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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 22:18:22
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Can we have a debate of the issues and obstacles exist in Gambia to establish functioning government. We already have many contributions relating that that the failure of state is totally due to Jammeh. I am more interested social, economic, cultural, historical, social-psychological obstacles.
- Is Gambia too poor to create functioning state?
- Lack of educated population is main obstacle for having right human capital?
- Western Democracy does not fit Gambia.
- Tribes
What else?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 19 Apr 2011 00:54:35 |
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toubab1020
12309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 12:29:49
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OK Turk away You go,I doubt if the politicos will start it themselves,it's more like, you post it we MAY reply.Me ? Errrrrrrr......... No don't know enough about the technicalities,I only know simple is good and bad is bad etc. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 19 Apr 2011 12:30:25 |
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 18:53:27
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YES YES YES,
Bro turks now you are being Gambian for real.You see I never thought you could come up with such wounderful though I knew you must be of great pottentials that I could learn from.
But you constant siding with the evil spirit Jammeh has blinded me of what contribution you could make toward nation building.
My appologies please!
You these could make a book for there is a lot to be digested into it! |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 18:56:48
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Janyanfara
quote:
But you constant siding with the evil spirit Jammeh has blinded me of what contribution you could make toward nation building
You misunderstood. I do not support Jammeh. I do not think there is any other alternative to Jammeh. And I do not think his lack of skills it the major reason for the failing state in Gambia. I believe the problem is wide spread, social, economics, historical.
We have done enough Jammeh bashing. Let us focus on other obstacles. Let us think for a moment, if Jammeh does not exist. I am hoping you don't think Jammeh is the ONLY obstacle for Gambia. Do you? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 19 Apr 2011 21:19:52 |
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toubab1020
12309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 18:59:05
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"I doubt if the politicos will start it themselves,it's more like, you post it we MAY reply."
OK , ONE reply received, but, expansion? no,additions ?,no,further ideas ?,no,debate ? not really 
Come on Boys, post your own ideas and stuff, don't keep making turk do it all !! |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 19 Apr 2011 19:00:36 |
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sab
United Kingdom
912 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 19:25:42
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Turk, the very best place for your debate would be an appointment with Halifa Sallah the Director of People Centre for Social Science and Research, Civic Awareness and Community Initiative - Bundung.
I of course would love to be the fly on the wall with your head to head..
quote:
What else
Trade Unions
If you missed it...
http://allafrica.com/stories/200908200864.html
Interesting
http://gambiawatchdog.yolasite.com/
Scroll for Halifa on Social Reform, Democracy and Crisis in Africa
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The world would be a poorer place if it was peopled by children whose parents risked nothing in the cause of social justice, for fear of personal loss. (Joe Slovo - African revolutionary) |
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toubab1020
12309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 20:16:42
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No input yourself then SAB ? Well that's TWO.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 19 Apr 2011 20:17:57 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 20:36:43
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Sab
Thanks. I actually read that before and I like it. Thanks for posting. I think his work is very valuable. I will add my two dalasi later on.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 22:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
Can we have a debate of the issues and obstacles exist in Gambia to establish functioning government. We already have many contributions relating that that the failure of state is totally due to Jammeh. I am more interested social, economic, cultural, historical, social-psychological obstacles.
- Is Gambia too poor to create functioning state?
- Lack of educated population is main obstacle for having right human capital?
- Western Democracy does not fit Gambia.
- Tribes
What else?
- Religion
- Culture
- (mind set). |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 22:31:59
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
Can we have a debate of the issues and obstacles exist in Gambia to establish functioning government. We already have many contributions relating that that the failure of state is totally due to Jammeh. I am more interested social, economic, cultural, historical, social-psychological obstacles.
- Is Gambia too poor to create functioning state?
- Lack of educated population is main obstacle for having right human capital?
- Western Democracy does not fit Gambia.
- Tribes
What else?
Turk, you raised some excellent questions that needs a wider debate. Many people just stops at pointing fingers at Jammeh rightly or wrongly.
I want to write so much on this subject but time will not allow me right now; so for now I only want to touch on few things.
I think Gambia's problems are far bigger than Jammeh and his administration. Off course his lack of leadership skills has compounded the problem to an even bigger one.
Fundamentally, there is something socially wrong with the mindset of the Gambian civil servant, police force, military and religious leaders. People often differentiate between their personal interest and that of the state. Many closer to Jammeh are worst than him because they don't have the interest of the state at heart. Instead, they are out to grab as much as possible to better themselves and their families...
Many are dishonest and will not tell Jammeh what he don't want to hear. Corruption in embedded in the blood of many and they don't undrestand what it means to have collective prosperity... This was the same problem we had during the PPP regime... Corruption from the police office to the civil servant...
