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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 17:53:36
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I am in Jamaica for work. I am staying in the heart of the country, Kingston. There are a few issues I want to discuss.
It is undeniable of African influence on Jamaican society but they do not want to look East, they are so much assimilated to pop culture. Why? They are in western hemisphere, but more like their diaspora living in Canada, UK and USA is accelerating the westernization. Jamaicans are going towards to lose connection with their roots.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 19:10:21
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If you are able to escape work sometimes I think Jamaica can be a great place for enjoyment.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 22:32:20
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| I am in Kingston. It is more like S'kunda. Noisy, crowded, rough but good night entertainment. Not like Senegambia. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2011 : 01:44:17
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Turk that is a huge generalization to say the least! Kingston is not representative of the whole of Jamaica. You need to go to Maroon Towns they have independent status within Jamaica and have preserved a lot of their African Heritage including language. Also you are on business and therefore you are probably being chaperoned around the city because certain areas will be off limits to you because you are a foreigner,due to extreme gang violence. I would suggest you visit the University of the West Indies to see whether you hypothesis holds any water. I also suggest you check out Trench Town to see whether or not your hypothesis is correct. I suggest you mix and mingle with a variety of Jamaican people before you come on to Bantaba and tell us such foolishness. After all one sparrow don't make a summer. Check out the Jamaica forums and talk to Jamaicans and see where they are at with their African Consciousness. Do you know anything about Jamaica's National Hereo's all of whom were proud of there African Heritage?
Today I, my mother and two of sisters who are Jamaican family went to the British Museum and guess what we were doing celebrating our African Heritage. My family have been going to Africa for the past 40 years. You're talking absolute BS. Do you know how many Jamaicans have repatriated to Africa and have children with Africans from the mainland? Whilst your in Jamaica you are bound to meet Jamaicans with African names.The population has been assimilated and acculturalated however we still no and celebrate our African roots. Turk I'd advise you to guard your condescending tendencies in Jamaica seriously for your own safety. Jamaica is not at all like Gambia in that respect. Jamaica is the land of wood and water it isn't called the smiling coast. Therefore Jamaicans are less inclined to take rubbish from foreigners.Especially if they think someone is insulting their intelligence. Certain areas in Kingston the gangs there have more ammunition than the Jamaican police force and they don't think twice before using them. It seems you know very little about Jamaican culture or else you wouldn't have post this rubbish on line. Just a word for the wise.
Have a good trip.
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Peace
Sister Omega |
Edited by - Sister Omega on 02 Jul 2011 02:04:46 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 02:21:35
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I am having great visit as I am with my 11 years old friends. All these years did not change a ‘ting’ (my favorite drink).
Sister, you are very emotional and that is not helping you discuss issues based on logic, knowledge and wisdom. Also being prejudged mentality does not help.
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It is undeniable of African influence on Jamaican society
It is general statement. I never denied the African presence on Jamaican culture. As my quoted statement says the African influence has been there and still is.
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but they do not want to look East…. accelerating the westernization. Jamaicans are going towards to lose connection with their roots.
Maybe, people like you, are very conscious about the roots and that is great. And there are many people like this. However, as national psych is changing and Jamaica is becoming more and more western and trend is now toward west NOT EAST. My statement is more about ‘forward looking’ statement rather than past and present situation. What I am saying ‘going towards’!!!! Personally, I wish Jamaicans change this trend as western civilization is on decline and is getting closer to the collapse.
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I would suggest you visit the University of the West Indies to see whether you hypothesis holds any water.
I already followed your advice. I had this conversation here before and indicated that I was at Mona campus at university of West Indies as a volunteer teaching assistance a decade ago. I helped graduate students and helped establishing graduate studies programs in science when I was working there as an intern as a recent graduate in UWIMona's Mathematics department. And while this trip was unrelated to my previous involvement, I am here for work, but it would be good opportunity to visit my old friends. Well again if you think I am insulting Jamaican’s intelligence, think again. My initial skeptical statement was shared by my friends who are holding teaching positions now at University of West Indies. In fact, most of them were concern about this. In fact, a wife of one of my friend started this conversation over dinner the other day. My friend is Jamaican and when I was staying in Mona, we were staying in the same dorm. I could see they are very happily married but I can see when it comes to politics little bid, she was not as passionate as his awareness with ‘Africa’ and ‘Left’. She made a statement about Grenada, 80s, the Bishop Guy ‘dictator’. My friend jumps to correct his wife and objected her talk about the Grenada revolution and American invasion of Grenada. I don’t think they are going to get divorce due to this but one can see how different the views were. Anyway, the debate started, she was kind of pro-western vs me and all of my friends gang up on her. And the topic comes to ‘the roots of Jamaicans, Africa”. There are definitely people like you, conscious about the past, but there was a consensus by all the academicians and me that the trend of Jamaicans looking forward, they are not motivated in general about 'African roots', 'East' as much as Americans. It is reflected on everything from the music, to daily accent. 10 years ago, I was more hearing Jamaican accents, now more people are talking with 'American accent'. Don’t you think these brilliant Jamaican academicians do not represent Jamaica? We are good friends and I have total trust on what they said, not that they are my friend; they are born and raised Jamaicans with great intellectual ability to make observation.
