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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 01:42:15
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quote:
Originally posted by inez
[quote]Originally posted by toubab1020
[quote]Originally posted by Lily
Hey, please there is no need whatever for you to explain anything at all I was joining in this topic but I really would prefer to leave it to the ladies, no gender issues or anything like that. I feel that this is best continued by you girls,I was a bit unsure earlier but now I am certain, however for what its worth I think that maybe everyone should consider starting another topic,as diametrically held views will never reach a comprimise.
Dispite the flattering invitation to stay I shall bow out of this one.
I do miss Sister Omega not joining in she and Twinky would have great discussions I am sure!! |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 18 Feb 2007 01:46:20 |
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 02:17:01
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Thanx Toubab1020.
The system of wife inheritance is primarily to keep the children within the same family. Instead of being adopted into a family of strangers. It doesn’t however take into consideration the emotional needs of a woman. Or recognises woman’s right to choose her husband. Therefore the marriage is a forced marriage.
In the case Inez has raised it seems as her friend feels completely powerless to oppose the decision of her late husband’s family. She lacks the support of her birth family who are not prepared to allow her and her children back into their family.
This could be because the woman’s family is not in the position to financial support her and her children. They probably feel that it her late husband’s family’s duty to do so, and bride inheritance is the traditional way of doing this.
As often is the case in these types of marriages romantic love has nothing to do with it. The purpose of this type of marriage is to prevent the deceased children from being adopted into another man’s family and to keep the extended family together.
Now if the woman chooses to leave she can leave her children with her husband’s family. Or she can take them with her. This by no means will be an easy option if she doesn’t have the resources available to maintain her children.
I think please correct me if I am wrong, children under Gambian law have the right up until the age of twelve to remain with their mothers. However at twelve they have the right to decide which parent they want to live with.
But in reality unless this woman is strong enough to resist the pressure placed on her to marry her brother-in-law then it’s more likely that she will marry him to safeguard her children’s future.
This is why it’s so important that women are educated and that women rights are put further up on the agenda to safeguard woman and her children. There is a fine balance between supporting and imposing foreign ideals onto other cultures because the Western family structure have broken down into the nuclear family structures and these have broken down even further to into serial stepfamilies.
Gambian family external structure still survives and in order for it survives it has adopted certain Islamic and traditional ideals which keep it together. Inez I think It is better to try to understand and support this woman in her situation than to impose alien value systems onto her.
If she chooses to refuse the marriage then she must face the consequences and sacrifices that go along with her option.
I wish her all the best.
Peace
Sister Omega
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Peace
Sister Omega |
Edited by - Sister Omega on 18 Feb 2007 02:24:32 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 08:29:01
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Sister Omega, I agree 100% with this posting. It is a difficult balance.
In Gambia the women appear very strong on the surface and I thought I was seeing matriarchal society. But Islam seems to have managed to impose patriarchal laws on Gambian society.
I was raised in an extended family. I saw my cousins and grandparents at least once a week and spent christmas, holidays, birthdays with them. We were very close. My parents were married for 24 years and we lived in the same house for the whole of that time. All of my family (aunts, uncles, grandparents etc ) lived within 15 mins walk of each other in Leicester. It was a very safe, caring environment to be raised in. The downside is that it is inward looking and a bit claustrophobic.
When I first visited a Gambian village it felt very familiar to me. Does that sound odd? All the family together and that being the most important thing. Money and posesssions not so important as spending time with each other. That took me straight back to my childhood.
In the west there has just been a UNICEF report saying that British children are the most unhappy in Europe. The break down of the family has alot to do with that. Serial monogamy may be great for adults bringing freedom and happiness, but is it best for children? It appears not. Children need to know they are loved and they need reliablity and security. Put simply, their needs need to come first.
Serial step families are difficult to integrate and make sure the childrens needs are being meet.It is not impossible, but very difficult.
What I still find shocking about the Gambian situation is that the children are seen as 'belonging' to the man. In the West it is usually the opposite. I just can't imagine leaving my children behind. But I cant imagine marrying my brother in law either!  
Who cares for the children in this case? The man? His mother? His sisters? Is that as good for the children as their mothers love? Do they still see the mother? Or is she exiled?
As a Westerner I would be much happier if the women is free to go to her family and take her children with her. But perhaps they dont want them back because of the economic burden of providing for them. |
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twinkly
United Kingdom
190 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 10:58:26
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You are very right Toubab1020 we would have great discussions because at least Sister Omega understands things properly.
Can't understand though why you try to put her on my back.Nevermind
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 11:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by twinkly
You are very right Toubab1020 we would have great discussions because at least Sister Omega understands things properly.
