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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
 Posted - 25 May 2007 : 16:48:37
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Serenata Says:
"I think the problem with Hitler was just the fact that he thought to have a vision... [b]We see from the Nazi era that the wrong vision can be more desastrous than no vision"
BornAfrican:
Hey Serenata, i must first say hi. haven't met u at the bantaba for a while. hope u cool.
With regards to Hitler, i think it is his ideology that strikes people first and they pass judgement. i don't agree with Hitler's ideology and no matter how evil it was, its bottom line was to create a society that will be the all powerful. This might sound selfish, barbaric or what ever adjective you may want to use to describe it, but it was still a vision. it was an ideology conceived, midwifed and delivered by an evil mistake called Charles Darwin, but here i am not to dwell on monster Darwin and we shall talk about another time.
The founding fathers of the modern day capitalist America had a vision to create a super power state. A state that will rule and dictate the rest of the world. Today, this "super power" state of America is a reality and they are going around dropping bombs on weaker nations whose wealth they need. What is the difference between the Nazi ideology and this "super pure" capitalist ideology? To me, there ain't no difference. They all preach the same thing: "one nation dominating the rest". The morale of this argument is that no matter how evil one's ideology is, if there is a genius vision in it, then phylosophically one can argue that there is a moral basis to it. The unfortunate thing is, its always going to affect others negatively. Chairman Mau had a vision and through his cultural revolution, a million people lost their lives. It was still a vision and unfortunately, some had to pay the price. There is always two sides to everything.
If we always want to look at the negative sides of other people's vision, then we will truly believe that "sometimes the wrong vision can be more desastrous than no vision", but "no vision" is a calamity.
Serenata, to be honest i am not going to look at the racist side of Hitler, but i do strongly believe that he is better than Jawara and 99% of today's African leaders.
Did you watch Yaya Jammeh on Aljazeera recently? His vision is shallower than that "ataya caas" in which he rations his AIDS medicine. Do you know "ataya caas", its a local name for a tumbler in which we serve green tea in the Gambia. Such is the tragedy for the African race. I would rather see an evil vision that will uplift the African nation than the current state of Africa where we are the most valueless creation that currently exists on the face of the earth. |
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Edited by - BornAfrican on 25 May 2007 16:52:11 |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 16:54:02
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Kay,
You are right. When i read the interview i nearly fainted. You know why? Becos BB was highly esteemed, so for him to deviate from the truth(the corruption and the failure of the PPP) was disgusting.
I should remind BB, that it was during his tenure as VP and Minister of Education, that the his daughter i think Hawa was selcted to study in Malaysia along with other students. BB being so crafty endorsed that the ministry pay the airfares for those students. That was the first and last . The subsequent students were asked to apy their way. The arrangement with the IIU (International Islamic University of Malaysia, was that once accepted the scholarship was automatic atleast from what we were told by the scholarship board. However the accepted student should pay their way to Malaysia. Why did BB authorize the payment of the airfares just to be stopped the following years?
At the Projects Unit of the Ministry at the time BB was there most of the staff were from Kiang and a number of them from his home village.
So Mr. VP your hands are stained too. |
madiss |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 16:54:02
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Kay,
You are right. When i read the interview i nearly fainted. You know why? Becos BB was highly esteemed, so for him to deviate from the truth(the corruption and the failure of the PPP) was disgusting.
I should remind BB, that it was during his tenure as VP and Minister of Education, that the his daughter i think Hawa was selcted to study in Malaysia along with other students. BB being so crafty endorsed that the ministry pay the airfares for those students. That was the first and last . The subsequent students were asked to apy their way. The arrangement with the IIU (International Islamic University of Malaysia, was that once accepted the scholarship was automatic atleast from what we were told by the scholarship board. However the accepted student should pay their way to Malaysia. Why did BB authorize the payment of the airfares just to be stopped the following years?
At the Projects Unit of the Ministry at the time BB was there most of the staff were from Kiang and a number of them from his home village.
So Mr. VP your hands are stained too. |
madiss |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 19:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Yet Jawara and the PPP clung to power year after year through an electoral system that was hardly independent.
