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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Please don't forget to buy the one written completely in Arabic.
Kasap! I will. Oh by the way, I have finished burning the last copy. It was written in complete arabic just like the ones I burn years ago. You should have seen the flames in my back garden. It was a wonderful site. Even though I don't drink, I even went to my local supermarket to buy a bottle of wine and chop of ham to burn them with it. I burn the book with the ham and later pour in some alcohol just for my satisfaction. It was so liberating. You should have seen the smile on my face.
I take it you will be celebrating Koriteh soon [Eid al-Fitr]. Ooops! I forgot you stole the word Koriteh from the ancient Serere Pagan Festival of Koret that men under went. Just like Tobaski, just like Gamo, just like wehree kor [month of ramadan]. Why can't you Senegambian muslims just use the arabic names rather than borrowing from ancient Serere Pagan Festivals? Oops! I forgot, you lost your religion and the names of your ancestors' ancient festivals. It was only natural to borrow from the Sereres who have managed to kept their religion intact. In addition, using arabic words were difficult for the masses because they were not educated in arabic so they borrowed from Serere Animism. For goodness sake leave Serere Animist Festivals to the Serere Animist and use arabic words to describe your islamic festivals.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 10 Sep 2010 01:23:44 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 08:13:54
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quote:
Originally posted by tamsier
quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Tamsier, the Quran is more than just a book. You probably know by now that I am not a great religious person myself, but I appreciate the important role that religion plays in human civilization and human life.
It is futile criticizing Islam (or any other religion) per se instead of terrorism and those extremists who condone it. We have to be examples of that tolerance. Burning the Quran may be one's fundamental right, but what does one achieve by burning it? Islam, I don't think, is going to go away by burning a few copies of the Quran. In addition, thousands of U.S. troops are currently stationed in Muslim lands across the globe, their lives could be endangered by this act. They will become immediate targets of extremists, and the human cost could be high.
Besides, a lot of the anti-Islamic sentiments in the U.S. right now is not much connected to the 911, but the general (toxic) mood in U.S. politics...
Yes Kay I know your stance on religion. So can I deduce from your statement that you believe the quran is a ‘holy’ book?
As for criticising islam, let’s not forget that those barbaric terrorists and those who condone them were muslims. What religion do muslims follow? Islam! What is the ‘holy’ book of the muslims? The quran! Which book did those evil terrorists recited verses from before they killed innocent people in the name of islam jihad? The quran! See! There is a pattern forming here.
As for whether burning copies of the quran will achieve something or not, that is immaterial. Those who wish to burn it should be allowed to burn it as you rightly noted:
‘Burning the Quran may be one's fundamental right,..’
It is their right to burn it if they so wish rather than being demonise by a bunch of so called leaders and nobodies who already have enough on their plate to worry about than who is burning the quran. As for endangering troops’ lives in muslim countries, I refer you to my previous post. Their lives have always been in danger since they went to these countries and will continue to be in danger. It does not need this quran burn fire day to put their lives in danger. Their lives have always been in danger. The troops know that they are not stupid. They have the training and expertise to deal with these people the same way they have always dealt with them. I can’t understand why some people are getting paranoid about this quran book burning event. If people want to burn it for political/demonstration reasons, let them burn it. If people want to have a great day out by burning the quran, let them have fun and enjoy their day rather than demonising them.
As for the anti Islamic sentiments you speak of, that may be so but the recent event of the muslim cultural centre near the Twin Towers played a great part. In fact, I would go so far as saying even greater that the political mood in the USA. These people wanted to course trouble. They knew exactly what they were doing. They wanted confrontation. Now they’ve got it but decide they don’t want to play anymore. I fully support Terry Jones and his followers to burn the book. It is their legal right. Let them burn it.
Tamsier, I believe assuming the conventional meaning of "holy", the Quran is (arguably) a holy book. It is a 'sacred' book that inspires veneration. We cannot ignore that it is one of the few books that millions of people (including my mom and dad, friends, neighbors, co-workers,...) have ordered their lives around for centuries.
Islam, together with Christianity, Judaism, as well as traditional animist religions all played a crucial role in advancing human civilization.
Burning the Quran may be an available right, but it is a higly symbolic and intolerable act comparable to "hanging the nooze".
It is true that the terrorists who knocked down the Twin Towers on 911 were muslims and they claimed to derive inspiration from Islam and the Quran, but we know that every major philosophy (including theologies) have been corrupted and twisted around by over-zealous and unreasonable people. These scriptures, as well as major philosophical works like Marx's Das Capital are open to wide interpretations and mis-interpretations. Remember that for centuries, the Bible (my favorite book) has been quoted by racial supremacists as well as abolistionists...
