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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 16:22:32
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| let it get ugly and messy .that is what life is all about .some people take pleasure in the sadness of others. i thought you have been arround the world for long ,get use to it .if we cannot know the limits of our cherish free speech then we are bound to turn interesting things ugly.prophet muhammad is not a figure for any one to make mockery of .we don't make mockery at any christian figure .for us life is not just for living ,but much more than that.turk listed the wars that created more harvock and mehem than any socall religious war but why is that disregarded and any thing religion is look upon as backward ? why not see the real men in tie and shuit creating wars right infront our eyes .richard baker is just calling for an attack on iran ,did mister decent see any crime in that ? how many people are going to die if f16's and b52's start pounding the cities of iran ? what will be the after matt of the war ? but hey who cares ,they are only iranians .baker was arguing interms of the price of petrol .what a world .yet men of honour that passed away centureis ago are blame buy silly greedy people who wish to be worship by others just beacuse they can't stand religion. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 16:59:32
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Yesterday, shortly after my posting and quite probably Meme's direct appeal to the moderator, this whole subject vanished suddenly and i was happy about it because it was the first time ever that i had the feeling in any debate here on Bantaba that there was no room whatsoever for any reasonability. Now 'DVD' is back. Was it because of Kobo's request?
Anyway, i would like to react to Turk's posting which seems to me a sincere attempt to explain to me what's what. Turk, please understand that i see exactly what you mean: i live in the middle of it, my neighbourhood is full of Moroccan and Turkish immigrant families and the 'radicalisation' gets worse and more frightening by the day. Now we have a curfew and police are everywhere. All this because large groups of young Muslim people who deem themselves 'without a chance' (they're not, they have the same chances other young people have - they can have a good education like everyone else) turn to the 'only' (they feel it like that) thing that they can have to make them different and 'better' (?) from Dutch young people: their religion. One day you see them in jeans, the next day they turn up in a kaftan and they are growing their beard suddenly refusing to shake your hand.
Man, this is a circle we will never be able to get out of if everytime someone asks a question there will be a Muslim who feels his religion is under attack. I'm not talking cartoons, i am talking normal 21st century human behaviour (if there is such a thing) where we should all be able to find pride in who we are and what we have achieved to keep our heads above water in this world. I will keep saying it: religion is a personal thing, and the way in which you worship is your way and it need never become mine but we could still be friends. But if people radicalise and become fanatic, either from frustation as you say or from a minority complex, that is very frightening and destabilizing our society.
If a group of people is abused, like in some cases women in third world countries, yes - i will speak up against it because in most cases it is a more powerful group, men, who are abusing them without ever having the best interest of the women in mind.
We are all equal, but we are allowed to have different views. It should be so, that with these different views we shouldn't harm each other.
Santanfara, whatever happened to you? I am truly sorry to see you so bitter. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 18:19:27
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anna ,i am not the least bitter .thanks for the post.of course i do write and speak against all forms of opperession by whoever.be it third world ,first world or second world. just today i log onto bbc news ,i came accross a young man who urinated on a dieing disable woman in part of britain ,that is wrong.i write and speak against men who committ stupid acts of inhumanity to women ,it is wrong .yet when some feel they can take a fancy at the vilification of muslims ,we are bond to get hurt by that.remember hitory is full such kind of events.''it is only a propaganda ,there is no harm in a some critism ''but before you know it ,the propaganda is a full blown extermination .i love and respect the opinion of others ,but it have a limit.who dare write an article critising the actions of israle in any main stream news paper ? it will not only get unpublish but the writer may have to answer greater issues than ever anticipated. yet where is the free speech ? i have spend a fair time of life in the west ,travel it ,like it and so on.but we need to see things differently .at present ,false stories against islam is a growth market .many have enrol in universities just to study global management (desaster) yet who are the desastser creators? not blair he is now gone.new job titles such as ,security analyst ,middle east analyst .and so on .the sensitivity of muslims is justified.i do not advocate for hate or terrorism .it is against the teachings of islam.