Are you then saying that the current Independent Electoral Commission is independent. Well we saw the Chairpersons being hired and fired after every election. In the current set up, the Chairman of the IEC is appointed by the President and serves at the "pleasure" of the president.
In the first Republic, the head of the Electoral Office is not appointed by the President but by the Secretary General with the advice of the Permanent Secretary Ministry of Local Govt. and approved by the PSC. It was not a political position. It was a position for career civil servants who worked in local governemnt department or at the ministry.
Merely having a name called Independent does not guarantee anything. Like the Mandinka say: DIMBAA TOFO BUKA DAA JANI.
I probably think that there was a more levelled playing field in the first republic than now. Civil servants could make decisions without fear of a political consequence.
I once attended an interview at the PSC with one of Jawara's daughters for a job at the ministry of Agriculture. She sat on that hard bench along the corridors just like everyone of us with no security guard. This was in 1994 a few months before the coup. I came for a different job.
This was when Secratary Generals were real generals. The like of Langley, Mahoney, evans, etc who kept the public service away from politics. In those days, a memo from SG as was commonly known, was photocopied and used as point of reference in policy matters.
Permanent secretaries who sat behind cabinet ministers in parliament providing techincal support have long gone. Today, you will be suprised how much they know about the party than their jobs.
The simple criteria now is when asked to jump, they only ask how high and not why and how. The schemes of services were quite effective recruitment tools and also for career development. I will be suprised if any senior officers today have heard of this document. May be you should conduct a poll.
I want to be schooled about how independent the electoral office is and what autonomy they have. Did we not just see them consulting the executive about election date before talking to the other parties. I believe Halifa took this up or may be it was Darboe. This was the just ended election.
Did we get to know why Bishop Johnson, Roberrts; Imam Fatty; Ndondi Njie and many others left?. In an idependent system, this should have been clear to all by now. May be those in Yorobawol are part of another galaxy.
If the electoral office was not independent then, ask PDOIS if they ever spent a day in jail in the first republic or may be Waa if he ever went to Janjangbureh etc.
Its history in the first republic and upto date that a sitting MP and cabinet memeber of PPP was challenged by a brother in the opposition party.
I stand corrected where ever i go wrong I am not supporting PPP but i thought i should bring these issues to light. Its a debate and we are celebrating free speech. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 19:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Yet Jawara and the PPP clung to power year after year through an electoral system that was hardly independent.
Are you then saying that the current Independent Electoral Commission is independent. Well we saw the Chairpersons being hired and fired after every election. In the current set up, the Chairman of the IEC is appointed by the President and serves at the "pleasure" of the president.
In the first Republic, the head of the Electoral Office is not appointed by the President but by the Secretary General with the advice of the Permanent Secretary Ministry of Local Govt. and approved by the PSC. It was not a political position. It was a position for career civil servants who worked in local governemnt department or at the ministry.
Merely having a name called Independent does not guarantee anything. Like the Mandinka say: DIMBAA TOFO BUKA DAA JANI.
I probably think that there was a more levelled playing field in the first republic than now. Civil servants could make decisions without fear of a political consequence.
I once attended an interview at the PSC with one of Jawara's daughters for a job at the ministry of Agriculture. She sat on that hard bench along the corridors just like everyone of us with no security guard. This was in 1994 a few months before the coup. I came for a different job.
This was when Secratary Generals were real generals. The like of Langley, Mahoney, evans, etc who kept the public service away from politics. In those days, a memo from SG as was commonly known, was photocopied and used as point of reference in policy matters.
Permanent secretaries who sat behind cabinet ministers in parliament providing techincal support have long gone. Today, you will be suprised how much they know about the party than their jobs.
The simple criteria now is when asked to jump, they only ask how high and not why and how. The schemes of services were quite effective recruitment tools and also for career development. I will be suprised if any senior officers today have heard of this document. May be you should conduct a poll.
I want to be schooled about how independent the electoral office is and what autonomy they have. Did we not just see them consulting the executive about election date before talking to the other parties. I believe Halifa took this up or may be it was Darboe. This was the just ended election.
