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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 22:34:10
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Mbay, nobody called you a terrorist - get yourself together (conquer yourself=keep your anger in check=the most excellent Jihad. That is what you want us to keep in mind).
Kayjatta, from the start i was convinced you wanted an open debate. Now it seems you want to strike back. It's a good idea to leave the topic because this way we will get nowhere.
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When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 00:07:12
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quote:
......intolerance and toxicity of the posts by Turk, Mbay, and Kobo......you need to clearly distance yourself from terrorists and condemn Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda in unequivocal terms unstead of tacitly endorsing them. To consider every criticism of Islam as PROVOCATION is to suggest you have a VIOLENT nature. Can't you take criticsm in good faith?
Kay and others
You don't get it. Intolarance with no logic. You are the ones who charge muslims as general to be terrorist by association islam with terrorism. Islam is the concept all muslims believe in. If you associate islam with terrorism and violance you are charging all the muslim regardless of moderate or radical with terrorism. Hundreds time people are trying to explain this to you guys you don't get it. There is only one islam. There is only one quran. However, individuals acts differently but that is their choices.
It is ridicolous to say that we should distance ourselves from terrorist and condemn bin ladin. Did you realize that you are accusing us to support terrorism. Tell us where we do not distance ourselves from terrorists and osama. Give some reference. As usualy you are making baseless statements without supporting arguement. We all clearly distance ourselves from terrorists and osama. Several times we did condemn terrorism. SHow us reference that we endorse him. If you can't show any supporting evidence you must take you baseless false accusations back. You are accusing that we support osama. That is an insult. WHile we do not support osama, we hundreds time explain that osama is not representing islam or muslims, he has political agenda and his action is his individual choice. Many here including myself condemn osama. But this is not the arguement here. Just like hitler does not represent all germans osama does not represent muslims. We explain that osama's action is based on several factors like imperialism, international politics. Does that mean endorsing osama? YOu say osama action purely based on islamic. We say, no, his action is not purely islamic. It is not even islamic. his action is based on imperialism and reaction to west's foreign policy. Is that endorsment? Or debate?
On the other hand, did you acknowledge that associating islam with terrorism and violance wrong? Did you acknowledge that osama does not represent muslims and he has his own political agenda? No. You accuse muslims to be terrorists and we provided you critism that it is not the case. Can't you take critism in good faith?
I already know what your response will be. Your response will be nothing. It is typical. YOu made baseless, illogical statements. When one provide counter argument. Ask for supporting references, arguement and evindence, you won't respond. Because your arguements usually weak and baseless. Or you are not capable of providing sound argument.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 29 Oct 2007 00:47:26 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 00:13:44
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Anna
Open debate? It is clearly Kayjatta accuse us by saying
quote:
you need to clearly distance yourself from terrorists and condemn Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda in unequivocal terms unstead of tacitly endorsing them
That is the point we are reacting. If that is not provacation, what is provocation?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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snuggels
960 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 04:02:48
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| Fighting fo peace is akin to fornicating for birth control |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 05:28:30
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Thanks Anna, I will do my part to have this matter rest. Finally we can all make peace with Mbay, Turk and my learned friend Santa.
By the way Santa{claus} don't forget my kids for this years Xmas toys, okay... |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 08:33:27
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Whats mean distance yourself your self from terrorist?
Anna we are with our sense and logically too,
What i just dont get here again with you as teacher is the way you are moving.
Yes we have different mind on this topic but nevertheless i don't took you out from logic group. So you should know and you knows it what kay real means, Just other opinion than us/you should not took you out of righteousness.
No one of us is a terrorist neither supporting them and if kay is from the Gambia should knows and knows it but his intention is nothing than hurting us and every logic persons will get it.
Oh Anna am with myself and very gathering , I just gets destructive when i be shaky 
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 08:34:28
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Kay
I want to give you last chance to be forgiven. Please repeat after me.
Islam (As islam means peace in arabic language) has nothing to do with terrorism. 1.5 billion people believe in a great religion. However, there are terrorists who happened to be muslims, for example Osama bin Ladin, in political stand and war with imperialists. He indeed has terrorist activities which must be condemned. However, he does not represent islam. There is no direct association between islam and terrorism. There is an association with terrorism and some people who happened to be muslims. These people abuse islam for their political agenda.
There are similar links the world experiences between crusades and christianity. Great religion christianity was abused by crusaders to attack muslim for 300 years. That was not because christianty but the maniac christians who have political agenda with turks/arabs.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 09:38:11
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Turk, it's true: awful wars have been waged in the name of religion or even worse, in the name of God. In the times of the crusades it was Christianity that spread fear and death in the Turk/Arab region and even much later in the time of the Inquisition innocent people, who might have been Christians themselves, were burnt on the stakes all over Europe. Now it is Bin Laden who uses Islam to spread fear and to kill innocent people. I am very well aware that you (and Mbay, Santa) and fortunately the majority of Muslims reject his awful campaign against 'the Western world'. But i am sure you know as well as i do that weakminded (young) people are influenced by him, as if he is giving them strength and a purpose in life. In my own country i can see the radicalisation and i keep saying it: it is frightening. And it would have been just as frightening if in our days a figure had immersed from Christianity with the same goal: to spread hatred.