Secondly, religious leaders who are supposed to hold the moral vatue of the state acts as hypocrits receiving money and begging Jammeh for his ills.
There is moral bankruptcy in many quarters in Gambia. I am Gambian and I will never belittle my people... but people will suck you and the state dry within a blink of an eye. There is no moral sense of right and wrong when it comes to dealing with state resources. The ones who can loot the most are the luckiest and most brave!!!
Having said all that Turk, you will agree with me that the leader of any nation sets the tone, leads by example and not do as I say but not as I do. This is Jammeh's fundamental problem.
He had the perfect opportunity to turn things around for Gambia and its people when he came to power preaching accountability, transparency and probity... what did he end up doing??? being the biggest looter and a President who wants to control all and sundry. How do you expect his followers to do? Loot, corrupt or what???
On resources we have plenty to uplift our country... will touch more on that... for now got an interview to attain to!!! |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 23:15:46
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quote:
I think Gambia's problems are far bigger than Jammeh and his administration. Off course his lack of leadership skills has compounded the problem to an even bigger one.......Having said all that Turk, you will agree with me that the leader of any nation sets the tone, leads by example and not do as I say but not as I do. This is Jammeh's fundamental problem.
Dbaldah. You could not resist to scape-goat the man, could not you. :)
The purpose of this topic to discuss about the obstacles for successful Gambian state. Jammeh should be excluded from this discussion. I just want to relate to social, economic, cultural, historical, socio-psychological reasons for the shortcomings. As you point, leaders have contribution, but for the sake of having less political rhetoric and honest, sincere discussion, and perhaps honest self-criticism about Gambian; may present us different perspective.
Religion (You add religious leaders, perhaps abuse of religious positions)
Culture
Mindset (You agree on this)
And leadership is general as well. We don't have only Jammeh as a leader of Gambian society. Failure of opposition leaders as well could contribute to the problem. But as a rule of this discussion, we will not include neither Sallah, nor Darboe. No names here. We could include leadership in general as a failure. Right? What about other leaders, alkalis, imams, priests, union leaders, football team captains, the president of fishermen association. Aren't they obstacle as well?
And you pointed important issue below.
quote:
Many are dishonest and will not tell Jammeh what he don't want to hear. Corruption in embedded in the blood of many and they don't undrestand what it means to have collective prosperity... This was the same problem we had during the PPP regime... Corruption from the police office to the civil servant..
That means the problem is more than specific personalities. Let us have some logic here.
If Gambians are corrupt. Leader is Gambian. Therefore the leader will be corrupt too.
Right? So corruption is more than Mr.A or Mr.B. If corruption existed before, exist now. It is most likely will exist tomorrow too regardless of the leaders.
So why people are corrupt. I don't think, this is about DNA. No one was born as criminal. Right? It may be about economy. Do you really expect the police officer who gets 2000 dalasi not to corrupt? I don't think so. So, based on this, without economic development, the corruption could never go away, or reduced. I am just brainstorming here.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 19 Apr 2011 23:18:08 |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 00:34:59
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Turk, as much as you orginated the topic, you cannot dictate the terms of the debate unless you are grading the papers. In other words you cannot discuss social, political and economic issues without mentioning political leaders.
And point of correction, it is inaccurate to say that Gambians are corrupt... it is simply too general. We know for certain there are civil servants who are as honest as they come.. so to use one brush on everybody would be unfair.
At the same times, you cannot solve Gambia's major problems without addressing the issue of failed leadership. In fact, most of Africa's problems are as a result of failed political leaders. Be it Jammeh, Jawara, Mugabe or what not???
It is the responsibility of government to formulate policies and laws that would guide the conduct of society. It all starts with the leadership and for now Jammeh is at the helm of the problem.
Now in addressing the corruption issue, imagine if Jammeh has come out and declared all his assets from the onset of his presidency, establish an independent judiciary system where cases of corruption are dealt with fairly and squarely... basically wage a war against corruption by first being the first to be corruption free...
This will set the tone for the leadership and it will flow down to rest of the population...
Now how do you expect the ministers serving under this President or any president to not abuse their office if on a daily basis they see people close to president getting away with real open corruption?
Gambia like any other African country's social problems are largely due to government policies, and lack of institutions to account for social ills like the drug trafficking, bribery etc.
We know that what the President earns cannot amount to giving millions of dollars to groups or to his family. Now to answer your question, how do I expect a police officer who earns D2000 be not corrupt? Well, take it from the President and you will see the path.
Gambian people are some of the most intelligent and they can compete in any society and professional field. The women are the amongst the bravest ever... We just need the right leadership to put in the right policies and then we will be on our way to confronting the common ills of society like any other....