Did we get to know why Bishop Johnson, Roberrts; Imam Fatty; Ndondi Njie and many others left?. In an idependent system, this should have been clear to all by now. May be those in Yorobawol are part of another galaxy.
If the electoral office was not independent then, ask PDOIS if they ever spent a day in jail in the first republic or may be Waa if he ever went to Janjangbureh etc.
Its history in the first republic and upto date that a sitting MP and cabinet memeber of PPP was challenged by a brother in the opposition party.
I stand corrected where ever i go wrong I am not supporting PPP but i thought i should bring these issues to light. Its a debate and we are celebrating free speech. |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 19:39:17
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Konds,
No-one is saying that the current IEC is better than whatever obtained before 1994. As far as i can see they are both serving their respective ruling gov'ts. No-matter wat we say these institutions were both venomous to true democratic principles. The only difference is the colour of their venoms.
The APRC has turned the IEC into it s own hand tool.
I think wat Kay was pointing to was the fact that despite Jawara and the PPP being returned always, the Electoral commission was bias. Thus their victories were flawed. They were fooling the outside world and clung onto power longer that necessary.
Seeing Jawara kids before 1994 wasn't special. Even Jawara before 1981 goes to his farm in Yumdum with only his driver.
Serahuleh man tend to your business and let the politicians do the job for you |
madiss |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 19:39:17
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Konds,
No-one is saying that the current IEC is better than whatever obtained before 1994. As far as i can see they are both serving their respective ruling gov'ts. No-matter wat we say these institutions were both venomous to true democratic principles. The only difference is the colour of their venoms.
The APRC has turned the IEC into it s own hand tool.
I think wat Kay was pointing to was the fact that despite Jawara and the PPP being returned always, the Electoral commission was bias. Thus their victories were flawed. They were fooling the outside world and clung onto power longer that necessary.
Seeing Jawara kids before 1994 wasn't special. Even Jawara before 1981 goes to his farm in Yumdum with only his driver.
Serahuleh man tend to your business and let the politicians do the job for you |
madiss |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 19:52:36
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Kondorong,
This APRC government is full of empty terminologies. They emerge with high-sounding titles. That is how far they intend to deceive Gambians. Look at the long chain of names blended on Jammeh's person. See such change of official titles as in Secretary of State for this and that for a simple title Minister. Leave it in the hands of Jammeh, don't be surprised to have the name Gambia changed to Jambiya (you know how that is coined). From street names in Banjul to the historic McCarthy Square, all the change of names was done as ways of diverting public attention. With Dictatorship, it is a fatal error for anyone to take it that a fair system will ever prevail. What obtains in Gambia of today is where people in public office have to be sure they don't offend APRC conventions. For rules, forget it. It is for all such reasons that serious efforts are needed to bring normalcy in Gambia. No mistake about it. For the next 40 years that Jammeh pegs to stay as dictator in Gambia, he has no desire to free the ordinary citizens enjoy ordinary rights. Rather, he wants us to fear him. That is not going to work. The way he denounced the previous regime is the same way he deserves to be denounced. This is not intended to ridicule Jammeh but it is wrong and quite unfair that Jammeh projected himself as capable of recognising others' fault only for him to choose a faulty mode of dispensing national services. Jammeh is determined to ruin Gambia beyond repair and this is the best time for Gambians to stop that happening. If he is taken for granted, we will all pay for it. Gambians in the Diaspora are more affected than many think about it. Check it on the value of your regular remittance to family, friends, or even what you need to build houses and other cost of personal projects. These are some of the good reasons why Gambians must rise against Dr Yahya's dictatorship. Nothing personal but genuinely National. |
Karamba |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 19:52:36
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Kondorong,