Can't understand though why you try to put her on my back.Nevermind
Well, if Sister Omega "understands things properly" then she must reinforce all ideas held by yourself,so how can it be that Sister Omega is "on your back"? Sisters input to any discussion is always well considered although her ideas are OFTEN opposite to those of the mainstream.Her last posting in this topic shows that I think you will agree.
(I am not joining in just answering your question!.)
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 12:29:54
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Sister Omega's posting is (again) a very good one, telling us in her own, somewhat detached, way how these things have come about in the Gambia. I think her advice to Inez to try and help her friend to make best of the situation at hand instead of imposing 'alien' values on her, is very worthwhile. I am sure Inez will agree that this is the best way if she wants to help her friend without confusing her even more.
But i can also see Sister O. stressing the importance of education for women so at least they would have some more means to fend for themselves, thus being able to make their own lives better, independent from others.
I have been thinking about Twinkly's first posting a lot, wondering if i was 'judging'. Mind you, i would never have told my mother-in-law something like 'oh, but you should never have accepted that'. I understood she had no choice at the time. That doesn't make that i didn't feel sorry for the course of her life, thinking to myself (as i said before) 'if she would have been born on my side of the world, she at least would have had more choices'.
I don't think it is anyone's meaning to be 'on someone's back', after all we are discussing here a situation that we, women (sorry Toubab1020, but you were very welcome as a kind of 'chairperson' to keep the discussion going) can imagine to be in - and we would all have different ideas how to become happy again after the death of a beloved partner, maybe being left with small children to take care of. These ideas cannot be but different, because we all come from different background.
Gambiabev, i read the same report and i was amazed that UK children are supposed to be most unhappy and Dutch children are supposed to be most happy - after all, all there is between our two countries is a small stretch of water. I am sure there must be happy children in the UK as well, just as there must be (unfortunately) some children who feel very unhappy in the Netherlands. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 15:42:46
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Inez i quote you "her brother stopped this and now is my job to find her a husband!!! He and his sister asked me to do that" think about that who would you find for her, i guarantee she will never be a first wife, this has to do with economics, it is about support, who will put food on the table, pay rent, school fees.
can you help in otherways, perhaps set up a business or a training course, tailoring, typing or something. i am not talking about a major thing but at least she can support herself. for you to get involved in the husband search is not correct, she went through this the first time, if you want independece for her, then financial factors come into play.
I think when she original got married some sort of dowry was involved, if she goes back this might have to be repaid don't quote me on it but think about it. |
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inez
279 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 15:49:07
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quote:
Originally posted by anna
Sister Omega's posting is (again) a very good one, telling us in her own, somewhat detached, way how these things have come about in the Gambia. I think her advice to Inez to try and help her friend to make best of the situation at hand instead of imposing 'alien' values on her, is very worthwhile. I am sure Inez will agree that this is the best way if she wants to help her friend without confusing her even more.
But i can also see Sister O. stressing the importance of education for women so at least they would have some more means to fend for themselves, thus being able to make their own lives better, independent from others.
I agree on many things in Sister Omegas posting but I do have some problems with believing that there is such a law in the Gambia which allowes children to stay with their mothers until the age of 12. If there is, in what situations is it practised? Do someone else know anything about this?
Thanks for the advice to help the girl without confusing her with som alien values. Just want to make it clear that the situation started before I got to Gambia and I never even had in my mind to start preaching about feminism in that situation. I did listen to her and her eldest brother and some other people involved. I visted her in her late husbands family compaund almost every day, met the brother in law, the mother in law, the sisters in law and all the kids. The only thing I could do was to buy her some time by giving that family some money, bags of rice... Of course when she told me she didn´t want to marry the brother, I told her she shouldn´t do it if she didn´t want to. I told her eldest brother I would sponsor the girl if the parents let her come back home. That was an option for some time because the family is very poor, but this is about more than money...Her father started pressing her to get married to one of his friends, very old man with several wifes. Maybe he was afraid she would meet someone by her own...or maybe the money I gave was not enough and he needed some bigger amount so he could take himself a third wife which he wanted to do for some years now..This is only speculation from my side but before when we bought the family bags of rice, he sold the most of it and kept asking for more and more. We asked women in the house how the rice could finish so fast and before it lasted for so much longer...so now all the money goes to his wifes and he is not too happy about it. So back to topic, as you now understand this girl is more than a friend and I´m involved in her life through her family which makes it more difficult for me to help her. Or more expencive for me. I promised to help her but the Gambia has emptied my wallet these past years and I do have my own family to support here too. And working two jobs contineusly is getting hard so my only change to help is to start a business with her and her brothers so we all can get less stressed. Thank you all and special thank to Twinkly who really has helped me to think out of box.  |
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inez
279 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 16:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by jambo
Inez i quote you "her brother stopped this and now is my job to find her a husband!!! He and his sister asked me to do that" think about that who would you find for her, i guarantee she will never be a first wife, this has to do with economics, it is about support, who will put food on the table, pay rent, school fees.
can you help in otherways, perhaps set up a business or a training course, tailoring, typing or something. i am not talking about a major thing but at least she can support herself. for you to get involved in the husband search is not correct, she went through this the first time, if you want independece for her, then financial factors come into play. ´
I think when she original got married some sort of dowry was involved, if she goes back this might have to be repaid don't quote me on it but think about it.
