enough and tend to put aside our own belief system that has been practiced for thousands of years, in favour of foreign religions. In ancient times, the supreme God of the wolof people was called Ngeej [the immensity], I bet now not a single wolof knows who Ngeej was, because I have yet to see a wolof who is not a Muslim. Although some may not be practicising muslims, they will still term themselves as muslims when asked. The Sereres and Jolas on the other hand responded differently, they still continue to this day to honour their Gods and Goddesses and hold ancient festivals in memory of them - and thereby connecting them to their ancient ancestors who have long departed. Go to Sine and Saloum for instance [the homeland of the sereres], there are at least twenty religious festivals each year most of them as ancient as the tribe itself. Some of these ancient serere pagan festivals, the senegambian muslims have borrowed since the and gave an islamic twist - e.g. Gamo [from the ancient word Gamahou, which was an annual festival by the saltigues [priests of the Xerem [temple/shrine] to predict the winter months. Another example Tobaski [an ancient hunting festival]. None of these had nothing to do with islam, exited long before islam or christianity. These things, the African muslims and christians will never be able to experience because they have abandoned their ancient religion in favour of foreign ones. In Africa, and particular in Senegambia, those who are muslims and christians still take foreign names or derivatives of them e.g. fatou [from fatima which is Arabic], etc. In the pagan religion e.g. the serere who belief in Roog Sene [their superior god], each name has a meaning passed down from their ancestors since ancient times. Therefore, if you are looking in the so called world's great religions e.g. islam and christianity for African/black prophets, i doubt you will find any. But if you refer to the indiginous ancient african belief systems -, even more ancient than these so called great religions, you will find hundreds.
Some people may hi-jack my phrase 'foreign religion' and run a mile with it to come back at me. Before you do, I use them in the context that 'they were not indiginous to Africa'.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 13:31:59
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Tamsier,
you are surely right by calling them "foreign religions". they aren't indigineous to Africa. Tam, you see we have always felt so inferior to Eurasia and always act childish to them.
Everyone in the Gambia has thrown away everything. it is sad. We don't even know our history, because we are not taught about it at school. here we got the lost tribes of Sub Saharan Africa. what a disaster!!!!
no wonder we are in crisis today. because we don't know where we are from. how the hell could we know where we are going? i get gutted when i think about our situation. when the foundation ain't right, the rest crumbles. the foundation is based on foreign ideologies. they are not ours.
I swear Tamsier, one day i went to visit a family and we were chatting. they were talking about prayers. a teenage girl brought up a point. she said when she prays, she does not know what she says. she recites from the Quran, but she does not know what she says.
now, here is a rational mind speaking. if she had to pray in her language, i bet you she would have been closer to god because she would have known more of who god is.
The indigineous Serers and Jolas surley have found their way. unfortunately they too fell victims to the majority's disastrous error. in the meant time, they've found their way (as Kung Fu Ze or Confucious would put it). their's is the spiritual happiness. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 16:02:53
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I cannot believe how you two are comfortable with the amount of hypocrisy you too are flounting. For once, you advocate following "indigenious african religions" and yet still you are basking in the luxury of the western world...a la living in the United Kingdom. When it comes to the convenience of this world, you are for living a "Eurasian" dominated way but when it comes to spirituality you do not want to entertain the similar standard.
There is a reason Europe and Asia are ahead and that does not stop at material advances of this world only. Our ancestors did not live any solid and authentic recordings of their ways of worship and I am sure they did have ways in which they worshipped. We don't know our history because it was lost so lets get over it and move on to the next best thing. In a way it is good that we lost our spiritual history because what we do have now is much better and universal.
We can tout the way of the indiginous serers and jolas but none of us here on this forum wants to live their lives or a continuation of their lives. I am a serer and I for once dont want to. Now you can call me brainwashed or what have you, but at least I am not been hypocritical. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 16:41:37
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Mansa Sulu >I cannot believe how you two are comfortable with the amount of hypocrisy you too are flounting. For once, you advocate following "indigenous African religions" and yet still you are basking in the luxury of the western world...a la living in the United Kingdom. When it comes to the convenience of this world, you are for living a "Eurasian" dominated way but when it comes to spirituality you do not want to entertain the similar standard.
BornAfrican > well, if you see my arguments as hypocritical, with all respect, that’s the way you interpret my reasoning.
Mansa Sulu > you advocate following "indigenous African religions" and yet still you are basking in the luxury of the western world...a la living in the United Kingdom.
BornAfrican > well, what’s the luxury in the United Kingdom? Not for a sub Saharan African. I am only a student here. I should be back in the Gambia next year to serve my motherland with love and sincerity by the grace of our ancestors.
Mansa Sulu > We don't know our history because it was lost so lets get over it and move on to the next best thing.
