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Momodou
Denmark
11604 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 00:00:00
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There is no doubt that one finds the Camara/kamara surename among Portugese speaking people in the other parts of the world but I am convinced that the migration of the surename is from West Africa to the North and to Latin America instead of the other way round. Camara/kamara had been in existance before the Mali empire which was around 1235, long before the Portugese first sailed to West Africa in 1455.
I have stated in an earlier posting http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=792&whichpage=2 that most European surenames are only found along the coast. The Portugese only sailed along the coast and the river and had never been to the interior of West Africa where Camara/kamara had been in existance before Sunjata the first ruler of Mali.
The URL provided by Karamba above states that “On 4 July 1460, King Dom Afonso V of Portugal issued a decree changing his name to João Gonçalves Zarco da Câmara de Lobos. Usage then shortened his family name to Gonçalves da Câmara, which was subsequently passed on to his descendants.”
Looking at the dates, one can easily notice that 1460 was 225 years after The establishment of Mali Empire.
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A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 00:21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
I am not a historian , so Kondorong , Santafara and janyafara and others can probably correct me here.
Karamba, very interesting one, thanks
That the probability of Africans adopting European is higher than the other way round is a very interesting notion, due to our Europhonic mindsets.
“In 1418, he and Tristão Vaz Teixeira were ordered by Prince Henry to explore the land of Guinea in Africa, south of Morocco. Carried off course by a storm out into the Atlantic Ocean, they came upon an uninhabited island which they named Porto Santo. In 1419, they discovered a larger island to the southwest, which became known as Madeira. On Madeira, Zarco named a certain area "Câmara de Lobos" due to a number of sea lions found in a cave there.”Quote source
Is the Camara above the same K/Camra in West Africa, if so, who got it from whom?
The surname K/Camara was taken from West Africa by the Portuguese, that’s why its also found in Brazil and India.
1418 was long after the empire of Mali, which was around the 13th. Centre. Surely, there were Portuguese seafarers who sailed the West coast of Africa before 1418. If the K/Camaras existed during the empire of Mali then the Portuguese most have gotten the name from West Africa and not the other way round.
Moreover, the names that came with the returned slaves from the new world are not able to spread so widely in West Africa in such a short period. Secondly, most of the returned slaves are none Muslims how come then the majority of the West African K/Camaras are Muslims? And so fort...
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 01:42:24
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There is convincing evidnence presented by both Momodou and Janko over the prospects that the Portugese and others got their K/Camara from West Africa and not the reverse as shown by the dates in perspective in reference to the Mali Empire. Because some of these travellers keep records, we are easily baffled to accept their accounts and claims more than we readily take from our own. By what Momodou brought out, 225 years is quite a generation gap. If the K/Camaras lived within that gap, we can easily see the link closer to home. We can all appreciate the essence of digging out facts and keeping account of our past and present. Bantaba is by all regards an instrumental platform for better purpose. Well done Momodou Camara for this useful facility. |
Karamba |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 02:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
1)The Cora is not that dfferent from other instruments from the gambia/casamnce/bissau region, there are similar instruments played by jolas similar to the akonting but i dont know the name. its look very similar to the kora. The kunters in mali and bambaras in general also play similar instruments.
2)Toumani's father Sidiki was born in The Gambia but his parents are from Mali, thats why he returned there later on.
3)i think their other brother stayed with the university at IFAN
1) The issue is about the Cora (the only one with 21 strings), which is just one amongst many string-instruments found in and around our region.
2) What is your point? About 60% of the Gambian Mandinkas are originally from Tillibou (mostly Mali)
3)Who’s brother "stayed with the university at IFAN"?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 10:56:15
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quote:
Originally posted by kiwi
What can you say about the family name Tunkara? Is it a marabout name?
kiwi ,tunkara is more of sarahuleh family name . i am not sure whether they are marabout or not but one can find out.
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Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 10:58:13
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the karama's defending their heritage .kayatta is right you are from protugal not africa. ,karamba don't support them . |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 11:49:29
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Santanfara,
Going by Momodou's evidence; supported by chronological sequencing, it is hard to defeat them on this one. For now, they are on the winning edge until we are able to present other more compelling details. |
Karamba |
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sisay
48 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 12:30:38
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Njucks, i believe you are talking about the simbing, which is just like kora but with less strings. Also the Bamana have simbi, is same.