You are right Jambo..now again I was writing my posting while you did yours. I think you get some answers right away. I agree...how could I find her a good husband since I don´t still trust my own choice and got married to him Thatswhy I asked Momodou if there was any "search for that (nice husband)"  . I asked her now on my last trip if she has met someone she liked and she said no. She want me to find her a husband here in Sweden...If I knew one normal trustforthy single man here, I could help them to meet but that is too big responsibility and my brother is allready married so we just need to forget about that. |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 16:18:09
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hi inez, i know your heart is in the right place but there has to be a time limit on the amount of money you are spending, i say this because if happened to me. if i keep giving money and help what message does that send. i would be no better than some of the big corporations/governments who keep giving aid, but not trade, (SMILE SISTER OMEGA ).
HELP HER GET A business, my two families have market stalls where they choose what they want to sell. THIS IS EMPOWERMENT FOR WOMEN, my other help went to paying for a girl to attend a tailoring course in Banjul, st joseph's/cluny skills college. she has finished the course, has received money and has returned to her village with a skill. I give you these facts so that you know it can be done.
other members of the Bantaba have their own tales of help. GIVING MONEY IS NOT ALWAYS THE ANSWER. BUT EMPOWERMENT IS. I HAVE BEEN TO CHURCH THIS MORNING AND I AM FEELING VERY MOTIVATIONAL  |
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inez
279 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 16:37:42
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Right Jambo, I agree, giving money has to stop for reason that there is no more money to give
When it comes to business for her, we women have together figured out something really good that demands the skills she allready has. Nothing bad with tailoring and marketstalls but there is allready so many of them. It took some time to "sell" the idea for the brother but it´s done now and all we need is money to start with. She has the skills so the family can´t take the business from her. When the business is established the girl and rest of her family will get what they need and it will give her/them independence..and they can also get rid of me if they want |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 16:52:29
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| Hi Inez - What kind of money are you talking about for start up costs? |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 17:52:09
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lily it can cost from £10-20 for a market stall, it depends if you just want to pay rent only or want to stock it for her.
the tailoring was £50.00 for two terms are you in a position to send goods to gambia, i ask this because i helped a woman who does braiding in her compound she needed hair extensions, and nail varnish so that she could set up a beauty salon within her community. you would be surporsed what they will pay to look good for a wedding. she does not really leave the compound and nobody can take it away from her. the outlay for that was £9.00, i bought the goods at brixton market. small pebbles, big waves if you are in a position to help please carry on, i did this last year because i wanted to close down the hand-outs and refocus on hand-ups. if something happened to me i would not like it if they were my dependents ALSO POWER TO THE FEMALES, because they are in the house/compound and have to deal with the daily fall out if there is no food on the table, or schooll fees are not paid.
LILY did you have a business in mind |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 18:56:52
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| Hey Jambo - I agree with your ideas of helping rather than just giving (although sometimes the giving is also necessary). Business 'loans' seem like a very good idea - so I am just collecting all the information. Is that monthly rent for a stall? |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 19:15:27
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in serrunkuda it was for a month, but in senegambia i am not sure because at the time they did not pay for rental but just set up a stall at the side of the of the market so they just needed seed money to buy something to sell, hope that helps. if there is not market to have a stall on, try giving something they can sell just outside the compound such as oil/ or fish.
after writing the previous replies, i was left smiling because i was thinking about the women who have the "little business" they are up and out of the compund very early and down to the main market to buy vegetables to sell, independent ladies, they are happy because they are in charge of the family income and budget. both of them cannot read but they can count and know to the last dls how much food costs one of the women was divorced by her husband and had to leave the compound within 24 hours DO NOT GET ME STARTED ON THAT TOPIC, she sells palm oil, charcoal when i am there i visit gunjar and buy the fish in bulk they sell this. HAPPY DAYS
but I MUST STRESS THAT IT IS NOT A BUSINESS LOAN, IN A MILLION YEARS I WOULD NOT EXPECT TO BE PAID BACK BUT I DO EXPECT THEM TO MOVE FORWARD |
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