the actions of some people which is link to islam is delibarate.
suiside bombing is haram or forbind .the prophet muhamaad (pbum) said ''indeed ,whoever (intentionally)kills himself,then certainly he will be punished in the fire of hell,wherein he shall dwell forever.''
tolerance in islam
de lacy o'leary wrote in his book 'islam at the cross road' : ''history makes it clear,that the legend of fanatical muslims,sweeping through the world and forcing islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated''.
muslims ruled spain,egpt,syria,lebanon,iran,irag ,morocco,tunisia and all this places have other non-muslims living under muslims rule no problem .in india muslims rule for over 400 hundred years and the population is 80% non-muslims .this are prove that islam is not what some with ulterior motives are making it to be.yes ,in resent times some disenfranchise individual with ideas contrary to islam who hate being dominated by other civilisation decided to design ways to counter that .some of this people call themself with islamic terminolgy ,yet the system they operate is non-islamic and the men in media in the west know that .the financers behind the media know that but to absolve israle of all wrong doings ,it is prerequisite to have some elements among muslims who commit criminal acts in the name of islam.but interesting this people are private individauls not a state .they are groups that come together and disappear .they have their own leadership strcuctures that no muslims elected ,yet the media keep on banging on about islam this and that.similar acts of terror are commiteed by hindus,buhdsih,christians ,do we hear any conotation of their actions to there faith ? NO.SO I AM NOT BITTER.just doing my duty as muslims to clear delibarate misconceptions. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 18:49:18
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PART I
Kay I would try to stay focus exclusively to break this clumpsy material intertwined with SWEEPING STATEMENTS, CONDEMNATION & PROPAGANDA CONCLUSIONS AGAINST ISLAM.
INTRODUCTION:
The approach I want to adopt is to comment on each point, attempting to tackle line by line (gradually) from above material; provide quotations & any relevant references materials gathered through research; A Book about Buddism, The Holy Bible, English translation of the meanings and commentary of THE HOLY QURAN and authors of books & reference materials I privately kept as my AUTHORITATIVE SOURCES. One of them (those who understand The Message of Islam with wealth of researched sources!); I would recommend is MUHAMMAD Uncovering the True story; Author Anita Rai; Publishers Starsighter Ltd. London; which she declares that:"Islam and terrorism; terrorism and Islam; terrorism in Islam; Islamic terrorism; Islam and terror - have been revrberating across the continents for over five years, spurring debate about a Muslim's viewpoint on terror and/or terrorism, the objective of Islam, and without saying its Prophet, Muhammad. Modern media's most usual phere of interests is certainly not to study and dwell on the religion that appeared on the face of human civilisation in 7th century AD in a remote spot of the wild east, Arabia. But following 9/11, 7/2 and other world wide disturbances, one way or the other connected with militant Islam, modern media suddenly find themselves thrust into an unfamiliar whirlpool, making them very uneasy at most times......" inter alias.
Also courtesy of Anita Rai (MUHAMMAD Uncovering The True Story); a powerful preface reads:-"The catastrophe is that for the Muslims the nucleus has shifted from Muhamad to Quran alone. They refuse to acknowledge the Custodian, the Carrier, the Bearer, the Receiver, and the Transmitter of the Quran. The Message is overall for them, and the Messenger, they wish to cast out or push into a corner of oblivion. They have been made to forget that Islam vis-a-vis the Quran centres on the Person and Work of Muhammad. The words of Muhammad that 'Train your children on three things: the love of your Prophet, the love of his Progeny and the recitation of the Quran' are lost upon the Muslims...Muhammad is lost the Muslims. As I say what I say, in this book...I must expressly put the minds of the mullahs at rest. I have no intention either to wrest away the power they have over the unconscious umnah or to affect their lucrative profession, lest fear such a possibility and consider my words as a threat. Nevertheless, if my work disturbs their convenient status quo. I'm afraid I'm not going to apologise for that. What they can never understand is that unlike them I have no obligation to do the right thing...The friendly foe, the internal foe and open foe - all are engaged in the reprehensible task of discrediting a man, the like of whom has not walked upon the earth...I pulled on all my core strengths and my love for this terribly misunderstood man and invoked him...for undeterred courage to conceive, comprehend, express and convey the truth, beneath centuries of covers and quakes, to those who care to know."
