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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 12:42:08
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Dembis. Thanks for your response. I can see your point of on religion due to imperialism by Europe and Arabic missionary and Islamic influence on Africa. However, now, currently, religious life in Gambia is very liberal and moderate unlike Nigeria, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. So, if you tell me religion is an obstacle like the ones in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, yes I would agree. I do not see militarist, or radical religious influence in Gambia. So how do you think religion is a bad influence/obstacle in Gambia?
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a leader or a succesful civil servant is the one that loot the government coffers and the most sad thing is they will get praised from their families and friends.
Praising corruption and seeing it as an opportunity and right thing to do. With the statement above you present the best case why corruption is the problem of the society in general. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 20 Apr 2011 13:28:02 |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 20:10:46
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
I am not sure how religion being obstacle. I can understand if the religious fanatism exist in Gambia similar to some Arab states, Pakistan, Afghanistan, but I think liberal, moderate religious Gambian people are the biggest strength of Gambian. I actually admire and Gambia sets example in terms of tolerance in general. Correct me if I am wrong.
Actually, religion is still a very significant obstacle to democracy. In fact, even if all the obstacles we listed are adequately addressed, it will take forever to overcome the challenges religion poses to African democracy.
A huge number of Africans still believe in the "divine rights of rulers," similar to what existed in medieval Europe. These people believe that it is god who choose leaders and only "god's time" can get rid of leaders. They also equates questioning leaders to opposing god's authority.
It is not uncommon to hear Gambian clergy preaching that we should show respect and obedience to leaders even if they behave as badly as ancient pharaohs because these leaders are "god appointed" (yalah moh ko fah tohgal (w), allah leh ya see jeh (m)).
So yes, religion (which usually controls the mind and turns seemingly reasonable people into total wackos) is a huge obstacle democracy.
And like Dembis said, nowadays the most religiously bankrupt politicians often uses religions to hang on to power and reverse any strides towards democracy. However, this is not applicable to Gambia as it usually occur in countries that are not mono-religious.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 20:49:32
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| 10x Prince |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 21:09:12
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This is an over-stretch but I am tempted o think that "black MEN have no honor or shame." How else could you explain the drama of grown person being thrown out of office and humiliated publicly and repeated going back to their prosecutor to prostrate and pray for forgiveness and be willing to loose a limb for the prosecutor???
It is not surprising that these folks were so easily enslaved and subjugated. I know my claim could offend many people but I just had to get this off my chest.
For argument sake, one could say that these people's culture of lacking honor is a huge obstacle to seeing them build a functioning society (democratic or otherwise) anytime soon! |
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toubab1020
12309 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 21:44:54
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| Prince, a bit strong, after all if you and your family are going hungry is it wrong to behave in the way you have outlined,? Africa after all is a hard place to survive and I think this is understandable,a case of ""black MEN have no honor or shame." is harsh.I understand your views but perhaps I am to ready to let people take the easy way out instead of being a martyr to a cause,be it honesty ,truthfulness or whatever. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 23:19:08
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| But prince there are other society where religion exist, but they are relatively successful in establishing state. So how come? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 00:40:38
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
But prince there are other society where religion exist, but they are relatively successful in establishing state. So how come?
Turk, you are probably misunderstanding me. I did not say that religion prevents the building of states. There are several theocracies and a mixtures of theocracy and secular states out there.
What I meant to say is that democracy is incompatible with religion. This is obvious because in most democracies, laws are made and changed to suit the needs of the people living that particular era. For example, in America laws were made to ban slavery, abolish segregation and allow women and minorities to vote. This would be impossible in theocracies, where laws are unchangeable, people must live by inherited laws initiated thousands of years old. People in theocracies had no say in formulating the laws they live by and they cannot challenge these laws.
I was arguing that a people who refuses to frown upon persons lacking honor, shame and integrity cannot build a functioning state. It is very common for black men to congratulate people who got away from breaking the law. Criminals are commended for "bouncing back." |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 00:45:27
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quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
Prince, a bit strong, after all if you and your family are going hungry is it wrong to behave in the way you have outlined,? Africa after all is a hard place to survive and I think this is understandable,a case of ""black MEN have no honor or shame." is harsh.I understand your views but perhaps I am to ready to let people take the easy way out instead of being a martyr to a cause,be it honesty ,truthfulness or whatever.
