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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 14:51:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Santanfara
Samory Toure "Black Napoleon of the Sudan" (1830-1900)
Samory Toure, who was a conqueror from West Africa,............
......culled from africa within
this history is inaccurate in some way. keme buruma wasn't king who captured samory. according to realiable narrations, keme buruma was samory's brother and commander who is task with attacking strong garrisons. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 10:46:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Santanfara
............ the son of a poor Black merchant and a Senegalese female slave.
......... His mother was captured during this raid. .
thats exactly what happened.She was not a slave. inter state wars were common then. His mother was captured long after he was born.prisoner of war would be the modern explanation/understanding of her status.
Santanfara, Samory's brother was called Keme Burama, Sori Burama was somebody else.
Do you also know that Samory, grandchild became the first President of Guinea Conakry, Sekou Toure. Its an interesting lineage, same surname but the link is through Samory's daughter Ramata.
here is a link to the NY Times article of his capture in 1898.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A02E5D7143CE433A25750C1A9669D94699ED7CF&oref=slogin
Most pictures you see about him was during his capture in St. Louis, Ndarr.
Janyanfara. Ofcourse Manding didnt start without Sunjata, but without him no body would probably be talking about the Mali Empire today.
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Edited by - njucks on 23 Jul 2008 10:50:04 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 16:23:06
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| very good observation njucks. i mix sory burema with keme burema. both names are mandingonise ebrahim. the article is interesting too. so sekou was related to samory, i never know that as a fact. i listen to the song sang by bembeya jazz about samory and his line of linage and also the song about keme burema. keme burema was never captured but disppeared after a certain battle. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 16:44:47
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The first great Sahelian kingdom was Ghana, but the Islamic revolution of the Almoravids, a Berber people living north of Ghana, splintered that kingdom. The Almoravids did not succeed in building their own, Islamic kingdom in the region. The Almoravid revolution, however, led to energetic Islamic proselytizing all throughout the Sahel. Many of the ruling families converted to Islam.
One of these ruling families, the Keita, forged the successor to the Ghanaian kingdom, the kingdom of Mali. As with Ghana, Mali was built off of the monopolization of the trade routes from western and southern Africa to eastern and northern Africa. The most lucrative of these monopolies was the gold trade. The bulk of the gold trade proceeded up the Niger river, so this gave Mali a firmer grip on this lucrative monopoly. Mali was not a true empire, but rather the center of a sphere of influence.
The historical founder of Mali was the magician, Sundjata, one of the most legendary figures in African history. Sundjata, who ruled Mali from 1230-1255, began as a royal slave and magician among the Soso who had inherited the Ghanaian empire. Sundjata seized the major territories through which gold was traded and so built the foundation off of which Mali would be built. He also introduced into the region the cultivation and weaving of cotton.
Yes the most significant of the Mali kings was Mansa Musa (1312-1337) who expanded Mali influence over the large Niger city-states of Timbuctu, Gao, and Djenné. The Mansa (a devout Muslim) who built magnificent mosques all throughout the Mali sphere of influence; his gold-laden pilgrimage to Mecca made him an historical figure even in European history writing.
It was under Mansa that Timbuctu became one of the major cultural centers not only of Africa but of the entire world. Under Mansa Musa's patronage, vast libraries were built and madrasas (Islamic universities) were endowed; Timbuctu became a meeting-place of the finest poets, scholars, and artists of Africa and the Middle East. Even after the power of Mali declined, Timbuctu remained the major Islamic center of sub-Saharan Africa, before kawkaw(Gao) .
After the death of Mansa Musa, the power of Mali began to decline. Mali had never been an empire proper, and subject states began to break off from the Mali sphere of influence. In 1430, the Tuareg Berbers in the north seized much of Mali's territory, including the city of Timbuctu, and the Mossi kingdom to the south a decade later seized much of Mali's southern territories. Finally, the kingdom of Gao, which had been subjugated to Mali under Mansa Musa, gave rise to a Songhay kingdom that finally eclipsed the magnificent power of Mali.
Then comes Mossi diara keh, Da Kaba.(The Ngolo) an Bambara king from there on another trouble starts with Macina nation, a great fulani tribes like Shehu Ahmadu (Lobbo) 1775-1844, a Qadiri Fulani Muslim leader in western Africa, overthrew the ruling Fulani dynasty of the Macina region and created a new theocratic state with its capital at Hamdallahi. Ahmadu was probably influenced by the teachings of the Islamic reformer Usman dan Fodio and his jihad. The circumstances in which Ahmadu's own movement was born were very similar to those that had occasioned the jihad in Hausaland. Initially, Ahmadu established an independent Muslim community were he gave expression to his fundamentalist Islamic views and he preached in favor of a jihad of his own. Ahmadu's views brought him into conflict with his local, pagan Fulani chief, who was unwise enough to call for help from his suzerain, the Bambara king of Segu (ruled by Da Kaba, grandson of Ngolo Diara). The result was a general rising under Ahmadu that established a theocratic Muslim Fulani state throughout Macina and extended to both the ancient Muslim centers of Jenne, where he had the great mosque destroyed because it offended his fundamentalist beliefs, and Timbuktu. Ahmadu's holy war was probably continuous from 1810 through 1818, however, some sources suggest two events one in 1810 and one in 1818. One estimate suggests a total of 10,000 deaths resulting from this jihad. There is also reference to Ahmadu's jihad as a " Tukulor War." The rule of Ahmadu's family continued under his successors, Ahmadu II and Ahmadu III, until the latter was defeated by al-Hajj 'Umar in 1862.