More MUHAMMAD Uncovering the True story; Author Anita Rai; Publishers Starsighter Ltd. London on under http://search.virginmedia.com/results/?channel=search&vml=telewest&vmt=&f=0&q=Muhammad+Uncovering+the+true+story+Anita+Rai+Starsighter+Ltd.+London+publishers&cr=&x=14&y=8
RECOMMENDED REFERENCES ON ISLAM & VIOLENCE: (i.e additional useful information can be gathered from following Bantaba World Religion topics culled/ integrated to this DVD topic)
I) The Pope Speech Muslims find irritating under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1819
II) 85 Letters Of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)- PART I. under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2860
III) 85 Letters Of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W).Part II under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2877
IV) The tragedy of Karbala:Lessons for the Muslim Umma under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2870
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Edited by - kobo on 28 Oct 2007 03:46:33 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 22:13:27
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Anna
You don't get it. You may ask question about islam, there is not problem. You may not even like it. I am not sure if anyone stop you asking question about islam or object islam. But This is not critism. This is a systematic attempt, propoganda, provocation with this individual about islam being terrorist. Insult. When ever open his mouth, it is about 'islam and terrorism'. I mean if american fight against British 300 years, it is about freedom fighting. When a palestinian fight against Isreali. It is about islamic terrorism. Or irish fight, it was never about catolism.
I do believe in free speech. But at the same time. I believe in the responsible speech. Here is what I believe, you or these danish guys can insult our prophet. You have the freedom of speech. You will not go to jail for it. As the danish prime minister said, righfully, he can't charge this guy, because he was using the freedom of speech right. No problem. And I do respect that, but as prime minister, he did not condemn the act. He could have said following. Our law allows journalist to write whatever they want in the name of the freedom of speech. However, as a prime minister of denmark, insult to religious figures should be condemned. This is what muslims expected. We did not expect these journalist to put in the jail. We, muslims in denmark, or europe expected, the prime minister of denmark, government figure to condemn the insult. Just like condemn any act against someone questioning jewish holocoust. There is even jail term for it some countries. I mean if you question holocoust, you go jail. We don't even want that. We just wanted some government officials say, what this journalist did is wrong while they have right to do so.
On bantaba, there are several times, you and other non-muslim or secular audience had debate, we usually maintained the civilize unspoken rules about 'agreement on disagreement'. However, this individual is not here for debate. He is here to provoke and insult. I will not tolarate that. I will speak against it. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 02:09:54
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Turk and others please forget about how crude these commentaries are! They are PROPAGANDA & TOTAL CONDEMNATION OF ISLAM but we can provide the ANSWERS (which I would try to tackle to the best of my ability) on some MIS-CONCEPTIONS. Lets clear their doubts on one of the world's greatest religion, educate them about Islam as a religion of PEACE, lifestyle and teachings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad and The Holy Quran.
Thats the CHALLENGE for all MUSLIMS, to uncover the TRUTH about ISLAM as a religion of PEACE, its beauty and GLORY!
PEACE!  |
Edited by - kobo on 28 Oct 2007 03:53:10 |
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Galo Sowe
Sweden
116 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 01:22:38
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Whilst the current massive propaganda goes on against Islam, it still remains the fastest growing religion in Europe. At the end truth is always stronger than a lie.
The action of a few misguided souls should not be termed as being representative of this great religion.