Well, a decade ago, everywhere, there was banjo playing, more reggae, yeah they still exist but now, when go hotels less traditional stuff, and more pop culture, RnB can you imagine now they even have pop, techno playing in places like Quad. And of course dance-hall reggae! More of like fusion of rap, reggae related to 'gang, bling bling kind of hip-hop' culture.
Most things I were witnessing in Jamaica a decade ago, now changed. The radio host has american accent. The attitude, body language are totally changed, I felt like I am in one of the american city dominated by African-Americans. One girl at the bar, describe that 'because of more educated people and more technology' is the reason for 'better' attitude in Jamaican while losing some of the tradition, consciousness about 'Africa'. What a joke.
Even Bennie Man. He used to look more 'rebel' look, now he looks like a car salesman from Texas. I was just watching local commercial for a super.
Everything has changed. Yes, there will be changes with the technology, internet, tv etc. But these developments caused Jamaicans to change their philosophical and ideological in favor of west. Africa is old story in GENERAL while there maybe exception like sista omega. People still talking about Marcus Garvey but less and less. Now it is more about 'westernization'.
In my opinion, people like you are becoming more and more exception, and my take on this topic is more a general trend.
The difficult situation that Jamaica is in. Not only culturally, economically they are dependent west. Their tourism, trade heavily depends on west. Jamaica is usually votes along with US/UK when it comes to UN voting, and sided with west during cold war. Under pressure and influence by particularly US, Jamaica is not for example supporting Palestine issue. Yes, Palestine issue is different from Africa connection, but the following reference would mean countries like Jamaica due to economic, political and strategical situation, they have to be in favor of west.
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The south Pacific effort is being mirrored in the Western Hemisphere by groups like the America Israel Public Afffairs Committee (AIPAC), American Jewish Committee, and Canada Israel Committee for Public Affairs (CIPAC) to influence those uncommitted nations in Central America and the Caribbean, many reliant on tourism from the United States and Canada, to vote "no" on Palestine in the General Assembly. Chief targets for the Jewish groups include quake-devastated Haiti, which is extremely vulnerable to international banking pressure; Jamaica; the Bahamas; Barbados; St. Lucia; Antigua and Barbuda; Grenada; Belize; Panama; Honduras; Guatemala; and Costa Rica. Israel already has a "no" vote from Colombia in its pocket.
Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon lobbied Latin American and Caribbean nations at the recent Organization of American States (OAS) summit in El Salvador to vote "no" on Palestine. Ayalon indicated that Israel can expect "no" votes from Jamaica, Belize, Guyana, Suriname, Panama, Costa Rica, El Salvador and Colombia. Guyana and Suriname recently recognized Palestine's independence within the 1967 borders. Ayalon said he also believes he has secured a "no" vote from Mexico and that Israel may expect a reveral of support for Palestine from a number of Latin American nations that previously recognized Palestine's independence, including Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, and Paraguay.
About places! Typical business trip! Sista you got it all wrong, you need to unlearn your prejudices about me. It was amusing you think you are portraying me as a typical tourist. In Gambia, and in Jamaica, I am very personable, friendly and I am accepted by local people very well. The first I visited sea view garden the old lady who rented a bed and breakfast for a while. A student that time, now a priest is running youth clinic in Tivoli Garden now another place I had a visit.
In summary, I am not denying the existence of conscious people, but ‘the trend’ of Jamaican under influence of ‘wild capitalism, westernization and pop culture is not a myth. It is not something I made up. It is talked, known, concerned by Jamaicans as well.
I know little bid more than you think what I know about Jamaica. I have great respect for Jamaicans and I had never had problem in Jamaica whether I was in Mona Heights, Sea view Garden, Rema or Tivoli Garden. Now let me go to my favorite spot in new Kingston 'sweet wood' jerk joint to have my dinner.
p.s. Smiling Coast of Caribbean is just something to make the topic relevant to Gambia. Nothing more.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 03 Jul 2011 04:57:41 |
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rassimian
United Kingdom
168 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 12:19:17
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| OK you two, Turk and Sister. Both of you are right in some respect of your comments. Although it is not for nothing that Jamaica is known as 'Little Africa' this does not mean that all Jamaicans look to that continent for inspiration. There is a division of thought and concept about which way to go. So it would be true to say that many Jamaicans look to Africa through history via Marcus Garvey and Rastafari but given that Jamaica was an English colony where school history lessons were about 'white history' and a great many migrants ended up in the UK, USA and Canada the western influence cannot be denied.There is no easy answer to the question of which way Jamaica is going because it is the wrong question. The tendency may appear to be towards the West maybe because of its history and proximity to the US but within Jamaica are those who recognise that because of slavery they have an African connection and they want to recognise this fact. Maybe its about an awareness of black history and a return to Africa versus those who see a future in the West and its ideology. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 20:25:41
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Rassimian
As you can get this from my comments that, I am not denying the influence of Africa and those, like omega sister, who are very conscious about the roots and what is happening in the east. However, it was significant angle considering I was in Jamaica a decade ago, now I am seeing different Jamaica. The trend is different. I felt like the direction changed, and that is not only based on observing and my experience, it is also supported by Jamaicans I knew.
