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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 14:13:16
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gambiabev
quote:
My advice to any young man or women in Gambia would be to get a skill or trade and start your own business. Start VERY small and build it up.
My advice to the government is that for any business to survive you need a reliable electricity supply and trained, reliable, honest workers.
hmmm. How are they going to get a skill? How much is the university fee and how much is the annual salary in UK. A gambian professional would have to work 2 years without eating to go school. Unlike UK government, gambian government does not have any training programs. So forget about skill. Own business. Where is the capital. Most important where is the consumers who would spend money. All I see from gambian youth to lose all the hope and try to supply a services to the richest consumers, tourists. Electricity? Well, it is still difficult. Gambia has low attitude so it is very expensive to build a hydro-electrical central. What is the alternative. Oil, coal. too expensive. Gambia can't even build a basic bridge between 2 sides of rivers. No capital. The tourism industry. Mostly european owners make killing.
Charge western prices. Pay fraction for labour. What is the benefit for tourism. Most tourism money goes to hotel cash. Very small percentage go to ordinary people like workers, small business, taxi drivers, prostitutes, bumpsters. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 14:41:11
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The slave trade explains the past and the present. It doesnt have to be the future too. FORWARD looking is the key to any sucess.
Of course there are many real barriers and also many excuses.
A small business could be to buy ice each day in bulk at the market and then resell it to the villagers.
Or doing hair braiding and charge people a small fee.
Or ............. If people have an enterprising spirit it is suprising what ways you can make some money and provide for your family.
Most people in the West are not totally consumerist. They simple want to have a nice quality of life and provide for their children. I think that is human nature.
Turk how would you explain the difference between Gambia and some other Muslim countries then? Is it climate? Political will? Historical factors? Something uniquely African?
Turk, just for the record I dont have cable TV. I live in the UK and rely on the BBC news. All news is biased in some ways and I take that into account when I watch. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 15:05:53
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bev. I was being sarcastic about slavery. anyway. To answer your question. There is no single reason. I guess combination of many factors. In my personal opinions.
Historical: The colonization and its effects today is main reason. You can't be a nation in short time. For example, Turks one of the most successful muslim state have a long tradition of nation identity. Since Attilla times, Genghis Khan, Seljuk and Ottoman empire, it has the experience of nation building. These will be pass from the generation to generation by DNA. Gambia does not have the same advantage.
JeoPolitic: Gambia does not have any geo-political value. It is not close to economic market. For example Turks are situated one of the most important region. Close to consumers, europeans. Bridge beetween Central asian oil/natural gas, middleeastern oil. Former key ally against russian empire. Both democratic and secular. Gambia does not have these. For example one of the reason malaysia sucess is being close to fastest economic and biggest population area in the world. Gambia does not have a market access.
Natural Resources: Unlike some arabic states, gambia does not have any significant natural resources. There is nothing to get some capital invesment to turn things around.
And those who have the gold rules, those you rules get the golds. So lack of economic resources cause uneducated/unskilled population who can't produce wealth.
I may be sounding very pessimistic but there are somethings Gambian use as strenghts.
Religion: I think Religion is actually strenght of gambia. I been to many countries, I think gambians are good muslim. Not much fanatism like arabs.
Peace: Without major conflict, gambia can be centre of stability in the region.
People: Gambians are great people. they have nice social skills, family structure and hard working people. Especially, gambian women are the biggest strenght of gambia.
River & Climate: The gift of Allah-u Talu.
I think Gambia should focus on following economic activities
Service Industry.
Agriculture. especially organic.
Fishing.
Bed and Breakfast tourism. Midsize hotel tourism.
Volunteerism, eco-cultural tourism.
For the record. I have witness a few times, you sounded critical on islam with stereotypical points. I came to conclusion that you sound like typical western media. If you give more example and relate your personal experience and your take on islam, i may have more objective about you.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 16:10:34
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Kay You would realised that I focused on the most dangerous part of the world and forgot to mentioned Africa. My brief comments on Africa is they were raped and still being looted by super powers and more advanced countries. Lately China is exploiting Africa on raw materials in its boom and economy. There are many on-going conflicts, poverty and deprivations that retards the continent. Lack of common strategy, solidarity deters AU to face challenges of modernisation, globalisation, trade and competition. There are lots of dictators and dirty politics. Latest information culled from Allafrica,com Gambia: Global Unification Holds Symposium On African Unity under http://allafrica.com/stories/200708310619.html
Follow the current highlights of world politics in the news. As Bob Marley sang!
''War in East! War in the West! Everywhere there is War! War! War! Rumours of War!
STOP THE WAR!
Peace! |
Edited by - kobo on 31 Aug 2007 16:43:38 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 17:58:16
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Turk, you last posting was very interesting and considered. I think we agree on alot of points.