(to be continue) this time will be between Mossi Diara keh (Da mossi and youg brave massina boy called (Arrdo) yerrow -slamakah.geretohgouli kampehjo.
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 10:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by mbay
The first great Sahelian kingdom was Ghana, ..........
......... Mali was not a true empire, but rather the center of a sphere of influence.
............. Sundjata, who ruled Mali from 1230-1255, began as a royal slave .........
............ Mali had never been an empire proper????
good posting Mbay. but we need to clarify and ask few questions.
the name of the Empire was actually Wagadu, it the title rulers that was Ghana. like Mansa, HRH etc. however in Wollof, Mauritania is called Ghanarr, which was where the empire was located.
Sunjata wasnt a slave. never has been and i think like Santanfara there is a misunderstanding here. Manding/Kangaba where he lived was under the Susu leadership. Tha ruling family's surname was actually Konateh, which was his father's surname too. Keita must have surfaced later on.
now why was Mali not an Empire but Centre of influence? |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 13:21:35
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| you are right njucks. mali was an empire in its finest sense.also keita wasn't a surname at the bigging but appeared later. keita meant inheritor in mandingo. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 13:40:35
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Njucks Ghanarr in wolof means NORTH. Hence Narr Ghanarr an Arab from North A.frica. The rest are PENGKU = EAST, HARRFU = SOUTH and SOWJANTA = WEST.
In Fula is FUUN NANGEH = EAST, HEERR NANGEH = WEST , REHWOO = NORTH and WORRGO = SOUTH |
madiss |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 10:30:03
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As i said Mali had never been an empire properly. one understands the efforts of a state to expand its influence since other countries or peoples. This power extension politics can be expressed among other things in population-political, nationalistic and economic way but in the case of Mali i have it different. Catchword, Kingship (too many monopolization from all the four zones)
And i have a another collection about his slavery. in that time Soso wasn't easy for the other tribes. and remebers Dakadjalan Sundjata’s birthplace was strictly ruled by the Soso from tribes of Soumaworo Jarrasso.
And why was he (Soundjata)seven-year self exile.?
But as usual the world has aways a different views on almost everything because of different narration.
Q. who are SUSU and SOSO?
So let keep the sprite. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 14:13:21
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quote:
Originally posted by MADIBA
Njucks Ghanarr in wolof means NORTH. Hence Narr Ghanarr an Arab from North A.frica. The rest are PENGKU = EAST, HARRFU = SOUTH and SOWJANTA = WEST.
In Fula is FUUN NANGEH = EAST, HEERR NANGEH = WEST , REHWOO = NORTH and WORRGO = SOUTH
Thanks Madiba.one learns a lot from this bantaba. i have never heard of harfu before. i have always thought pengku only had a religious meaning.
Mbay,
i cannot anwer your questions but i think the form of government in Mali was one of loyalty to a central point/figure. later on we saw the same from Kaabu. loose states being more or less independently run but paying tax and loyalty to the centre.
also the Sundiata epic is very consistent, no matter where it is told, be it in guinea,bissau, the gambia, mali etc. he only went on exile to save his own life due to rivalry from other siblings, as he had a cripplying disease. you can call it discrimination to understand it in today's thinking.
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 19:19:22
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originally posted by Santanfara
i forgot to ask this question, tamsier, many cultural aspects we attribute to wollofs are later found out to be serere, so what is unique to wollofs then which is has nothing to do with serere? i wa reading the allaince between lat dyor and maba. was he wollof lat dyor?
Santanfara,
sorry for responding to your question late - I've been away.
It is not a surprise that many cultural aspects associated with wolof actually derrive from serere culture considering the ancient ties between the two tribes [just as the ancient ties between serere and fula]. The biggest advantage wolof has over serere is its ability to [a greater extend]borrow from other cultures and fused it within its own culture - hence its cultural dominance, hence more books are written in wolof and about the wolof people etc. In the Gambia, even the mandinka language has influenced the wolof language [of the gambia] - perhaps not surprising considering the fact that, the mandinka make up the majority tribe in the gambia. That does not necessarily mean the wolof lack culture. I give two well known examples:
The international aclaimed dish - Bena chin [Jolof rice], named after the kingdom it originated from.
The rigid social stratification found in the wolof culture that you do not find in serere [whom by the way borrowed many of theirs from the wolof].