Sister
Check this out:
This topic is kind of related...
I guess it is not that a BS and I am not sure if there is any insult in my comments other than sharing some of the Jamaicans thinking...What do you think Sister?
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Most Jamaicans believe UK rule better according to poll
A new poll suggests that most Jamaicans believe the island would be better off under British rule.
Photo: ALAMY
6:55AM BST 30 Jun 2011
The poll of 1,008 Jamaicans for The Gleaner newspaper was conducted over four days by U.S. pollster Bill Johnson. Sixty per cent of those surveyed believed the island would be better off if it had remained a U.K. colony.
Seventeen per cent said the island would be worse off as a British colony and 23 per cent said they did not know. The poll had a margin of error of 4 percentage points.
Jamaica achieved independence from Britain in 1962.
Since then, the island has struggled with high crime, a hefty debt burden and inefficient government.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 03 Jul 2011 20:31:34 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 21:36:45
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In Jamaica, a few things are very clear and obvious.
Jamaicans love music. I take a bus from New Kingston to downtown. As usual there is high volume music and playing some gospel. The bus is full and every passenger are singing this song. It is like natural reaction. Some have like Maria Carey type of high tones. This is another thing I love about Jamaicans having so much pride and confidence for their individuality. My co-workers and I were like talking in front of restaurant for lunch, all have tie, formal dress code. This rasta guy came and interrupted us. I can't imagine this could happen in somewhere else. I mean there is a group of people who look more like professional, executive with the attire and someone poor, who maybe homeless guy and come and start conversation. It is not begging or anything, he just want to have some conversation. That is refreshing change.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 02:04:34
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Turk what about mother Nature, am enjoying your Jamaican escapade but you ain't said nothing am the greenery, How is the flora down there? ..............................Peace |
I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 02:43:37
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Moe
The nature is great in Jamaica. This time I don't have much opportunities but especially East side of Jamaica is paradise. That is actually my favorite spot. South is boring, Kingston is crowded, West and North is too touristic. Kingston has a nice view of Blue Mountains. Jamaica is one of the best spot in the world. If you consider, I would definitively recommend. If you are adventurist, look for cultural experience. Jamaica would be at your top in your list. Last time I climb there, but this time is all about work. The only thing I enjoyed doing here this time is meeting old friends and little bid night life.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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rassimian
United Kingdom
168 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 10:42:29
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| Turk, my point was this. You cannot say Jamaica is moving towards the west rather than east unless you can prove majority of people think this. As I said some look to Africa some to the West. There has always been these different influences. As for the inclusion of the The Gleaner poll- high crime, hefty debt burden and inefficient government, sounds just like the UK now!! Hope you enjoy your stay and soak up the sun. |
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kiwi
Sweden
661 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 15:42:10
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Turk, where is your humor  I thought Moe wanted to know about the other greenery... |
kiwi |
Edited by - kiwi on 04 Jul 2011 15:44:40 |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 15:46:31
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quote:
Originally posted by kiwi
Turk, where is your humor I thought Moe wanted to know about the other greenery...
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 19:25:57
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| Well Kiwi, I just heard Jamaica is pretty green and the plant life is deciduous, with a lot of mountain ranges Thats all folks............................Peace |
I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 20:11:40
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OK Moe,we all believe your clarification,what else could you have meant !  |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 04 Jul 2011 20:12:03 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 20:57:13
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quote:
Originally posted by rassimian
Turk, my point was this. You cannot say Jamaica is moving towards the west rather than east unless you can prove majority of people think this. As I said some look to Africa some to the West. There has always been these different influences. As for the inclusion of the The Gleaner poll- high crime, hefty debt burden and inefficient government, sounds just like the UK now!! Hope you enjoy your stay and soak up the sun.
Rassimian... Yes I can say Jamaica is moving towards the west rather than east as an opinion. This is a debate. This is a social discussion and essence of a social discussion, there may not/have to be a 'clear evidence' but you could have an opinion or wisdom based on observations and pieces of information. And especially 'what I observed before and what I observe now' is a valid base for my take. I may be wrong or right, but that is what I observe. I would expect the counter argument why my observation is wrong .
I enjoyed my stay, Actually I am back home now. Thanks for your comments. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 04 Jul 2011 22:48:20 |
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