 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
toubab1020
12309 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 12:59:17
|
| Well you have got your audience now turk and with all the flowery blossoming language that you have written in your last post plenty for posters on this topic to feed on and produce more political honey. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
 |
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 13:10:52
|
Dembis
I agree with some of the things you said. Imagine we have 40s percent literacy rate for general and for women, literacy rate is going 30 percent and less. I think this is the one of the most important obstacles. Lack of education means, people can not be part of political process. They will not understand the issues, they will not be able to be aware about political issues. And most important they will not be part of political process. If there is no participation from the masses, only small percentage of people will monopolize the politics. So who monopolize the politics.
1. Men
2. Educated Elite
3. Military
I think the original issue you raised here lack of education, human capital, I would like to add as a result of lack of educated population, Gambia political participation and political process only control by specific groups.
OK. So far we have
Religion
Culture
Social Attitude
Poverty
Economic Underdevelopment
Illiteracy, Uneducated population, Isolation of women, Lack of Human Capital
Elitism, monopolization of politics
How about other subjects
Tribalism. We had many discussion on this topic.
How about the impacts of colonization. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 13:29:53
|
quote:
I will say to my fellow africans stop looking at the east and west, and start seeing the nature of your surroundings and get the best out of it.
Are you saying, Gambians should focus on their own values and models rather than outside influences. And outside influence makes Gambians confused. For example, if 'western democracy' does not fit Gambia. Or 'Arabic influence negatively have impact the society? Are you talking about 'pop culture' influence on people. Or Rastafarian, Jamaican popular reggae culture? Hip hop culture from US, bling bling, gang culture?
One could have argument to develop own models and replicate the western democracy in Gambia. Or other models as government model. Is government model obstacles for Gambia as well. Would parliamentary system is more fit?
Are you referring Janko's education national language debate? So, no country can be isolated from other cultures, political influences. So what is the criteria to look at east/west, or to turn to self? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 21 Apr 2011 14:01:48 |
|
|
|
Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 21:16:14
|
quote:
Elitism, monopolization of politics
It is very hard too see how this is an obstacle to statehood. Every single state that has developed did so by basically excluding illiterates and peasants from making crucial decisions for the state.
If fact, including "poor people" (like it is currently happening in most of Western Europe and America) weakens the state. These people creates a bunch of lazy liberals who do not work and are only interested in a "nanny state" to support their lazy behavior.
The "new democracy" of on post WWI, in which every person's vote weighs equally should be revisited. In traditional Africa, people who cannot raise families or acquire property by virtue of their laziness are generally not allowed to opine at "bantabas."
This is why I somehow agree with you that Western democracy, as is currently practice, it not suitable for most African countries. But then, we also don't need governments that tries to forcefully tell us how to run our farms. |
|
|
|
dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 21:49:15
|
" My mother has a garden, she is like in 60s. Can you believe that her garden she has tomato, pepper, okra, zucchini, parsley, onion, strawberry, green beens all kind of vegetables. So why Gambians do not take advantage this. I was travelling to Basse last February, I again noticed, some Chinese agricultural workers.
Turk,
Do you think Gambians are missing 'know-how' when it comes to agriculture".
Turk, precisely... lack of technical know-how in agriculture, management, accounting, engineering, etc is one of the major problems Gambia faces.
Take agriculture for example, majority of poor Gambians are farmers and yet there is not a single institution that teaches the local people how to move from subsistence agriculture to mechanize or commerical agriculture... There have been some institutions in the past like the RDI.(Rural development Institute) located in Jarra. But this institution lacks funding, it only teaches people who have formal Western education..
If Gambia were to have numerous institutions at the local level that teaches Gambian women and men how to do mechanize farming, they will be able to uplift their own standard of living and thereby educate their children...
I have a case example I want to refer you to on a story carried by Gainako.com a while back. It was on a local woman with no formal Western education who was given an opportunity to start a Poultry farm with barely 5 chickens... with the assistance of a US based Nonprofit organization called thegambiaHelp... please check story below:
http://www.gainako.com/news/news/2009/11/28/us-philanthropist-makes-incredible-impact-on-women-and-childrens-lives-in-west-africa-as-gambiahelps-fundraising--dinner-collects-1500000-us-dollars.html
This poor woman from Dankunku turned a 5 chicken poultry farm into 400 chickens now producing eggs, meat and supporting the whole region. She serves on an agricultural board as a result of her success story...