BornAfrican > you want me to get over the lost of my history? My history is who I am. What do you call “the next best thing” that we have to move on to? C’mon brotha, please restructure that argument.
Mansa Sulu > In a way it is good that we lost our spiritual history because what we do have now is much better and universal.
BornAfrican > I can’t believe you said this brotha. Yeah, we lost who we are; we remain to be no body in the world today. Can’t you see it? This is the very mindset our forefathers had so let go what was given to them by their forefathers. What is universal? Being universal and dominant are two different things. You might find Islam or Christianity everywhere but neither religions will never dominate the world.
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 17:29:51
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Mansasulu, I dont believe you are brainwashed at all, because in my book, those who allow themselves to be brainwashed are called weak. I will now destroy you points one by one.
You call us hypocrites because we are 'living in the west and basking in the luxury of the western world'. Speaking for myself, I was born in England. I have paid taxes for all the time i have lived here and set up employement for the local community and so were my parents when they were living here decades ago - so why the hell shouldn't I and besides I am moving back to Gambia this year. This is not even the point, but i just thought i will throw it to you to bite at. Christianity was not a british invention, it was brought to them just as writing was brought to them. If you are so thick that you didn't know this, then I suggest you go back to school.
You say we dont know our history because it was lost so lets get over it.
My answer to that is you dont want to know and you have demonstrated it exactly here by your unintelligible posting. I am well versed on our history and I am not the only one. The reason for that is, because I and others want to know and have always wanted to know and learning new things every single day. Oh no Mansasulu, our history is not lost, it is you and people like you who look down upon it due to your inferiority complex who refuses to acknowledge it and and refuses to know, but it is there for now, at least for now. Because if we continue to breed more people like you, then it would be lost forever. Although Africans except egypt didnt write their history as a general rule, our history and ancient traditions is passed down in our customs, songs, beliefs etc. A little more research from your part, you will find that the first foreigners who recorded in writing our history, substantiate what these songs, and traditions states. For example, as I have mentioned elsewhere, at the battle of Kirina when Sunjata Keita defeated the sosso king Sumanguru, it was that defeated which later paved the way for islam to grow in that great kingdom [mali]. The medieval Arab chroniclers and travellers only mentioned the spread of islam in that kingdom and surrounding kingdoms. They do not mention the battle of kirina, neither do they mention sabiji where the noble clans first gathered to ensure that Mali, and only Mali, will be the successor of the great ancient ghanian empire. What these foreign travellers reported only provided the bones of our medieval history. It is our ancient traditions, songs passed down from memory and handed to generations to generations, mostly by the jalis/geweels who did not only fill the bones with meat but go beyond that. This is how we have documented our history, and there is nothing to be ashamed of. As I have said elsewhere, any professional genealogist or family historian will tell you, before looking at the official records, the first thing you should do is to talk to the elders and listen to their stories, because what these stories can tell you, the archives and history books will never be able to tell you. You look down at them and you look down upon your own distruction. As writing goes, although we did not use it in ancient times to record our history, the reason being Africa's isolation, nevertheless, there were well known ancient societies who used symbols to communicate between themselves. One of these being the Dogon Society of Mali. Not only did they have their own ancient symbols of communication, they had their own Cosmos and were very well known for their understanding of the lunar system. Only them and ancient egypt possessesed a good understanding of that cycle, which led the ancient egyptians to formulate a calender which would later be changed by Julius Ceaza of Rome that would become known as the Julius calendar and later the Gregorian calender that we all use today. It is true that the Dogon society and other secret african societies like it didn't teach their secret writings to the masses. These were secret societies for noble men and priests. The same thing holds in Europe e.g. Britain. When writing was brought to them, it was only the church and nobles [all men] who learned and used it, even up to the 18th century to a lesser extend. The same holds true for those ancient secret societies in Africa.
Mansasulu, you can worhsip any god you wish, that is your choice, this was a discussion topic, there is no need for insults - and especially to the Serere and Jolas. Why do you find the need to do so? |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 08 May 2008 17:56:20 |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 18:26:58
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Tamsier,
Despite the fact we have lost most of our history, we should be careful in the way we put things in perspective. This is because Islam and Christianity cannot be held entirely responsible for the African debacle. Even though some African intellectuals like Ngugi Wa Thio Ngo, of Kenya has expressed in many of his writings that Africa was conquered thanks to the ‘holy trinity’ of the ‘The Bible, The Coin and The Gun’. In Ngugi’s theory the Europeans first unleashed the Priest to brainwash the locals, the merchants followed and then musketeers. Other African writers such as Ferdinand Oyono have also alluded to the same theory. I am yet to see where the Arabs and Muslims are reported to have done the same. It is also good to note that Arabism(arab language and culture) are different from Islam. All Arab countries have a different arab dialect which is local to them. This form of dialect is called the darajia, whilst the Arabic language of the noble Quran is in Fuusha. No Arab can read and understand the Quran if he or she doesn’t study it like the Gambian, Afganis, Englishman, Turk, Chinese etc etc. Infact 82% of the present World population are Non-Arabs and only 18% are Arabs. Of these 20% are in Africa, only second to the 30% of Indian subcontinent. Now if we blame Islam for our problems e.g. poverty, remember most of that 20% would go to represent all the North of Africa , who are the prosperous of the African continent anyway , safe for South Africa, Botswana, Mauritius all of whom have respectable percentages of Muslims as well. There are some African countries with very low figures of Christians and Muslims and are they better of? Hell no. One such example is in West Africa, Cape Verde Islands has o% of Muslims and Guinea Bissau has ingenious beliefs as her premier religion yet are they any better?No again.