The merciful and nobel Prophet (Sallalaho alaihe wasalam) said: “Even if these people do not accept Islam, I do hope from Allah that there will be persons from among their progeny who would worship Allah and serve his cause.”
Behold the conduct of our noble Prophet (S.A.W), whom we profess to follow! We get so much irritated over little trouble or a mere abuse from somebody that we keep on torturing and taking our revenge throughout our lives in every possible manner. Does it become people who claim to follow the magnanimous Prophet (S.A.W)? Look, even after so much suffering at the hands of the Taif mob, he neither curses them nor does he work for any revenge, even when he has the full opportunity to do so. (Stories of the Sahaba)
Remember what happened to the tribe of Quraish? They fought Islam until all of them converted without knowing.
Despite the fact that the Quraish knew that the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) was extremely noble, truthful, honest, charitable and truth-worthy person, they treated him with contempt, malice and animosity, when he declared that he was Prophet of Allah. Day by day their attitude grew more and more hostile and bitter. When there was little hope of their listening to the voice of reason, the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) went to Taif to preach Islam there. But unfortunately the people of Taif proved to be more callous, unreasonable and tyrannical.
In the city there lived wealthy and highly influential people. The Holy Prophet went to the three brothers named Abd ya lail, Mas'ood, and Habeeb, who belonged to the Omair tribe, which was the chief of all other tribes and invited them to accept Islam. What the three said was derogatory and humiliating to the extreme. One of them said, "If Allah has sent you as a Prophet, you are tearing the cover of Ka'ba". The second said, "Did not Allah get somebody else for prophethood except you?" The third said. "I cannot talk to you. If you are true, it would be discourteous to talk to you. If you are a liar, you do not deserve to be talked to."'
Not content with this insulting behaviour, they roused the street urchins and rogues of Taif, to jeer and make fun of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). The result was that the rascals stood in line on both sides of the way. When the Holy prophet (S.A.W.) went that way, they pelted stones and rocks on him, till his shoes were smeared with blood. When due to blows and wounds, his strength gave way, he sat down; but the callous miscreants held him by the arms and made him stand up. When he would begin walking again they abuse him and clapped their hands. The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) at last took refuge in a vineyard.
The Prophets (A.S.) were generally subjected to such injuries and insults. Some of them prayed for Allah's curse. Prophet Nooh's (A.S.) curse resulted in the destruction of a big part of earth, by the Deluge. But the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) was sent for the good and benefit of the world, he could not even think of such a curse. His companion on the journey, Zaid (R.A.A.) requested him to invoke the curse of Allah on such a bad lot of people, but the Holy Prophet got piqued and said, "Never! I have been sent as a blessing for the world". Thereafter he prayed, "oh Allah! Give guidance to my people and give them a sense to differentiate between good and bad." But the moral and physical pain which he under-went can be easily gauged by the answer of the Holy Prophet to the query of Aisha (R.A.) as to which was the hardest day of his life. He (S.A.W.) referred to that day in Taif.” |
"Soldiers are experts at camouflage but that is on the battle field not the political one, were transparency is the watch word" Kaaniba |
Edited by - Galo Sowe on 28 Oct 2007 01:28:39 |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 03:24:19
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Its getting 3.00 o'clock and i defiantly don't want mix up here again but i cant sleep with this negative commentary's.
Anna (& Co.)you cant play here a justice mister of the Bantab.
When did your intervention comes up ? it was when we/i as Muslim- suicide, was trying to blow up Kay.But who drops oil in fire most know that it will not stay in that stage!
Yes my understanding to it is that you &co. not just are disbelievers(some'?)also total uncomforted with us and that still doesn't make us out of our topic exchanging.
But when one comes with a such king of blessless ...we have no other choice but to play the game with him/her.
What we understand under all this talking of frustration is nothing but the scaring of the different comment of your world that dont comes in Islam and you may will miss it, but much more worst is that even your next neighbors could turn to be a Muslim and Cary something strangers under his/hers Kaftan's .