Now can you imagine creating hundreds or thousands of Fatou Fatty's?
Seondly, the Gambia has one technical institution the GTTI which trains carpenters, engineers, accountants, electricians etc. Imagine if we have hundreds of these institutions?
Turk, the most viable solution to poverty and nation development is practical education and skillful workers...
For the most part our people are sent to study overseas only to come back with masters degrees without the technical know-how... This is what is killing our society and I happen to believe that there is a remedy to this...
Again, this is where government comes in and lay down the foundation to self sustainability.... More to come on this topic... |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 00:50:36
|
Dbaldeh
Good contribution. Also, there is no planning for the skills training. Everyone I talked to, in Gambia want to study/work in IT. There isn't that much potential in IT sector but people do not know where the skills shortages are.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 22 Apr 2011 06:38:12 |
|
|
|
dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 08:06:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by turk
Dbaldeh
Good contribution. Also, there is no planning for the skills training. Everyone I talked to, in Gambia want to study/work in IT. There isn't that much potential in IT sector but people do not know where the skills shortages are.
Turk I guess you shouldn't be surprise that every Gambian you talk to wants to study IT. Gambia like any other country is going through some evolution.
In the early 90s everyone pretty much in the US wanted to study IT because that is where the immediate potentials were until off course the dot.com burst...
So it is the samething young Gambians are going through... Am not surprise about that at all.. I would rather have them study IT than nothing...
Lot on the topic later.... |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 10:28:21
|
| Yeah. But there is a need for human capital body that would guide youth. If you know about IT burst, if I know, they should know and guide youth. Right. But, again, lack of resources for government service. It is like catch 22. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 19:09:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by turk
Yeah. But there is a need for human capital body that would guide youth. If you know about IT burst, if I know, they should know and guide youth. Right. But, again, lack of resources for government service. It is like catch 22.
Turk, you keep beating on this drum "lack of resources for government service". There are no lack of resources in Gambia unless you mean OIL and OPIUM!!!!
I have mentioned clearly that we have abundance of resources in Gambia including human capital. What we need is a sound government that can put in place the policies to explore those resources and put them into good use for the people!!!
Gambia does not need a trillion dollar budget to start putting in real economic policies that curtail our low standard of living... you can have running water and electricity everywhere in the Gambia.
Even if we were to have oil, if you don't utilize the oil appropriately, our people will continue to be poor like we have in Gabon, Nigeria and other polices. Gov't need to turn those resources into consumable goods and services for the people...
I do not want to hear again for the last time that there are no resources in Gambia because that is a lazy way of confronting the problems...
Now how do government officials like the President manage to get rich while the rest of the country continue to be poor? Please don't get me into bashing Jammeh cuz I hate to go that route....
Have a great weekend |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 19:23:59
|
Dbaldeh
I am beating the drum because I am stating the fact. Gambia is poor country. Unless you are claiming that all the economic statistics GDP, GDP per capita, HDI statistics are not facts. I agree with the inefficiency of current government, but I am not going to accept the fact that the political solution will make significant changes in the short term.
Electricity? How? Gambia can not produce electricity with the lower prices. There is no hydro-electrical energy resources, no investement for wind, solar energy, no nuclear power. The electricity production is the most costly in the world. Gambia can not be industrial nation. It is impossible. An industrial production of anything will be more expensive than anywhere. They use fuel based production which is the most expensive.
It is not lazy way, it is stating the fact. Sorry I am not going to picture rosy picture. I am just being more realistic rather than politician to promise everything without telling us 'how'. I like realistic view, solutions rather than the political dude who promise everything without backing up, how.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 22 Apr 2011 19:27:06 |
|
|
|
dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 21:59:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by turk
Dbaldeh
I am beating the drum because I am stating the fact. Gambia is poor country. Unless you are claiming that all the economic statistics GDP, GDP per capita, HDI statistics are not facts. I agree with the inefficiency of current government, but I am not going to accept the fact that the political solution will make significant changes in the short term.