This APRC government is full of empty terminologies. They emerge with high-sounding titles. That is how far they intend to deceive Gambians. Look at the long chain of names blended on Jammeh's person. See such change of official titles as in Secretary of State for this and that for a simple title Minister. Leave it in the hands of Jammeh, don't be surprised to have the name Gambia changed to Jambiya (you know how that is coined). From street names in Banjul to the historic McCarthy Square, all the change of names was done as ways of diverting public attention. With Dictatorship, it is a fatal error for anyone to take it that a fair system will ever prevail. What obtains in Gambia of today is where people in public office have to be sure they don't offend APRC conventions. For rules, forget it. It is for all such reasons that serious efforts are needed to bring normalcy in Gambia. No mistake about it. For the next 40 years that Jammeh pegs to stay as dictator in Gambia, he has no desire to free the ordinary citizens enjoy ordinary rights. Rather, he wants us to fear him. That is not going to work. The way he denounced the previous regime is the same way he deserves to be denounced. This is not intended to ridicule Jammeh but it is wrong and quite unfair that Jammeh projected himself as capable of recognising others' fault only for him to choose a faulty mode of dispensing national services. Jammeh is determined to ruin Gambia beyond repair and this is the best time for Gambians to stop that happening. If he is taken for granted, we will all pay for it. Gambians in the Diaspora are more affected than many think about it. Check it on the value of your regular remittance to family, friends, or even what you need to build houses and other cost of personal projects. These are some of the good reasons why Gambians must rise against Dr Yahya's dictatorship. Nothing personal but genuinely National. |
Karamba |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 20:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by MADIBA
Konds,
No-one is saying that the current IEC is better than whatever obtained before 1994. As far as i can see they are both serving their respective ruling gov'ts. No-matter wat we say these institutions were both venomous to true democratic principles. The only difference is the colour of their venoms.
The APRC has turned the IEC into it s own hand tool.
I think wat Kay was pointing to was the fact that despite Jawara and the PPP being returned always, the Electoral commission was bias. Thus their victories were flawed. They were fooling the outside world and clung onto power longer that necessary.
Seeing Jawara kids before 1994 wasn't special. Even Jawara before 1981 goes to his farm in Yumdum with only his driver.
Serahuleh man tend to your business and let the politicians do the job for you
Has any gambian met Baby Mariam like jawara's kids going to the farm in Dobong with only a driver?
On a more serious note, having the daughter of a sitting president sit on a hard bench in line for a job interview with others is certainly out of the ordinary in African politics.
Can you show how the Electoral Office in the first Republic was not independent.
We all know, at least those old enough to vote or had interest in politics that the electoral register was posted at every village bantaba for any one to challenge the registrations of a person or persons. Now, a whole village disappears from our elctoral register. This happened in CRD a village in the neigborhood of Jahally pacharr. Even the Alkalo was not on the list.
The issue of having people vote even when their names were not on the register was, if it ever happend pre-1994, is something i have never heard of. Now even the courts have said its ok to vote without ones name on the public regsiter.
It makes a mockery of the legal instruments of checks and balances in the Elections Decree for the General public to veto but then have the courts say, you can vote even if your name is not on the register. Do we have a parallel register? You can only vet one register and not some mythical one that runs concurrently.
If one can vote without having ones name on the register, then the Elections Decree should be amended to remove the provisions which allowed citizens to challenge names in the register.
The easiest way to avoid a challenge is to issue a voters card and not publish it thereby saving oneself from a challenge in the courts. There are names not in the register but who are by court order can and should vote.
So IEC cannot be sure of the number of voters cards they issued since the register does not show all the names. This case was at the courts before the last election and the opposition lost. Pre-1994, any name not on the register could not vote. It was that simple. Opposition parties have challenged names before but have you heard of any since 1994? |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 20:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by MADIBA
Konds,
No-one is saying that the current IEC is better than whatever obtained before 1994. As far as i can see they are both serving their respective ruling gov'ts. No-matter wat we say these institutions were both venomous to true democratic principles. The only difference is the colour of their venoms.
The APRC has turned the IEC into it s own hand tool.
I think wat Kay was pointing to was the fact that despite Jawara and the PPP being returned always, the Electoral commission was bias. Thus their victories were flawed. They were fooling the outside world and clung onto power longer that necessary.
Seeing Jawara kids before 1994 wasn't special. Even Jawara before 1981 goes to his farm in Yumdum with only his driver.
