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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 20:54:00
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Kay, you have no doubt raised the bar higher. It is understable where Mansasulu is coming from, especially with his observation that the cruel Death Penalty was buried in Gambian Constitution with nobody challenging it. May be we need to drive along the other avenue where sitting at the street corner is the monster of fear and misguidance. At the time that military coated constitution was delivered to Gambians, it was taken full hook. Many could not know but Jammeh who intentionally chose the death penalty had reason to abolish it but refused doing so.
Gambian people do not deserve Jammeh or anyone of that cruel and terrible nature. Therefore, Jammeh is not a reflection of Gambians. With criminal intent, he took up arms and brought terror on whole society. After taste of corruption, he thinks it is OK to perpertuate.
Anyone (including Turk) who trades on the idea that Gambians deserve Jammeh is undeniably misguided and cruel to Gambians. Jammeh was never a choice. The bandit is totally different from many good Gambians.
Down with military bandits! Down with deception! Down with self perpetuation! Down with thuggery on Gambian soil and the whole world of civilised people.
All we have to realise is that Jammeh will never have it easy. Gambians are not docile to let cruel bandits ride on any longer.
Moe, you wonder why I have to repeat this scale of cruelty million times. It is because people like you want to trade false goods to Gambians. No way. You don't have what it takes to block truth. You are free to misconduct yourself and create so much fun. That is entirely yours.
Why are you bothered Moe when the hot pepper truth about Jammeh is pounded? If you choose to keep Jammeh your patron, create something personal for him. This is a nation and no amount of greed and self perpetuation will sustain. Enjoy your depth of low life and vulgar down casting. It is people like you Moe who caused Jammeh this scale of misery. Before he comes to terms, you would drown him deep. |
Karamba |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 23:56:01
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quote:
Anyone (including Turk)....
I knew you have a special place in your heart for me.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 20 Jul 2010 23:56:19 |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 00:02:08
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
quote:
Anyone (including Turk)....
I knew you have a special place in your heart for me.
No hard feelings though. You are most welcome. |
Karamba |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 09:06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Kay,
Which of the Bushes was a great leader...lol? It was de tocqueville who said that "...in every democracy the people get the leaders they deserve..." Now I am not gonna sit here and debate whether we are a democracy or not...i will live that to others. However, I am gonna even go further and say that de tocquiville's statement applies to every authocratic system, as in the Gambia. Take a look at the likes of Lang and Jesus for eg. These dudes are as guilty as the Sheikh himself, in that they actually committed the crimes that Jammeh ordered. Now these same individuals are the sons, fathers, and brothers of a larger Gambian society who sat by and said nothing. We helped him build a corrupt and faulty judicial system that was used in prosecuting our fellow country men and women, so it is only fair that we seek redress from the same judicial system. Change is not gonna come from anywhere, change is gonna come from within.
Yes the AFPRC reinstated the death penalty in 1995, but we seem to ignore the fact that Gambians voted in a referendum that accepted the death penalty in 1996. In essence we reinstated it. Perhaps, if we had faithfully followed the laws in our books predating 1994, Jammeh and his fellow revolutionaries would have second thoughts about overthrowing a democratically elected (albeit corrupt) government in the first place...knowing what failure will mean...just a thought.
Jammeh alone is not capable of killing a single fly without a support structure of complicit Gambians. Time and again he has purged others and there is long line of others who want to help him continue demonizing Gambians just for the meager gains they stand to benefit from. This is why I inferred that, we (Gambians) are a mirror reflection of Jammeh. Unless, we collective stand for justice, this cycle of intimidation, subjugation and slavery will continue.
Mansasulu:
Of course George W. Bush!!!
But here is the deal. The statement quoted here "the people get the govt. they deserve" is often preceded by "in a democracy". It is only in a democracy that the people can get a govt. they deserve (or a govt that truly reflects them. (Let us assume the two are the same). The quote is believed to be erroneously attributed to Tocqueville, a liberal political thinker. It was actually by Joseph Maistre, a French thinker and an advocate for authoritarianism. There are two assumptions that come with these phrase:
1. that elections are free and fair
2. that all eligible voters actually vote or have the opportunity to vote.