The Bin Ladens, Mohammed Attas, Khaled Muhammeds, Bin Azeebs, Zakaria Mozawis,..., are not representative of Islam (certainly, not the Islam my mom and dad practices); and I am still very unhappy about the lack of all round forthright condemnation of terrorism from the Muslim leaders and their rank-and -file. I do also think the upcoming New York Mosque/Islamic Center needs to move further away from G-Zero... |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 10:26:40
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"I am still very unhappy about the lack of all round forthright condemnation of terrorism from the Muslim leaders and their rank-and -file".
Thank you, Kay for actually verbalising the very same feeling I (and lots more people, I'm sure!)have had since 9/11! That's the very same question I've asked of many different muslims and nobody's ever given me a straight answer .... no blame culture but just looking for an honest reply .... |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 12:42:30
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Meme
Can you list your expectations from Muslims. Clearly state what do they have to do to please you for your concerns? Personally, I do not accept the fact that Muslims in general should be blamed for lacking condemnation. It is unfair. One out of 4 people on this planet is Muslims. This is over exaggeration and unfair charge and expectation from Muslims. And it is funny, even this topic, it is Christian man action against the Islam, yet you still expect Muslims responsible? That is outrages.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 10 Sep 2010 12:43:01 |
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 12:53:26
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Not sure what exactly you're on about here, Turk? All I was saying is that it was nice to see someone post the same thoughts as I've had. As for your comment of unfairness .... if I ask my friends how they feel about certain issues/events/etc (as they do to me!)what's the problem??? They were happy to discuss this with me. I had however been amazed that although a fair few of them denounced the actions of the 9/11 perpetrators, they were equally sure that no public condemnation would be forthcoming from their local Imam. But I suppose that could be the same as what's been happening in the Catholic church and wonder if local parish priests would talk openly on this matter or not? (I don't have Catholic friends to ask, by the way!)
So, what's your point??? |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 13:10:13
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Meme, have you ever visited a local Imam and enquire as to his views on 9/11? Falsly assuming crazy stuffs about others just reveal your inner feelings.
Why should Muslims be coming out pleasing you? Every society which that is diverse will have people who will carry out sadistic acts. (The West is full of it, just like every other society). Those that mean everyone have to be responsible and must appologise for a crime they haven't commit neither knows the folks who carry it out?
Did i ever see you comdemning anything remotely associated with the West or whatever is that make you tick?
A crime committed by fringe members of any group those not mean everyone must go around appologising. Depart from yourself first before pointing fingers.
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Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 13:20:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Senegambia
Spot on! I totally agree with you. Happy Eid!
quote:
Originally posted by Santanfara
The media is as usual giving undue attention to the fame seeking Pastor. No Muslim should mind his actions. let him carry it out. Making a meal out this crazy stunts only give them the name they are seeking.
He should be allow to do it with his whole Church members present and be allow to live in peace with himself. burning the Quran will in fact increase its reading and the curiousity will be good for Islam. There is no bad publicity.
Let the politicians leave the guy alone. He should even be given a can of petrol to carry it out.
The media like this kinds of events, the guy has now attain global attention. I for one will not worry about this stunts, all they want is cause out cry and then start throwing the usual accusations.
Happy Eid to you too Senegambia.
No Imam or community leader should do a deal with Mr Jones. Let him please go ahead tommorow.
The good Pastor should democractically and constitutionally be allowed to exercise his rights. If he buys the Quran, let him burn it. The policians should stop making a big meal out of this kind of things.
The so-call Muslim fringe leaders should stop telling their members to protest. They should focus their attention on things that matter.
If the Pastor is finish with the Quran burning, he should be invited by the local Muslims for a Sunday babecue. And they should all congratulate him and wish him well in his role. His God will pat him on the shoulder after the good work i hope.
The Quran is in the heart of Millions, burning a million copies means nothing.
I blame the Pastor for listening to politicians and his critics. He should just ignore the busy bodies. Come on, this is his rights man.
If anyone in England want to do it, please let me know. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 13:27:52
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I don't think anyone including Meme is asking or expecting every muslim to apologize for 911. However, Islamic leaders and those who hold themselves out as opiniion leaders and influential members of Islam have a duty to answer when their followers commit atrocities against others...