The simple fact that organised religion has been used through the ages to wage war on innocent people makes me to want to stay away from it as far as i can. I have no need for it, i can contact God in my own way and i am sure He will pay attention. I do not believe that 'keeping to the rules and regulations' will make one a good person. But anyone who feels more secure in their lives with the laws of their religion: feel free and live your life the way you think best without wanting to impose these laws to others. So: i don't want to go to my supermarket and have small children pointing at the bottle of wine in my basket, shouting 'haram, haram'. What will happen when they will grow up? Is someone or some institution going to forbid me to enjoy my glass of wine? I don't think so......
I know this was an other topic, but it is what triggered me to join in these debates in the religion forum. I just wish everyone all over the world would cool down a bit and let people live their lives in their own way. People like Bin Laden make me hate organised religion, but i could just as well have mentioned the name of some Pope or other on whose orders innocent people were killed some thousand years ago. End of story! |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 09:45:08
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| Good post Anna! |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 10:38:34
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Anna why were you keeping your right face as learned person?, This is what most of ús were waiting from you and Co. with such moving text with out one side move. all though you have other beliefs/opinion No kidding but Plsn you for Keeping this your action on:
Is PEACE /RESPECT what we need with human unity not just with words but action, More from here
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2007/10/22/40645.html
With out peace from our very homes to this Bantaba there will be developments! & with out developments there will be no succeeds in healthy life & a man without healthy life what then a enjoyments are we waiting in this short time of life?
I wish we could learns from our good predecessor.
Ps.
Kay, you might be a good in person but this your move on cyber makes us all to be a strange to you. any way whether you accepts turks bid is up to you but still Salam to you.
PEACE/WASALAM |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 13:13:08
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Anna, you have very good points that I agree about your point about religion in general. But there are some fundamental differences between you and me politically. First of all when you say
quote:
awful campaign against 'the Western world'
I am shock because how can you ignore western imperialism.
Contrary to your claim that west has war on islam, actually islam is defending itself. Don't get me wrong, I am not approving how some defend islamic world. I still condemn terrorism. But west has more responsibility for the rift between western world and islamic world.
And that may be another fundamental difference between you and me which is according to you the root of terrorism is fundamentalism. In my opinion root of terrorism injustice, imperialism. I may add economic issues and even religion or nationalism but not significantly. And I will give you example. For example, during 60s and 70s, when communism was very popular, the palestine liberation organization lead by arafat was rebelling against israel because of occupation, econimc issues etc. But PLO that time was ateist/socialist movement. Arafat is not even a muslim. He was a former christian arab. Today, the struggle transform from ateist/socialist organization to HAMAS.
Currently no islamic country invaded any western country. On the other hand, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan all the gulf countries are occuppied by western imperialist forces/corporations. Until recently all the islamic countries except Turkey was under european colony. Most of them got their indepence 30-40 years ago.
You are following same tactic as Dubya, promoting fear. Islamic countries has neither have economic nor political and military power to overcome western world.
Total world GDP: 48.144 Billion
EU : 14.527
US : 13.244
Japan : 4.367
Meaning 66 % of world GDP is taken by western world. Imagine whole islamic world is sharing the rest of 33 % by China, Russia, India, Mexico, Brazil. What is islamic world, 5 %?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal))
Also, when we look at the military spending:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_federations_by_military_expenditures
World Total is: 1,200 Billion
USA + EU + Japan : 900
That means almost 75 % of world military belongs to western world. I am not sure who needs to fear? Your monster western world. Or rest of the world should have fear for their lives.The rest islamic world must share 25 % with China, India, Brazil etc.. So stop telling us about war against western world.
So as you can see your "awful campaign against 'the Western world'" is not really about west are being victim. Western world have the military, economic power to avoid your such claim. So what is it than. You are wrong. The awful campaign is against third world. Islamic world is sharing same problem. So the world is not divided west vs. islam. It is rich vs. poor. Islam happens to be in poor side. Islamic and African world have only 5-10 of world GDP while having more than 40 of world population.
quote:
So: i don't want to go to my supermarket and have small children pointing at the bottle of wine in my basket, shouting 'haram, haram'.
Another comical paronoid. Fear mongering. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/nl.html#People
Dutch 83%, other 17% (of which 9% are non-Western origin mainly Turks, Moroccans, Antilleans, Surinamese, and Indonesians) (1999 est.)
I am not sure what percentage of these turks, morrocons are potentially danger in your country. I am sure you have experience that 'haram haram', but we have the experience of 'terrorist', 'terrorist', 'barbaric', 'barbaric', fundamentalist, radical, ignorant, uneducated everyday already. So your hearing 'haram haram' is not really a potential threat. I mean muslims are less than 5 % in europe avarage.
So, really islamphobia or paronia western world or you are highlighting here is just a demonization of islam. The there is no threat. Islam has neither economic power nor military power to be a threat.