All this commentary that some of you are point here is not a new and are not from Islam neither from Muslim country's but very heart of here, and even if is from other side of planet it root starts from nowhere but here, the very center of the so called people with democracy and tolerance's.
(some)people being feeding here with all as insures stories toward Islam while knew it doesn't bring us forward tolerance but creating a great danger by both side just because their after they daily bread or that they will sink deeply in as they're seen ``PEOPLE COMING TO OUR DINA DAY BY DAY``, but none can prevent it!.
As those rootless names that has being mention here, they are all from here or they plant it some where as a ticking time bomb. Its their endless plants which do not need a respective season to live in. it grow and grow through all the seasons. Well since we knew these all, What then will make us took them seriously through they words
?, NOTHING!
That's why we asked justice for all and not only self profits,I means even including in this Bantaba.
Waslam. |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 10:39:13
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Mbay, i hope you had a good sleep after delivering your message! Good that you had an extra hour this weekend! I don't want to be minister of Justice - it's just that the intolerance towards people who have a different belief or other convictions and the vehemence with which you (& Co.) are defending your ground, is frightening to me. Not only here on Bantaba, but in my daily life among my students. Since this world of ours has become a global village, people of all kinds of convictions have to learn to live together peacefully.
Have a peaceful Sunday! |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 11:58:37
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| Well said Anna, "Peace in this global village" I like it how about that for your signature? |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 13:21:12
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Peace in this global village
anna |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 19:25:11
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Anna be honest pls.
you means we have to site down while one/some are not just spiting at us 1-2-3* but countless?
what i dont understand is that why you are playing only one side judge. intolerance is not the right word and different opinion is the case we are asking /fighting for, what we are here for is the respect for one another and that is what is missing here.
We being crying for so long about respect for our holy side but who take it serious ? instead is the continually of rudeness,and now still talking about respect and tolerance /free of opinion?, i just don't get.
the vehemence with which you (& Co.) are defending your ground, is frightening to me. Not only here on Bantaba,
well that all have reasons and i don't think one will simple hate you cos you have a other minds as him.
Let me tell you story of a student that was in his apprenticeship from me at our company, every things was wonderful beauteous but then the day he shows me with my colleague praying in my office then every with me was suddenly bad, explaining it to the parents was not long and them took no minutes of time to forward their solicitudes to our chief by changing him to other areas . but i was very contents with the answer to them from the chief,I wish all could be as him.
so dont you see this and that are all from their homes without knowing notihnig about us simple hating ?
i means what a world we are living?, right/tolerance/ opinion /freedom on and on? That is a fairish curious.
Again the mistakes is situated from some where Else pls accept it!
Oh tank you I had a quite good sleep |
Edited by - mbay on 28 Oct 2007 20:10:29 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 19:46:21
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| I defintely want to sit back away from this topic for now and focus on other things, but i must honestly say that the amount of contempt,intolerance and toxicity of the posts by Turk, Mbay, and Kobo (I leave out Santafara this time because he seems to have chilled out a bit) is not helping the image of Islam at all. If you have to be a great advocate of Islam, you need to clearly distance yourself from terrorists and condemn Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda in unequivocal terms unstead of tacitly endorsing them. To consider every criticism of Islam as PROVOCATION is to suggest you have a VIOLENT nature. Can't you take criticsm in good faith? |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 20:39:20
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Why do i most because of you? and even if i do will that help you reduce your dinky commentary?
I dont care if you took me in under the commandos of Bin laden or an terrorist organizations cose i know who i am as i said i dont mind my personaly attacs, but attaching my relegion with your foolishness i will not ignored it and you will get your retaliation at any time with out being arguable!.
Are you not playing here again your nasty game for calling us by NAME as a terrorist while your Co. siting again and enjoying it? i dont want to hear them with that empty talks again and i dont know who will come with it once more. |
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