Gambians are indeed moderate Muslims and a peaceful friendly nation.
I am not anto Muslim, but in a sense anti all religions. I am a spiritual and philosophical person, but I do get annoyed when people pray to their God of choice and then sit back and wait. In general I believe in being proactive in your own life, making things happen. Don't wait for Allah or fate or whatever.
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kisley
United Kingdom
214 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 19:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
quote:
In Gambia I feel that the Muslim religious attitude that 'Allah will provide' and the fatalism that brings is really holding people back.
Stereotype. Too much Fox, CNN, SKY? Contrary, allah orders to work and work is taken as "worship". May I add, contrary to 'western attitude', muslims are not obsession for consumer. To say Religion is the reason for Gambia not advancing is ridiculous. What about the economic success of malaysia, indonesia, turkey?
How about the suggestion that gambia should follow the brits to advance economically. Colonize lands, involve slave trade, kill thousands of the indegenous of a continent, take the land and send their surplus labour to those places. That may help to overcome their islamic flaws.
Actually turk I am very proud to be British, my grandfather and his brother died fighting in the second world war and are buried in France. (my grandfather was 36 years old) They got off their asses and actually DID SOMETHING, instead of sitting on a forum spouting the usual rhetoric.
You all use fine words and gallant speeches, but to put it bluntly fine words mean "jack ****". Ok we did terrible things, but we have also done a helluva lot of good things as well. Its colonialism this, slavery that..whats with this "victim mentality"???? You think you were the only people who have suffered. My ancestors were all miners/shipbuilders from deprived working class areas, we were treated terribly by our own government. In 1936 my grandfather and a group of men (200) and a dog  decided to march to London (451 K)..it took them a month to get there, hopefully to draw attention to the mass unemployment and poverty that existed in their area. On the way people fed them and supplied them with boots. Public meetings had been held at every town along the way at which the marchers spoke about the terrible poverty that existed in "Jarrow", .(unemployment was 75 percent..there was no welfare state) Despite the public and media sympathy , the government refused to see them. However after the war there would be a landslide victory for the labour party.
My grandfather would eventually get a job fighting in the 2nd world war...and pay the biggest price.
As one of the marchers rightly said “We should remember that every change that has been made in political and social history has been made as a result of direct action.”
Would you like to hear about the Tolpuddle martyrs?
Thats my rant over. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 23:16:27
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Kisley
That is OK to proud to be british if you are british. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic and proud. However, many of the third world not proud that you are british, they actually do not even care. So you Gfather died fighting in the second world war. So did my grandfather fighting in the first world war againts british army. In my land. Not yours. Does it may my grandfather great too? But what is the your point. We are not discussing here about soldiers like your grandfather or my grandfathers death for their country. But please tell me how about like your grandfather, the soldiers death to defend their country against british occupiers. How about the generation of african-americans who were sold/bought by brits. How about, huge continent of north america todays has only a few million native americans. Where did they go? In fact, I am not even angry with most american soldiers in iraq. The issue is international politics. Imperialism. My questioning was the responsibility of brits for the native american holocous, slaver and colonization and its impact on today's generation. And many third world country did not do these to get wealth.
You did good things for yourself. What good things you did for the third world. Please tell me. Give me example. You are suffered too. Who cares. You were suffered by your own government. British government. Domestic problem. Third world suffered by your government. That is completely different. I mean your internal politics, pain is really from your government, the government you elect, the government you take the power. India did not elect your government. DId not have chance to take your government away. See the difference.
I respect what your grandfather done for your country. That is commendable. But I do not respect what british empire done it. I will continue same critical attitude for even my own country.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 23:33:06
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bev
It is great to see we have some agreement.
I do not expect you should be into muslims. But I am not sure it is wise to be anti-religion. There are many samples in all religion including islam bad things, radicalism, wrong stuff. The important thing is being spiritual. There are several stereotype against islam in the western world. Contrary what you say, Allah tell us to be hard working. I mean many western countries, especially in London England, i know many muslims are very hardworking. They don't go party, or pub, or sports bar. They are really working very hard. Your experience in gambia may be different. I mean unemployment is more than 60 % for gambian youths. Where are they going to work?
You are absolutely right. You need to proactive and make things happen. But gambians do not have much opportunity to act on it. But when I was staying with my wife family, typical day, gambians
- Carry water to do dishes, laundry and take shower. Not just turn the water pipe like England. No dishwasher, laundry.
- Get clean the ashes than get the charcoal for cooking. Not just push the button. No stove.