Where these two assumptions are not met, a govt. cannot be said to represent the wishes of the people and therefore cannot be a true reflection of their society. It will be gross injustice to say that the murderous A(F)PRC regime is a true reflection of the Gambian people who are widely known and praised for their natural peaceful and egalitarian character. I am sure many Gambians wake up every morning and pinch themselves to make sure what they are seeing and hearing each day in their country is reality not a bad dream. In the same way, it will be appalling to say that the Apatheid regime of South Africa or the Jim Crow era govts. of the U.S. were true reflections of the S/African and the American people respecttively. In both situations large sections of the population were barred from voting. Certainly, Slobodan Milosevic was not a true reflection of Yugoslavia. Both Nigeria and Ghana are today proving to the world that they did not deserve the criminal and murderous military regimes (of Rawlings and Abacha particularly) that they have had to endure for decades.
Other examples are Libya, Iraq under Saddam's minority Sunni rule, Egypt, and many countries south of the Sahara where repression is routinely used to enforce compliance and to keep the regimes in power.
International development experts understnad that invariably societies, especially those in the developing world, are not reflections of their govts. Therefore, many development agencies are directly targeting the good people of the countries instead of the corrupt, incompetent, brutal, parasitic govts. that rule them.
The quote that "...the people get the govt. they deserve" is false, especially in the Gambian context, because it puts the blame on the victims, the Gambian people who are continously being denied the opportunity to change their govt. (by voting for PDOIS, not UDP). A country where the electorate are broken in spirit by continous intimidation and physical torture to the point that only a small fraction comes out to vote (political apathy) cannot be said to have a govt. that reflects their society. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 21 Jul 2010 11:31:57 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 09:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
Kay
I would not say ‘fallacy’. I think mansasulu statement is correct for the most cases, (leaders) in the world. Most leaders who are ordinary are ‘reflection of the people they rule’ because
- They fulfill their vote base, society
- Yes, they are product of their environment
- They are pragmatist, they act based on the societies expectations and they react to society.
Actually your previous statement is a valid point supporting mansa. You said:
quote:
Guys if our president can utter this remark in front of the nation, don't you think we are really far away from democracy?
With this statement, you are actually relating ‘Gambian society, their expectation, standards and the leader.
Actually what this statement means is that Jammeh does not understand democracy and good governance, and therefore has made it elusive for Gambians. Every time Jammeh speaks, democracy seems so far away for Gambians. It is the leadership, not the Gambian society!!!
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bread man
300 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 16:24:55
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Now that 7 people have their heads hanging in the balance, will Jammeh want death penalty retained or have it abolished for good?
Will Jammeh tell Gambians why he preferred importing the mighty Death Penalty from legal history of 400 years?
Karamba
Jammeh never introduce the death penalty, if it has any introduction it was done by the consultative commitee that drafted the constitution and the Gambians that voted for it in a referandum.
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It is the mark of intelligence to entertain an idea without accepting it. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 17:28:18
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Kay,
Which of the Bushes was a great leader...lol? It was de tocqueville who said that "...in every democracy the people get the leaders they deserve..." Now I am not gonna sit here and debate whether we are a democracy or not...i will live that to others. However, I am gonna even go further and say that de tocquiville's statement applies to every authocratic system, as in the Gambia. Take a look at the likes of Lang and Jesus for eg. These dudes are as guilty as the Sheikh himself, in that they actually committed the crimes that Jammeh ordered. Now these same individuals are the sons, fathers, and brothers of a larger Gambian society who sat by and said nothing. We helped him build a corrupt and faulty judicial system that was used in prosecuting our fellow country men and women, so it is only fair that we seek redress from the same judicial system. Change is not gonna come from anywhere, change is gonna come from within.
Yes the AFPRC reinstated the death penalty in 1995, but we seem to ignore the fact that Gambians voted in a referendum that accepted the death penalty in 1996. In essence we reinstated it. Perhaps, if we had faithfully followed the laws in our books predating 1994, Jammeh and his fellow revolutionaries would have second thoughts about overthrowing a democratically elected (albeit corrupt) government in the first place...knowing what failure will mean...just a thought.
Jammeh alone is not capable of killing a single fly without a support structure of complicit Gambians. Time and again he has purged others and there is long line of others who want to help him continue demonizing Gambians just for the meager gains they stand to benefit from. This is why I inferred that, we (Gambians) are a mirror reflection of Jammeh. Unless, we collective stand for justice, this cycle of intimidation, subjugation and slavery will continue.
Mansasulu:
Of course George W. Bush!!!
But here is the deal. The statement quoted here "the people get the govt. they deserve" is often preceded by "in a democracy". It is only in a democracy that the people can get a govt. they deserve (or a govt that truly reflects them. (Let us assume the two are the same). The quote is believed to be erroneously attributed to Tocqueville, a liberal political thinker. It was actually by Joseph Maistre, a French thinker and an advocate for authoritarianism. There are two assumptions that come with these phrase:
1. that elections are free and fair
2. that all eligible voters actually vote or have the opportunity to vote.