I am looking forward to hear your respond.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 29 Oct 2007 13:55:40 |
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 14:24:56
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Turk, I will answer on Anna's behalf as I know she will be too busy this week .... in response to your figures regarding the Dutch population there is always the "lies, damn lies and statistics" argument (ie you can mould statistics to show whatever it is you want the result to be)! I know that Anna lives in Utrecht and you may or may not be interested to read that the figures are indeed different there as shown here:
Taken from www.utrecht.nl
"Utrecht in figures (2005):
Utrecht has 275.000 inhabitants and will grow to 322.700 in 2015.
68% of the population of Utrecht is native and 32% is of immigrant origin."
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Edited by - MeMe on 29 Oct 2007 15:24:32 |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 16:29:47
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
I defintely want to sit back away from this topic for now and focus on other things, but i must honestly say that the amount of contempt,intolerance and toxicity of the posts by Turk, Mbay, and Kobo (I leave out Santafara this time because he seems to have chilled out a bit) is not helping the image of Islam at all. If you have to be a great advocate of Islam, you need to clearly distance yourself from terrorists and condemn Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda in unequivocal terms unstead of tacitly endorsing them. To consider every criticism of Islam as PROVOCATION is to suggest you have a VIOLENT nature. Can't you take criticsm in good faith?
"i must honestly say that the amount of contempt,intolerance and toxicity of the posts by Turk, Mbay, and Kobo ..."
Kay are you SINCERE with yourself and me (KOBO!)? Have you made proper references to my lastest comments and posts AS I STRUGGLE TO CLEAR ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND GAVE YOU ALL THE ANSWERS TO THE BEST OF MY ABILILTY:
Refer to the following posts by KOBO and rule me out as I am trying to do a good job to enlighten you & audience on ISLAM AS A MESSAGE OF PEACE FOR MANKIND, ALL RACES, CREED OR COLOUR:-
...Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 16:56:44
...Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 18:49:18
...Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 02:09:54
...Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 03:52:30
Am not yet finish as I committed that I would addressed all details on that mail line by line! I have no said anything on POLITICS YET but trying to exposed the TRUTH ABOUT PROPHET MUHAMMAD(S.A.W), ISLAM & HOLY QURAN AND ITS RELEVANCE NOT ONLY TO SO-CALLED EAST, WEST, NORTH & SOUTH, ARABS, JEWS, EUROPENS, INDIANS, JAPANESE, CHINESE, AFRICANS & BLACKS ETC BUT FOR THE WORLD AT LARGE.
REPEATED AGAIN!The CHALLENGE for all MUSLIMS, to uncover the TRUTH about ISLAM as a religion of PEACE, its beauty and GLORY!
Surely we would tackle all the ANSWERS REQUIRED TO CLEAR ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND WHATEVER IS ON THAT DVD COMMENTARIES, OPINIONS, ASSUMPTOIONS & CONCLUSIONS as we reveiw these websites and these RELEVANT questions:-
I) ISLAM & FREEDOM OF BELIEF under http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Islamonline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503548996
II) RECOMMENDED REFERENCE- Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, Senior Lecturer & Islamic Scholar at the Institute of Toronto, Ontario Canada
Islam online.net http://search.virginmedia.com/results/?channel=search&vml=telewest&vmt=&f=0&q=Islam++and+freedom+of+belief+Sheikh+Ahmad+Kutty+Senior+lecturer+at+Islamic+Institute+of+Toronto%2C+Ontario+Canada&cr=&x=27&y=14
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Edited by - kobo on 29 Oct 2007 17:49:09 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 20:40:09
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| Thanks for the post Kobo, but I didn't even read it... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 22:17:34
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meme
Say what? Is that an answer? If that is an answer it is lacking intellectual content? Because you did not provide any argument. Come again.
Let me provide some content from the site you provide with some opinion and argument. Let me do your job.
quote:
Stemming from the idea that contact between the various groups in the population is important for mutual respect and tolerance, it is important to create a geographic mix. However, the probability is high that non-western migrants will end up in a neighbourhood with a large proportion of migrants. After all, they are mainly dependent on rented housing in the social sector, which is clustered in specific neighbourhoods. In any case, spreading the non-western migrant population across the various neighbourhoods is no guarantee for integration. In the same way, the composition of pupils in one in three primary schools in the city does not reflect the population of the district in which the school is situated. We see similar trends in secondary education. One third of children of Dutch origin in secondary school go to schools outside Utrecht, where the schools are generally speaking ’whiter’ and have fewer of the typical city problems such as crime and drugs. The number of children with Turkish (7%) or Moroccan (5%) parents doing this is much lower.
So the issue is not really islam. It is about the failure of dutch government to integrate these people to the society. Due to racism and discrimination -economic and social- these people feel marginalized and can not be integrated. So according to Anna, these people say 'haram haram', not only because of 'islam'. In my opinion it is because of failure of european integration policies for the immigrants.
Or may be you may come up with something like 'these immigrants not smart enough, so that is their problem'.
Meme, next time can you provide better argument, i am kind of bored with the lack of content.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 29 Oct 2007 22:20:21 |
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