Electricity? How? Gambia can not produce electricity with the lower prices. There is no hydro-electrical energy resources, no investement for wind, solar energy, no nuclear power. The electricity production is the most costly in the world. Gambia can not be industrial nation. It is impossible. An industrial production of anything will be more expensive than anywhere. They use fuel based production which is the most expensive.
It is not lazy way, it is stating the fact. Sorry I am not going to picture rosy picture. I am just being more realistic rather than politician to promise everything without telling us 'how'. I like realistic view, solutions rather than the political dude who promise everything without backing up, how.
Turk please... you may be entitle to your facts but that doesn't make them facts for the Gambia!!!
Electricity??? Yes, a Single adequate powerful generator can supply power to the entire country. We are talking about a population of 1.5 - 1.7 million people with 11,000 Square kms?
Off course you cannot have these without an investment as you rightly admitted...
Talking about solar energy and Wind... We have sunshine 12 months year round. Solar energy should be the cheapest in Gambia. Are you kidding me right?
[i]
"Gambia cannot be an industrial nation" where is this coming from??? if other nations like Chile can be industralized why not Gambia? This is a stereo typical mindset to put it best...
Turk, I refused for anyone to think that what the rest of world did we cannot do... it might take us longer but that is simply and ignorant way of looking at a nation.
Gambia can literally put a fence below its sky if we have the right leadership.... call me optimistic if you may... but don't attempt to call to question the competence of a society while there is ample evidence that it has been done around the world who never had dams for electricity, they never had nuclear energy nor did they have Wind and solar investment before.. Leaders simply had to rally around and get it done...
Yes, we can in Gambia... it is not a fact that it cannot be done.. may be your own facts... |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 22:33:37
|
Dbaldeh
It is not my facts. It is the facts of Worldbank, IMF, UN. Sorry I think they are more credible with the statistics. Please provide me some statistics proving what I am saying wrong. However, don't make me embarrass you posting all of these statistics. I am very good with statistics and research. IT IS A FACT. GAMBIA IS ONE OF THE 30 POOREST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.
Gambia, The
Afghanistan
Bangladesh
Zimbabwe
Guinea-Bissau
Nepal
Burkina Faso
Mozambique
Rwanda
Tanzania
Timor-Leste
Togo
Uganda
Eritrea
Central African Republic
Ethiopia
Guinea
Madagascar
Niger
Sierra Leone
Liberia
Malawi
Congo, Democratic Republic of the
Somalia
Burundi
And in near future it has no chance to be an industrial nation.
Dbaldeh, the question is not whether single or multiple resources for electrical production. It is about the 'COST'. Electricity is the most important industrial output, and if it is expensive, you are losing in the competitiveness. The power production in Gambia is one of the most expensive. Gambia is paying the highest price for electricity production that is the main obstacle and reason for Gambia not becoming a industrial nation. Gambia IS NOT, AND WILL NOT BE AN INDUSTRIAL NATION NEAR FUTURE. The only option is service industry and agriculture.
Solar energy. You need to check your facts. I am not kidding. Solar energy while it is cheaper for household use. It is good for simple use for like cooking, lights. It is not usable for business usage. Solar energy is not practical for industrial complex It is too expensive for industrial complex to opt for solar energy.
Dbaldeh, you are not very familiar with the world, nations and international economy, i guess. Chile is the worst example one could give. Chile is the one of the most developed nation in south america due to its rich natural resources, mining. Mine is the main export goods. Gambia has no known natural resources and mine. Nothing. Nada.Zilch.
Stereotype. I am really tired of these baseless stereotype charges. There is not stereotype. These are the facts. Gambia does not have any natural resources. THIS IS A FACT. Everyone knows that. How is it stereotype? If Gambia does not have any energy production, how is it going to be a industrial nation? There is no university in Gambia which capable of any industrial research yet. I am not saying it is impossible. However, it is not realistic any near future. It has nothing to do with ignorance, it has a lot to do with the facts and based on social and economic realities.