Toubab, I just get riled up sometimes... you are probably right. The need for survival reign supreme all the time and at all cost. Even if that means congratulating dishonorably men who steal mosquito nets meant for babies or malaria pills meant for pregnant women. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 00:47:36
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Looks like the answer is secularism. In general I may agree with your democracy/religion argument, but I want to focus on Gambia. Can you relate the impact of not incompatible with religion in Gambian context?
I agree about your last paragraph in general, but I am not sure if you can associate this with particular racial characteristics. I could say that sometime honor could be luxury for poorer people!!!! When you hungry, you steal bread even you know that is not honorable.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 21 Apr 2011 00:49:54 |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 10:33:53
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Turk, I assume that you did not just ask the question of identifying the problems in Gambia without providing a possible solution out of some of the problems that can be solved.
If you just wanted to divert the blame game on Jammeh and some politicians then you can easily achieve that...
First we have identified that there is poverty in Gambia caused by lack of economic growth.
Second, there is corruption mainly because of no fewer jobs, lower pay or lack of access to mechanize agriculture.
Third, there is lack of civic education and political awareness because of lack of access to education, and government programs to educate the population
fourth, there is lack of access to decent healthcare, transportation, shelter, adequate food supply etc.
Fifth, there is high level of dependency on the few again because of all the above mentioned.
Now let's stop counting for now and try to address the major causes of the points outlined above.
Fundamentally, the problem lies on the state's inability to create avenues for citizens to access a mechanize form of agriculture where they can produce their own food supplies.
Second, because of lack of knowledge and understanding on how to govern the government cannot come up with policies to create jobs where citizens will have decent jobs that pays decent wages for Gambian standards.
Allow me to tell you a few things that I think the Gambia government can start implementing today to put the country on the path to wealth creation. If anybody tell you there are no resources in Gambia, they are either ignorant of what resources are needed or simply only looks at oil as a resource.
Gambia has fertile land from Banjul to Koina. Whatever you plant on this fertile land it will grow. The problem is we rely on the natural monsoon rains that comes three or four months year and sometimes it barely comes. There is plenty of water throughout the Gambia that can be used all year round for irrigation, upland rice growing etc.
There are plenty fish in the Gambia where the government can either lead in creating factories to process fish, vegetables and fruits or allow citizens the opportunity to invest and lead these factories. Government basically have no clear investment strategies...
There are plenty livestocks, across the country that should not only be able to process meat, but wools , leader etc and export.... There are vitually no government or private sector strategies that will encourage this...
Turk, in Gambia pretty much everything is done at a subsistence level. The ultimately has the responsibility to create policies and standards that citizens will follow...
Europe the US and parts of Asia did not get to where they are now without government intervention. The marshall plan for Europe after world war 11, the construction of high ways and bridges in the United States were led by government.
So in essense government is the cornerstone of everything... if you don't have the right leadership and technocrats in place, the society will continue to go down and all the problems of the world will be compound....
Now how about this without mentioning Jammeh or Sallah or Darboe???
This is why some of us sees Gambia above and beyond any single individual...
Now please from what you know how do you think the poverty situation in Gambia can be addressed??? Turk please note this is all not talk it is real and can one day be used by someone.....
Thanks |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 11:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
Looks like the answer is secularism. In general I may agree with your democracy/religion argument, but I want to focus on Gambia. Can you relate the impact of not incompatible with religion in Gambian context?
I agree about your last paragraph in general, but I am not sure if you can associate this with particular racial characteristics. I could say that sometime honor could be luxury for poorer people!!!! When you hungry, you steal bread even you know that is not honorable.