Serahuleh man tend to your business and let the politicians do the job for you
Has any gambian met Baby Mariam like jawara's kids going to the farm in Dobong with only a driver?
On a more serious note, having the daughter of a sitting president sit on a hard bench in line for a job interview with others is certainly out of the ordinary in African politics.
Can you show how the Electoral Office in the first Republic was not independent.
We all know, at least those old enough to vote or had interest in politics that the electoral register was posted at every village bantaba for any one to challenge the registrations of a person or persons. Now, a whole village disappears from our elctoral register. This happened in CRD a village in the neigborhood of Jahally pacharr. Even the Alkalo was not on the list.
The issue of having people vote even when their names were not on the register was, if it ever happend pre-1994, is something i have never heard of. Now even the courts have said its ok to vote without ones name on the public regsiter.
It makes a mockery of the legal instruments of checks and balances in the Elections Decree for the General public to veto but then have the courts say, you can vote even if your name is not on the register. Do we have a parallel register? You can only vet one register and not some mythical one that runs concurrently.
If one can vote without having ones name on the register, then the Elections Decree should be amended to remove the provisions which allowed citizens to challenge names in the register.
The easiest way to avoid a challenge is to issue a voters card and not publish it thereby saving oneself from a challenge in the courts. There are names not in the register but who are by court order can and should vote.
So IEC cannot be sure of the number of voters cards they issued since the register does not show all the names. This case was at the courts before the last election and the opposition lost. Pre-1994, any name not on the register could not vote. It was that simple. Opposition parties have challenged names before but have you heard of any since 1994? |
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salimina
253 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 22:49:51
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Madiba,
Bro you are right. Jammeh got his lessons from BB.He can be crafty now but in his time he is one of the most corrupt officials in the first republic.Its a sort of a vicious circus.Jammeh is doing to kanili now is the same thing BB was to the origins of the whole of kiang.No dispute about that. Its a plain fact.There were people in kiang who flourished because of BB. I know them very well but i will never called names.There are people in the former GUC who does not work more than two days a week but no one dear to touch them or complained about there input at work. They are purposely there to carried out BB`s local politics in kiang.Some kiang boys were handpicked by BB to be employed at any institutions they like.
Madiss, jilanka is a good student. He mastered the craft. |
Edited by salimina |
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salimina
253 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 22:49:51
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Madiba,
Bro you are right. Jammeh got his lessons from BB.He can be crafty now but in his time he is one of the most corrupt officials in the first republic.Its a sort of a vicious circus.Jammeh is doing to kanili now is the same thing BB was to the origins of the whole of kiang.No dispute about that. Its a plain fact.There were people in kiang who flourished because of BB. I know them very well but i will never called names.There are people in the former GUC who does not work more than two days a week but no one dear to touch them or complained about there input at work. They are purposely there to carried out BB`s local politics in kiang.Some kiang boys were handpicked by BB to be employed at any institutions they like.
Madiss, jilanka is a good student. He mastered the craft. |
Edited by salimina |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 23:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by jambo
i would not have sympathy with jawara, you reap what you sow, his own children and family left him, he did not do anything for gambia. he went broke in the uk, what a stupid man, all that money he received and did nothing with.
he has been judged by a higher court than mankind.
we are talking about a greyold man here .so let us have some commpassion please .the granddad fail us .but for us to want vengence on him so late is not beneficial to any one. i never once support jawara ,but now he passes his sellby date .love and commpassion should overcome our dislike of his failures. we should learn from his mistakes and move on as men and women . |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 23:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by jambo
i would not have sympathy with jawara, you reap what you sow, his own children and family left him, he did not do anything for gambia. he went broke in the uk, what a stupid man, all that money he received and did nothing with.
he has been judged by a higher court than mankind.
we are talking about a greyold man here .so let us have some commpassion please .the granddad fail us .but for us to want vengence on him so late is not beneficial to any one. i never once support jawara ,but now he passes his sellby date .love and commpassion should overcome our dislike of his failures. we should learn from his mistakes and move on as men and women . |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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