When I was just sitting there I was always thinking 'oh god, these guys are the hardest working people I ever seen. My observation is contrary to you actually these muslims are working so hard but still appreciates what god provides. That is commandable. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 31 Aug 2007 23:35:08 |
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kisley
United Kingdom
214 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 00:26:08
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My grandfather was not just fighting for my country, we could have quite easily stayed neutral. Hitler infact wanted to make an alliance with us. Seems like some people like to forget that, and if it wasnt for the likes of my grandfather you wouldnt be sitting here criticisng anyone.
its getting late here but can you pls read this link about slavery and tell me your opinion
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/slavetra.html
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/slavetra.html |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 01:09:48
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| Why can't I critisize if hitler won. One way or another still imperialist is imperialist. If Hitler has won, there may not have been Stalin. Or there may not have been Cold war? Many british colonies may have got independents earlier. UK or USA would not have been in middleeast. You did not really give me any credible evidence of how great brits are for third world. Try harder. we are still unsatisfied how great, nice and generous british empire to us. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 01 Sep 2007 01:11:52 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 01:17:37
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| I read the article which was great. I really appreciate how europeans actually are accused falsely about slavery, native american holocoust and colonization. I was convinced that whatever I learnt was false. I will unlearn everything. Please accept my apology for accusing europeans for these actions. The article change my life and how I am thinking. Great. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 09:27:44
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History help us understand how far we have gone with development of mankind under different eras and ages ago. It helps us realised how to tackle our challenges better as they are not new to us. Its been there and being revolutionarised or re-cycled over and over again. Examples are race, tribes, empires, kingdoms, various types of government, colonisation, imperialism, religion, exploitation, slavery, poverty and war are typical examples and any experience gave us new methods and approaches inorder master how to tackle them; reform ourselves, values, for use of scarce resources, economical and technological advancement. When the Americans were lobbying war aginst Iraq and other so-called axis of evil (in Bush terms!), there were anti-war campaigns worldwide and peace efforts because of menace of wars; especially world wars and effects of the global scale.
Kisley, I do understand and appreciate your viewpoints but no want is pointing accusing fingers at anybody. Its inspiring to learn from politcal heroes, heroic movements and activies that succeeded in their struggles. However we are trying to review political history, political ideologies, politcal leaderships, policies of domination & exploitation and nature of present world order and its impact on mankind (i.e WORLD SECURITY & PEACE!). Those global challenges are the wars, mis-rule (democracy, good governance, double standards at UN, American domination, world policing, etc!), poverty, environmental destructiion and hazards etc . Slavery, exploitations and other traumas are part of the experiences and tragedies that transformed mankind through various stages of civilization.
Therefore we need WORLD PEACE & SECURITY to preserve our strides in civilization and technological developments to improve livelihood, health, production, communication, trade, ditribution of resources, eradicate poverty, control death (civil casualties caused by wars) and maintain a good environment. Also there is a lot to be done to bring about the full integration (GLOBAL & REGIONAL) in the areas of free movement of persons, goods and services. |
Edited by - kobo on 01 Sep 2007 11:19:58 |
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twinkly
United Kingdom
190 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 10:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by kisley
Actually turk I am very proud to be British, my grandfather and his brother died fighting in the second world war and are buried in France. (my grandfather was 36 years old) They got off their asses and actually DID SOMETHING, instead of sitting on a forum spouting the usual rhetoric.
How about all the men who were FORCED by your government to help the British in WW2? Do you really think Westafricans wanted to help in this war?
No they were just taken, yet again.
They took them to be on the front without giving them accurate training.No choice!!!!!
And do you think those who survived got any recognition by your government?
No just throw them back, they don't need pension or pay
Hmm I wonder if their grandchildren are as proud of their grandparents as you are of yours
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Edited by - twinkly on 01 Sep 2007 11:22:39 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 11:05:55
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Turk, yes I agree on the domestic front the women in Gambia have things much harder than in the UK. The domestic work is very physical. It is also relentless and dare I say boring? I love a day in the village with my Gambian friends, but day after day week after week, year after year I would find it boring. The pace is so much slower than in the UK, which is good up to a point, but perhaps there is a happy medium somewhere between Uk time and Gambian time! 
I suppose the 'work' I was referring to is the capitalist view of work. That is work done outside of the home for an income. I enjoy going to work. I enjoy having a role outside of the domestic role. I could be very happy in a Gambian village if I worked, say in Brikama as a teacher, but not if I was in the compound all day every day.
Unempoyment is very high and that must eventually destroy peoples hope of a job. I think this is when the role of small scale self employed projects is very important. Even if you do little jobs in the village and people pay in the barter way rather than money. You might build someone a wall, he might make your children some clothes and so on......... Some people might be able to pay a little and the word goes round the local villages that you are a good work. Who knows what comes from that? From acorns grows an oak tree. |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 11:23:57
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This topic is a broad topic in terms of global picture and scenarious! Its noy about Gambia, British or Americans but its about jey players of world domination
Where are certain threads and discussions leading us into |
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