On the issue of using Arabic for prayers, even the Prophet was illiterate and had to learn. It not only Gambians or black Africans that recite their prayers in the language that is not theirs. Amongst the USA’s 10million Muslims a high percentage are not Arabs and they all recite the Quran in their prayers in Arabic.Yet this is the most powerful state in world and probably its wealthiest.
Born African: I swear Tamsier, one day i went to visit a family and we were chatting. they were talking about prayers. a teenage girl brought up a point. she said when she prays, she does not know what she says. she recites from the Quran, but she does not know what she says. Born African ,the girl has been failed by her parents. They should have ensured that even the limited amount of suras she recites, are well understood by her. Infact in this century there is no excuse whatsoever for a muslim to pray and recite the holy Quran whithout having an idea abt the meanings of the words. There are attempted translations of the Arabic Holy Quran all over the place. In my University here in the UK, such people are helped by volunteers. Most of these people are Asian-Brits as they are referred to here. They were born and bred here but of Pakistani or Asia origins.
Brothers Religion is NOT to blame entirely for our failures, just as colonialism CANNOT be blamed entirely for our failures.
The Africans have to emulate the Mandelas, Sankaras, Nkrumahs, Nassers, Tutus, Osei tutus, Musa Mollohs, Hampate Ba etc etc
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 18:45:56
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Tamsier, I admire you knowledge of our history and you quest to learn more about it. However, you and I must agree to disagree that knowing more about that history will make us better off than we already are. You admitted in your posting that "It is true that the Dogon society and other secret african societies like it didn't teach their secret writings to the masses." Our history was lost because it was not all inclusive and to that I do not cry over.
Both Christianity and Islam dominated the world in the past because these two religions are more robust than our lost African Indegeneous Religions. What I have lost in the demise of our forefathers, I have found something far better in that Islam. Again, I may be a Serer with ancestral roots in Sine but I proudly accept Islam as a more fitting culture. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 19:06:29
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| Brother Madiba, where did i blame religion for all our failures in this posting. I responded to the issue that was posted, and in my last posting I responded to Mansasulu's insult. As far as I can remember, I never even mention 'failure' or alluded to the word. I am surprised that you didn't even respond or commented on your muslim brother's [Mansasulu] insult. You and others have always accused me of criticising islam and now I mention christianity in the context of these discussions, you accuse me of another thing i never did. One of the main issues on discussion was whether there were black/african prophets? In summary, i said you are very unlikely to find them in the so called great religions e.g. christianity and islam, but if you look at the ancient indiginious african beliefs you will find hundreds. I also talk about how e.g senegambians put aside their ancient beliefs in favour of 'foreign religions'. I qualified myself by saying that, 'foreign religion' in this context means that these religions were not indiginious to Africa which is true. So please tell me where i have blamed religion for our failings. The person you should be attacking I would have thought was Mansasulu for his heracy. Regardless of what religion you or anyone follows, may be i am overeacting but i find it rather distasteful for insulting our ancestors in that ghastly manner. Am I the only one who feel this? may be i over-analyse things too much. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 19:25:08
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| Mansasulu, I cannot believe you said that knowing your history would make you better than you already are. This implies that you are already perfect. I can tell you right now, no one is perfect. Knowledge in general is power. As regards to history, knowing your own history 'helps' to guide you in your own direction/future. Some people may disagree with this, that you do not need to know your history to shape your own direction. This may be true to an extend, but look deep inside some of those who haven't a clue about their family history for example, they are always taunted by their lack of knowledge even the ecomically successful ones. You cannot know who you really are if you do not know where you came from. Again some may disagree with this and they are entitle to do so, I accept and respect their opinion, but i strongly belief in it. As my uncle used to say, 'once you decapitated the roots of a tree, it is only good for one thing, FIREWOOD, and always ends in ashes. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2008 : 19:57:14
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Tam,
My mistake. Maybe i shouldn't have addressed that portion specifically to you. My apologies. However i was just chipping in the discourse as a stakeholder.
If you dnt mind me asking, do you practice any form of indeginous belief?
Just asking.
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