REFER RELATED BANTABA GAMBIAN POLITICS TOPIC Religion in Politics can be more DANGEROUS? UNDER http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10691 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 11:44:18
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RELATED BANTABA TOPIC
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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dembis
Sweden
71 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 12:22:32
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| Am not going to talk about religion more but just to let you know my own side of the story. Karl marx said religion is like a opium to the people , do not let them be addicted to it. Am not a good fan of communism but sadly when ever i went to gambia thats the time i know it make some sense.Social gatering and religion gathering are so mixup that you hardly cant know whats going on exactly and for one purposed.One of the main problem in gambia is 1 out of 10 gambians dont know what they are doing even though they go to work every day. To me it seems nobody is good at what you doing and example is the president. Imaging my grandma would never vote for pdois because she thought this people dont dressed well with the `garamubas` and have the little image of corruption. She would never listened to them or care about what they are fight for. Half of the voters in gambia are the same level like her. Gambian women are the most unattractive and illetrate when it comes to politics and even religion. Date a gambian girl and you will see what i mean. They will just take a seat and expect you to do all the talk and them drinking the cocacola bottle and holding it like is there date. During Jawaras 30 years of rule the voting age was 21 years of age and it was mostly jawara that would win because old people loves him. Almost 90 percent of the women like him for one reason corruption and their boyfriends and husbands or family members are in the team. Young men never like him but they will not vote because they cant see any difference and formost they are out numbered.The voter apathy the politicians are talking about now is date back to this good old days.Turk we still dont think women are very important in our society or we ignored the effects they could do rather invest in the looks to enjoyed it.Before the imperialist came senegambian women were outstanding in our social , economics and political structures. All our jollof kings and queens have the surnames of their mothers and we know women were very influencial at that time.When the colonialist came they thought us how to oppressed women and make them inferior to men. When we started enjoying the previleges thats the time we just dont even care what else it could be. My grandma was not allowed to go to school because she was a women and all her brothers go to school and became well educated.Girls free education in gambia is one of the only best the government is doing and i give them credit for it even though they have long way to go. You are listening to me and it feels so good because if i said this in gambia they will think i dont believed in god i came from europe which automatically make me `nasaran`. Gambians and africans in general like mystics and myhts , they would rather listen to foreigners than one of them. this are the only people on earth that you will tell god is in the sky and they will spent the hole of their lifes looking up in the heavens. I will say to my fellow africans stop looking at the east and west, and start seeing the nature of your surroundings and get the best out of it. |
dembis |
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toubab1020
12309 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 12:33:06
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I understand totally and I agree completely with what you write here,bantaba is a discussion,the truth sometimes hurts,here in the west we have been conditioned perhaps too much by social engineering by concerned governments into making excuses for the actions and lifestyles of people,a whole industry of social workers has grown up to feed this social engineering monster.What you have written has made me realise that freedom of thought and speech should not be curtailed by social engineering by administrations.
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Originally posted by Prince
quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
Prince, a bit strong, after all if you and your family are going
Prince,
hungry is it wrong to behave in the way you have outlined,? Africa after all is a hard place to survive and I think this is understandable,a case of ""black MEN have no honor or shame." is harsh.I understand your views but perhaps I am to ready to let people take the easy way out instead of being a martyr to a cause,be it honesty ,truthfulness or whatever.
Toubab, I just get riled up sometimes... you are probably right. The need for survival reign supreme all the time and at all cost. Even if that means congratulating dishonorably men who steal mosquito nets meant for babies or malaria pills meant for pregnant women.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 21 Apr 2011 12:34:20 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 12:53:37
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Dbaldeh
I think your points and also Janko's topic are good starters for economic situation in Gambia. Great contribution. I think we all agree is that lack of wealth, poverty are one of the most important obstacle for Gambians to move forward and establish the nation.
About excluding Jammeh and blame game. My objective of this topic was to examine the reasons other than Jammeh. I am not denying the lack of leadership of current regime at all. I wanted to have a discussion from the contributions from the angle of sociology without political rhetoric. I wanted to understand the structured issues related to social, economic and cultural issues. I wanted to have opportunity to provide a discussion about self-criticism. The key word is "We". At the end of the discussion we should be able to identify the social, economic, cultural obstacles for creating a successful nation.
I have similar view Dbaldeh. My mother has a garden, she is like in 60s. Can you believe that her garden she has tomato, pepper, okra, zucchini, parsley, onion, strawberry, green beens all kind of vegetables. So why Gambians do not take advantage this. I was travelling to Basse last February, I again noticed, some Chinese agricultural workers. Do you think Gambians are missing 'know-how' when it comes to agriculture.
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Now please from what you know how do you think the poverty situation in Gambia can be addressed??? Turk please note this is all not talk it is real and can one day be used by someone.....
I don't have any answer to this. However, Gambia is one of the poorest nation of the world and it is not easy to break this cycle. Gambia is not going to be able to solve this problem in short term. I do not see any significant changes in next 20 years. I am hoping some discussion come out from this topic. Janko's topic actually is a good starter.
At the same time, I think, currently there is economic development going on. Peace and stability make the economic development in much faster pace. I was in Sierra Leone. After all the civil war, now they have peace, I can see how people appreciate the peace and stability and focus on economic development. I say 'stability and peace' is the key for economic development.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 21 Apr 2011 13:23:09 |
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