As regards to your question about Damel Lat Jor Jobe, on just the paternal line, he is serere, even his middle name 'Jor' is serere, but there's more to that. Things are not as straight forward now as they used to be. There are other factors to consider:
1. He ruled wolof kingdoms {kajoor and also bawol], therefore, it would make sense to identify with the wolof and infact, many people refer to him as the wolof king. This brings me to another point - how you see yourself. I know lots of people who actually have fula/serere surnames but see themselves as wolof - especially those who can't speak a word of fula or serere but have always spoken wolof at home and in society [again because of wolof's dominance].
2.Perhaps linked to the above, his grad mother [mam sokhna mbaye] was wolof - [a wolof geweel]. His mother [Ngoneh Latir Faal] was also wolof born and breed. They all grew up in a wolof society [including his father - Sakewarr] and hence it is no surprise one would idenfity him as a wolof. But on his paternal line, both his surname and middle name are serere. There are also people with the surname Jobe who would term themselves as Lebou, Njie who would term themselves wolof etc - it all depends on cultural influence of your parents.
I hope this answer your question. Interesting postings so far.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 20:19:57
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Janyanfara,
You are so right. Manding history started long before Sunjata and his contemporates. The reason why Sunjata and his contemporates are used as a base for manding history is because more is written by the Arabs on that era - thanks to the Malian empire and the spectacular pilgrimage of Mansa Musa in 1324. As you rightly noted, before the malian empire, each kingdom was ruled by the Mandinka noble clans of Konateh, Trawally, etc -, long before Sumanguro's grand father even founded the rebellious Diriasso Dynasty of Sosso[more than 40 years after the fall of the Ghanian Empire]. The area of old Malel [the ancient name of Mali], has long been in existence and ruled by these warrior clans. The mysterious women you as you called them: balaba tinkida etc, were Nyanthios [from the maternal blood of princess Tanemba]. I too share your frustration [if i could call it that], when people use this era as the begining of Manding history.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 25 Jul 2008 20:25:33 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2008 : 19:05:10
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that is good enough explanation tamsier. thanks. as i said, i had a fana fana side to me which i am trying to dig up. so if every wolof's take many of there cultures from serere, that make us want to know, when did the wolof language came about. many mandinka meaning surnames are infact now in wolof as well. Janneh, Touray, Ceesay,etc . there is a need to identify when this interchanging of tribes took place. and i will also want to know the relationship between fulas and serere. can you also write some serere words. i will try to see if i hear those words in use.
thanks tamsier. i hope madis is reading so that if tamsier want to take the fulas for a ride ,he can intervane. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 17:15:12
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Asking me when the wolof language first came about is just like asking me when the wolof people started to call themselves wolofs or the beginings of the wolof tribe or the beginnings of any tribe for that matter. I do not know the answer to that. The best answer I can give based on scientific evidence is millenniums after the early humans, when people started to organise themselves socially into - clans and tribes for political, social and religious reasons.
Now to answer your other question, regarding the 'interchanging/interbreeding of tribes', that 'could' be traced back to two major events in West African history.
1. West African climatic change [Sahara] - more than 3000 BC, when peole moved around for more fatile land and better habitat.
2. The old Empire of Ghana -, when African princes and kings used to lined the court of The Ghana [Emperor/king] to pledge alligence and married off their daughters and sisters among themselves in order to form political ties. The Malian Empire and the Jolof Empire which came later also played their part. A good example is: the relatives of Sunjata Keita who conquered Gabou [modern day Guinea Bissau] and interbreeded with the noble locals, who would later move on to the Serere kingdoms and interbreeded with the Serere lamans [kings] that gave us the Gelwar dynasty of sine and saloum, who also interbreeded with the wolof royal families and the cycle goes on and on and on. Their decendants are whom you see today.
The relationship between Serere - Fula/Tukuloor can be accurately traced back to the Kingdom of Tekrur where they lived side by side and co-habited. This was before the last serere exodus [from 1035 AD] when they were defeated by the Tukuloor/Fula and their Almoravid allies after they refused conversion to islam. I've already posted this elsewhere, and there is no point repeating myself here.
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Dali Mindis, mayaa foo yiv,
o yal oha he foo vo,
vo barkeh nu rev veh fop,
to bi o fud of Takar, Thiorak a barkeh.
Mindis fa tidu faneh, yah Roog,
hidani in, in bakakad, veh, ndiki fo na
vahtu fa ngon in.
Roog ah fa ha. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2008 : 00:00:19
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| thanks tasmier, the first question was a trap which you spoted eloquently. there use to be a myth that wolof language is a combination of many local languages in the old kingdoms. this myths may have die out now but i use to hear it a lot. so my question was just to see if you have heard of such stories. truely i never heard of the serere words you wrote. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2008 : 12:36:10
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Well, there is no doubt that the Wolof language has been influenced by many other languages over the years - but pure wolof is still spoken in certain villages of senegal. I've heard of the myth you referred to, but found no evidence to substantiate that claim - i.e. what the claim is trying to imply.
The above is a Serere prayer. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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