MY FACTS ARE UNIVERSAL. Look like you have very unrealistic and rosy picture and some bias. Sorry dbaldeh.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 23 Apr 2011 14:36:32 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 14:23:22
|
Electricity consumption per capita countries before gambia:
Gaza Strip
Chad
Cambodia
Burundi
Rwanda
Comoros
Central African Republic
Afghanistan
Montenegro
Somalia
Tanzania
Niger
Ethiopia
Guinea-Bissau
Burkina Faso
Haiti
Sierra Leone
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Madagascar
Uganda
Mali
Benin
Nepal
Burma
Mauritania
Cape Verde
Kiribati
Guinea
The Gambia
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 14:31:26
|
There are number of study of the cost of electrical production by different methods:
Solar energy requires a lots of investment and only a few countries USA, Australia, Germany have serious number of producing power based on the solar. So Gambia's solar energy production is just a DREAM WHEN SMOKE GOOD GANJA.
Energy source Costs of electricity production in euros per megawatt hour
Nuclear Energy 107.0 – 124.0
Brown Coal 88.0 – 97.0
Black Coal 104.0 – 107.0
Domestic Gas 106.0 – 118.0
Wind Energy Onshore 49.7 – 96.1
Wind Energy Offshore 35.0 – 150.0
Hydropower 34.7 – 126.7
Biomass 77.1 – 115.5
Solar Electricity 284.3 – 391.4
Another study
Advanced Nuclear 67
Coal 74-88
Gas 313-346
Geothermal 67
Hydro power 48-86
Wind power 60
Solar 116-312
Biomass 47-117
Fuel Cell 86-111
Wave Power 611 |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 23 Apr 2011 14:47:17 |
|
|
|
turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 14:54:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Prince
quote:
Elitism, monopolization of politics
It is very hard too see how this is an obstacle to statehood. Every single state that has developed did so by basically excluding illiterates and peasants from making crucial decisions for the state.
If fact, including "poor people" (like it is currently happening in most of Western Europe and America) weakens the state. These people creates a bunch of lazy liberals who do not work and are only interested in a "nanny state" to support their lazy behavior.
The "new democracy" of on post WWI, in which every person's vote weighs equally should be revisited. In traditional Africa, people who cannot raise families or acquire property by virtue of their laziness are generally not allowed to opine at "bantabas."
This is why I somehow agree with you that Western democracy, as is currently practice, it not suitable for most African countries. But then, we also don't need governments that tries to forcefully tell us how to run our farms.
There are always elites and they have more influence in the society The impact of elitism situation could be different in different countries. For example, western world, there is a larger middle class, professionals, artists, sportsman, musicians; intellectuals have opportunity to be part of elite. Elites are more diverse from different background and more open. There are checks and balances in the society and the power of different social groups are balanced. For example, Ottoman Empire, in old times, the elite was military/land owner, however traders, artists, academics intellectuals were always secondary. After the establishing the republic, business class, business, professionals, academicians, technocrats becoming part of elite which became more diverse.
In Gambia on the other hand, the elite, rich Africans, wealthy Lebanese/Indians more recently i.e. lawyers are less heterogeneous and more marginalized.
However, I may agree your theory, during the initial state building, there may be small groups could take the lead and power as we can see i.e. Soviet Revolution, French Revolution, Japanese enlightenment, Young Turks. Obviously, there is a risk the society could turn oligarchy, aristocracy, plutocracy which is as bad as theocratic state. Don’t you think oligarchy, plutocracy and corporate fascism are as bad as theocracy?
I disagree about your idea of unequal vote. It is not realistic. It is unfair. It is dangerous to divide society. Elites, rich may have the equal vote for poor but they have different means to influence the politics and power in the society. Yes, Oprah's vote is equal to me once every 5 years, but she has much more influence on politics than me. Elite's vote is equal to poor/illiterate but they have a more influence on decision making process. Decision making process is not only about election and voting. For example, in USA, based on lobby system, mostly time rich, corporation have influence the legislation and the law coming to the congress. So if one is more educated, powerful while their vote is equal to illiterate but they have more influence in the political process via participation, advocacy and lobbying.
I can see how you are ultra-fiscal-liberal based on your previous postings, but I think you fail to see the concept like 'income-redistribution, social justice, social investments. But, that is another topic.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
© 2005-2024 Nijii |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