Santa, yes Sekou Touray was second to none in his patronage of the arts, but he was also a harsh and insecure dictator. He had a great many innocent people imprisoned in the notorious Camp Boiro on suspicion of plotting against his regime. Some of those who began to gain popularity were executed. Still, many prefered him to the current dictator there.
Kiwi, the name Tunkara is also Sarahuleh. In the Sunjata story the Mansa of Wagadu, Sumaba Sisay, had a cousin, Musa Tunkara, who was Mansa of Mema. I don't think it is a Mori name but if it was a leader's name it could be a Mori name. It is also a Jali name.
The name Kamara was definitely around before the Portuguese arrived. That name also exists twice in the Sunjata epic which happened 2 centuries before Columbus and the arrival of the Portuguese. Faran Kamara was Sunjata's childhood friend (he later became King of Tabon) and Sunjata's father's third wife was Namanjay Kamara. |
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kiwi
Sweden
661 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 13:31:19
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| Thanks, Santanfara and Sisay, I just happen to know one Tunkara who is a marabout. |
kiwi |
Edited by - kiwi on 19 Aug 2007 13:34:37 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 14:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Santanfara
.....what did you know about him ? a dictator or a panafricanist and traditionalist ? but what about his issue with some pul futas ?
sisay it could be the simbing. i'll find out & get back to u
Santanfara i think he was one of the greatest sons of Africa like many leaders of his time. In the end he was simply suffering from paranioia after seeing what happened to N'Krumah. Portugal had tried to invade his country because he was supportng Cabral & co, and the soviets were also interfering. France too was invovled in undermining after he said the famous 'Non' to de Gaulle.
I think Momodou is right. The Camara surname has nothing to do with Portugal. We are making a mistake in the Bantanba. If you look at the two words they look similar but are pronounced differently.
Camara/kamara and Câmara are totally different.for example we say Kaabu but if you go to Guinea Bissau they say the same thing but spell it Gabu. so the pronounciation might be totally different.
i would assume that Câmara in portugese means a room or house.In english a Camera (device for taking photographs)is from the latin word for a room because the early pinhole cameras had to be in a dark wooden box. This is still used in Italian today.Portugese, spanish,French and Italian and romanian are all latin languages
the guy was probably called João Gonçalves Zarco and da Câmara de Lobos would probably mean from the room/house of Lobos, therefore not implying a surname
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Edited by - njucks on 19 Aug 2007 14:35:58 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2007 : 00:10:31
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| njucks ,one thing i am very much planning to do is travel africa and know places . i intend to do that in the near future. i enjoy your real life experience of traveling to some this places. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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ylowe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2007 : 01:49:35
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Kondorong,
During the PPP era all the jammehs were mandinkas or at least considered themselves as mandinkas but nowaday all jammehs are jolas. My point is you cannot tell someones tribe by their surnames. Kons please elaborate. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2007 : 08:08:16
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Thanks Momodou , Janko and others for your well-informed and eloquent posts. I am going to be learning a lot from you guys here , because history is an unfamiliar territory for me. Here are a few questions I would like to ask :
1)Does K/Camara have any meaning either in Mandingo or Portuguese ?
2)According to the article , the Portuguese came up with the name "Camara de Lobos" after sea lions , not the people.(and later adopted by Zarco) . Was this event an independent line of evolution of the Camara surname or it derived from the indigenous people of West Africa?
3)Did the Portuguese sailors ever come in contact with the native Camaras of West Africa ?
4) If the Portuguese sailors were limited to the coasts and never ventured into the interior , how did they come in contact with the Camaras of West Africa to get their surname? |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2007 : 08:15:40
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| Njucks: You made a very intelligent post. I agree with you. I will come back to your posts after Momodou , Janko and others respond to my questions. Thank you. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 20 Aug 2007 08:16:25 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2007 : 11:47:05
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Kayjatta
That the probability of Africans adopting European is higher than the other way round is due to our Europhonic mindsets. Is a grove mistake putting K/Camara in the category of Mendi, Gomez and Jonsson family names.
1) The answer to this question is on post 115
2) "Camara de Lobos"….. after sea lions”. The totem, taano (in Mandingka) of the K/Camaras is a boa snake, the insignia or untouchable symbol.
As for questions 3 and 4 I am not in the position to give a 100% accurate answer as insinuated because is a matter of making a qualified assumption based on all information contained herein, dates, the empire of Mali and other oral tradition sources.
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