After 911, many journalists and other scholars and students approached many Islamic leaders and the ordinary people who follow them about their views on the event. The responses largely vary from outright justifications to total denials. even the few who did condemn it, did so with great hesitation. I think this is the point... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 13:31:07
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Meme (and Kayjatta) you shared the idea of this statement. quote:
unhappy about the lack of all round forthright condemnation of terrorism from the Muslim leaders
That is why; I have asked you what Muslims would do, so that you would be satisfied in terms of condemnation of terrorism. I mean, I condemn terrorism, but I also condemn Iraq war too. Or state terrorism committed by Israel. I am confused between ‘terrorism’ and ‘war’. I am also confused people selective statements about ‘soldier’, ‘militia’, ‘rebel’, ‘freedom fighter’, ‘guerilla’ and ‘terrorist’.
For 911, I have lots of doubts. I do not know if we have enough information about the event. There was an investigation about 911; the result was censored by the government of USA. Like the investigation results of JFK assassination. Why a government is afraid of the truth? I have still doubt that 911 has something very important we do not know.
Have you seen the movie ‘wag the dog’ or something by Dustin Hoffman and Robert de Niro?
I may not know but I can speculate. I am not sure if it is remotely possible to have three airplanes hijacked. There are many conspiracy theories but I believe that the intelligence of USA was part of the 911 attack. They knew it and they allowed. Because, when I see the murder, first I look at the potentially who get the most out of it. The USA government obviously benefit most from the 911. It was convenient excuse for them to expand their hegemony. Who was most harmed by the 911 other than 3000 innocent civilians. Muslims!
It would be fair wishes when leaders the united states of America offers former apology to attack Iraq and supporting the Apartheid regimes like South Africa and Israel.
quote:
Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich.
I mean the president of United States has attacked Iraq without any reason despite UN opposition and murdered innocent civilians. Did any leader in the west condemn this attack?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 10 Sep 2010 14:05:02 |
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 13:31:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Santanfara
Meme, have you ever visited a local Imam and enquire as to his views on 9/11? Falsly assuming crazy stuffs about others just reveal your inner feelings.
Why should Muslims be coming out pleasing you? Every society which that is diverse will have people who will carry out sadistic acts. (The West is full of it, just like every other society). Those that mean everyone have to be responsible and must appologise for a crime they haven't commit neither knows the folks who carry it out?
Did i ever see you comdemning anything remotely associated with the West or whatever is that make you tick?
A crime committed by fringe members of any group those not mean everyone must go around appologising. Depart from yourself first before pointing fingers.
and this shows how intolerant some people can be ..... and obtuse as you chose not to read and understand my words .... you know who you are 
Have already given a further explanation of my initial post so won't even waste any more time on this thread .... |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 14:47:17
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No need, MeMe..
Just heard it on the radio: Mr Jones decided not to burn any books today or tomorrow or ever.. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 15:51:16
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| If the deal reached and if the deal is that 'not building mosque around 911 area', I am not satisfied. This is not something anyone should negotiate. That is crazy, for this stupid imam even to talk to this guy about any negotiation or resolution. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 10 Sep 2010 15:51:57 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 19:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
[brTamsier, I believe assuming the conventional meaning of "holy", the Quran is (arguably) a holy book. It is a 'sacred' book that inspires veneration. We cannot ignore that it is one of the few books that millions of people (including my mom and dad, friends, neighbors, co-workers,...) have ordered their lives around for centuries.
Islam, together with Christianity, Judaism, as well as traditional animist religions all played a crucial role in advancing human civilization.
Burning the Quran may be an available right, but it is a higly symbolic and intolerable act comparable to "hanging the nooze".
It is true that the terrorists who knocked down the Twin Towers on 911 were muslims and they claimed to derive inspiration from Islam and the Quran, but we know that every major philosophy (including theologies) have been corrupted and twisted around by over-zealous and unreasonable people. These scriptures, as well as major philosophical works like Marx's Das Capital are open to wide interpretations and mis-interpretations. Remember that for centuries, the Bible (my favorite book) has been quoted by racial supremacists as well as abolistionists...
The Bin Ladens, Mohammed Attas, Khaled Muhammeds, Bin Azeebs, Zakaria Mozawis,..., are not representative of Islam (certainly, not the Islam my mom and dad practices); and I am still very unhappy about the lack of all round forthright condemnation of terrorism from the Muslim leaders and their rank-and -file. I do also think the upcoming New York Mosque/Islamic Center needs to move further away from G-Zero...