The seed will have to be planted by the political leadership... |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 01:28:00
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dbaldeh
That is fundamental difference between you and me/others. I do not believe the problem of Gambia is mainly, due to Jammeh and other politicians. Yes, they do contribute but there are other obstacles that are more important.
The reason I am really specific not to discuss the politicians and particularly Jammeh. It is because, that is all what we do it here. Blame everything on Jammeh. Let us see from different angle. I think one of the biggest problem in Gambia, and I can only see a few i.e. Mansa, shaka and a few others use the word 'we'. Especially diaspora, they are not living in Gambia, it looks like they also think they are not part of the problem. It is time to look at the mirror and provide self criticism about Gambians as society.
We also need to recognize the difficulties Gambian overcome. The difficulties that are fault of nobody but the difficulties exist. For example, it is not easy to established a state in a country which just got independence 40 years ago. That is not Jammeh's fault, this is not Gambians' fault. That is just the situation which makes everything much more difficult.
You see your last post, you still pointing the politician, Jammeh. I disagree on this. First of all, Jammeh is the product of the Gambian society. He did not come from Mars. Yes, I would like to exclude the personalities and focus on more society, economic reasons, culture, history. It does not mean Jammeh has no responsibility, but we have hundreds of topics blaming Jammeh for everything wrong in Gambia.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 03:33:33
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quote:
And point of correction, it is inaccurate to say that Gambians are corrupt... it is simply too general. We know for certain there are civil servants who are as honest as they come.. so to use one brush on everybody would be unfair.
Corruption is the problem of society. I reject to put the whole responsibility on Jammeh or politicians for the corruption. They are part of the society as well. If it is not one, someone else will do it. The economic circumstances is the main reason for corruption. Let me repeat, corruption in Gambia is NOT nature of the people, it is reality of society due to very difficult living situation. I ask address in Gambia, I was being asked to pay. Whenever I do any business with government, I am asked to pay. I even have to bribe my relatives. I have relatives who have children and they had never had a permanent job in their life. I have a civil servant relatives, they have 5000 to home and taking care of huge family and they pay rent. There is no easy solution for poverty. Economic difficulties are the biggest obstacle for government. Government needs civil servants to function their job properly. The judges have to make decision without thinking their ability to take care of their families. The teachers must teach, be idealistic to students without worrying about money. So poverty and economic underdevelopment is the biggest obstacle to establish the state that functions. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 20 Apr 2011 03:44:58 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 03:47:35
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| I am not sure how religion being obstacle. I can understand if the religious fanatism exist in Gambia similar to some Arab states, Pakistan, Afghanistan, but I think liberal, moderate religious Gambian people are the biggest strength of Gambian. I actually admire and Gambia sets example in terms of tolerance in general. Correct me if I am wrong. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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dembis
Sweden
71 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 11:37:40
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| Mr turk you raise a topic that is not easy to ignored. Religion is the biggest problem of africans and not only them but the whole world. one wrong thing to do is to force some body a thing he or she would never understand. The Abrahamiam religion is writing in a way and most sofisticated way with its millions metafors that you can never understand it. Even if you come from Arabia or jerusalem you find it not that easy to read it. Learning new language and understanding its meaning, is always difficult. The Arabs and the Europeans came to africa because for one or two reason, and that is they were hungry and they need a allied. This people are big rascist and they would never change and the evidenced is still around to show. Remember the spanish pope that gave the order to the spanish monark to go to africa and enslaved the blacks and replace them with the indians. The prophet of islam told bilal the slave to go and marry a wife from his own people than telling his sahabas to him bilal a wife. When ever they conquered a new land and killed all the men what next they atrted sharing the wealth and women. Turk remembered what they`ve done in persian. There are many open and simple things or occasion to debate about this but to let you know, africa`s biggest problem is religion and colonialism. Nowadays or even before time africans or gambians has to be either go east or west and not african. A gambian leader has to be wannabe muslimarabian or christians westerner or even be in the middle like half of the educated elites does. Look at the problem in nigeria , Ivory coast, Senegal and gambia that can can proved they just dont understand it.Religion is a very beautifuf thing and for my own understanding of it is to help the individual to to live in peace and be human. Not forgetting Somalia the worst place on the african soil. To make it short problem exist every where and every country have a social and economic problems. Gambian social and economic problem has to do mostly or related to our culture. Like you said turk, yahya is not the only problem but you have to know people like me where having high hopes that this guy would understand more and listen. He make it more worst than it was before him. Dbaldeh get it right, a leader or a succesful civil servant is the one that loot the government coffers and the most sad thing is they will get praised from their families and friends. |
dembis |
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