Kay
As far as I am concerned there is nothing holy about this book. Just because millions of people consider it holy does not necessary mean it is holy. How can a book that has inspired rape, killing, enslavement, torture, paedophilia etc etc be holy? Just because a huge number of people believe it to be good does not mean it is good. A huge number of people believed that Slavery was good. Does that make it good? A huge number of people believed that the Holocaust was a good idea. Does that make it good? The answer is NO to both. The masses can be indoctrinated in believing in this book and the ‘religion’ it represents just as the masses were indoctrinated to believe in Slavery and the Holocaust. None of them are/were good. They are all evil and several people now including myself believe them to be evil. As for the Senegambian muslim masses, we both know they do not order their lives based on this book. They only do when it suits them and when they cannot find answers to the questions they seek, they refer back to African Animism then go home and pretend as if nothing has ever happened. MUSLIM BUSSINESS AS USUAL! There are several parts of this book they do not follow, instead they follow the Animistic religion of their forefathers. They do not even use the arabic names to describe their religious festivals. Instead, they borrow from the Serere Religion which is based in Animism. Since the Serere Religion has several Deities and Roog is our supreme Deity, I say these Senegambian muslim masses have broken the Shahada [Islamic declaration of faith] which is a fundamental principle of islam. Don’t you think? As the late Serere President Senghore said:
''I have seen a Muslim Head of State consult the Serere Sacred Wood and offer in sacrifice a bull. I have also seen a Christian woman and a Muslim practising medical doctor, consult the Serere Pangool. In truth, everywhere in Black Africa, the revealed religions are rooted in the Animism which still inspire poets and artists, I am well placed to know it and to say it…''
As for renowned historian Professor Issa Laye Thiaw – A Serere Animist and the son of a High Priest this is what he has to say about the matter:
''Since Islamization and Christianization, Africans do not respect nature. Conversion starts with a change of mindsets and as soon as that happens, any further change is accepted. Each religion has plundered the tradition of its community of birth. Where Islam was born, women had little if any rights, Islam has led us to the marginalization and inferiority of women.''
''Official statistics: Muslim 94%, indigenous beliefs 1%, Christian 5% (mostly Roman Catholic).
Unofficial statistics 99,9% Animists.
Due to an inferiority complex and to the force of Muslim and Christian propaganda, the majority of the people who continue to believe in the ancestral pre-Islamic and pre-Christian faith do not dare to openly admit it.''
The greatest enemy and divider among us is islam. It has been for centuries but more so in the 19th century when the masses converted to islam. This still resonates to this day. I have witnessed with my very eyes a Senegambian who was born into the islam ‘faith’ whom I know detest everything Islamic when the muslim elders, his parents or elderly relatives are not around. Yet, when these people are present, he would not dare express his true feelings and has to pretend to be a muslim – even praying to a god he detest [allah]. This is how islam has destroyed the very fabric of our society. I support anyone, from any part of the World who wants to degrade or show what this cult really stands for as I and several others have done and will continue to do.
The muslims who knocked down the Twin Towers and killed innocent people where doing it in the name of islam and they had the authority to do so from the quran itself. There is no point playing with words. This is a fact. If muslims do not want the quran misrepresented, the people who wrote it should have been consistent and clear right from the start. You can’t say in one verse go and kill infidels and in another don’t kill none believes/leave them to worship their own religion and you worship yours. You can’t say in one verse enslave them and give instructions how to treat the slaves and in another verse say don’t enslave others. I can go on forever. These inconsistent principles will never be seen in the Animist Faiths and certainly not in the Serere Orthodox Faith which is rather strange considering the fact that it is written. Personally, I am sick to death of hearing muslims say the Islamic terrorists have wrongly quoted the quran etc. No! They haven’t. They have followed exactly what the quran said. The people who wrote this book have achieved their goal and will continue to do so unless people wake up. Their desire was to CONFUSE and to ABSOLVE ISLAM OF ANY CRITICISM. This still resonates to this day. On one hand, the Islamic terrorists under the banner of jihad will use one or two verses from the quran to justify their killing, whilst other muslims will use another verses [s] to say their actions are unislamic. Liberal do-gooders will believe the latter [the masses] and therefore the mission is achieved: CONFUSION AND ABSOLVING ISLAM OF CRITICISM. A very clever strategy! I’m sorry but it will not wash with me. Bin Ladens, Mohammed Attas, Khaled Muhammeds, Bin Azeebs, Zakaria Mozawis, etc etc etc are the very embodiment of islam. There role in this Islamic soap opera is to play their part – to which they play beautifully: THE BAD COPS, while the masses play their part: THE GOOD COPS. Mission accomplished: CONFUSION AND ABSOLVING ISLAM OF CRITICISM.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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) may actually go ahead with the planned burning of Qurans tomorrow, as talks with the New York Imam, Imam Rauf breaks down...