Where these two assumptions are not met, a govt. cannot be said to represent the wishes of the people and therefore cannot be a true reflection of their society. It will be gross injustice to say that the murderous A(F)PRC regime is a true reflection of the Gambian people who are widely known and praised for their natural peaceful and egalitarian character. I am sure many Gambians wake up every morning and pinch themselves to make sure what they are seeing and hearing each day in their country is reality not a bad dream. In the same way, it will be appalling to say that the Apatheid regime of South Africa or the Jim Crow era govts. of the U.S. were true reflections of the S/African and the American people respecttively. In both situations large sections of the population were barred from voting. Certainly, Slobodan Milosevic was not a true reflection of Yugoslavia. Both Nigeria and Ghana are today proving to the world that they did not deserve the criminal and murderous military regimes (of Rawlings and Abacha particularly) that they have had to endure for decades.
Other examples are Libya, Iraq under Saddam's minority Sunni rule, Egypt, and many countries south of the Sahara where repression is routinely used to enforce compliance and to keep the regimes in power.
International development experts understnad that invariably societies, especially those in the developing world, are not reflections of their govts. Therefore, many development agencies are directly targeting the good people of the countries instead of the corrupt, incompetent, brutal, parasitic govts. that rule them.
The quote that "...the people get the govt. they deserve" is false, especially in the Gambian context, because it puts the blame on the victims, the Gambian people who are continously being denied the opportunity to change their govt. (by voting for PDOIS, not UDP). A country where the electorate are broken in spirit by continous intimidation and physical torture to the point that only a small fraction comes out to vote (political apathy) cannot be said to have a govt. that reflects their society.
Kay
Your arguments on aparthied in South Africa, Milosevic's atrocities in the former Yugoslavia or Saddam in Iraq all fall flat. All of these cases represent the case of a minority repressing an overwhelming majority. They were all successful because the larger population were simply cowed or did nothing so longer as someone else was under the stick and not them. Either way, they were as are the overwhelming Gambian people complicit in our own faith.
Irrespective of who came up with quote, whether its de Maistre or de Tocquiville let us take a look at the facts on the ground.
Jammeh is not the one denying us justice. We do not deserve justice because if we truely want it we would have all walked to State House and take care of the problem. We as a society are too divided to know what will truely benefit us. If you dont believe me reflect the fall out of NADD or revisit a recent piece of FATOU JAW MANNEH about her experiences in Gambia. I am sure we all learnt the concept of divide and rule. This is exactly what is happening in the Gambia. Every successfull authocratic ruler from Firaun (Pharoah)to the present day mastered this art.
Believe me Kay, people indeed voted for Jammeh in all the elections that happened in the Gambia after the coup. I am sure as a political junkie you do know that elections do have consequencies. We got exactly what we bargained for. Even the online poll currently being ran by JOLLOFNEWS has Jammeh in the lead in a head to match us of potential canditates. That tell you something. If you dont believe me check it out. I know it is not a scientific polling in that multiple voting is happening, but its shows you the enthusiasm of Gambians when it comes to Jammeh. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 20:35:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Janko
Human Rights Council adopts outcomes of Universal Periodic Review of Iraq, the Gambia, and Egypt
Human Rights Council
MORNING 11 June 2010
“…Nevertheless, while there was already a moratorium on the death penalty since 1995, the Government did not intend to abolish the penalty now or any time soon. The 1997 Constitution of the Gambia clearly guaranteed the right not to be tortured, and protection against unlawful arrests and detentions, as it guaranteed the independence of the judiciary and the rights of human rights defenders….”
Janko, this one provides more beef for Breadman to bite on. The fact a cruel Death Penalty stays in Gambian Constitution is because Yaya Jammeh wants it there. He wants it there because when he kills, he enjoys immunity. It is a shield for him.
Breadman, Jammeh has all the time to erase that Death Penalty. Why is he still happy to keep it?
This is a challenging test for Chairman to handle. |
Karamba |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 06:57:44
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Kay,
Which of the Bushes was a great leader...lol? It was de tocqueville who said that "...in every democracy the people get the leaders they deserve..." Now I am not gonna sit here and debate whether we are a democracy or not...i will live that to others. However, I am gonna even go further and say that de tocquiville's statement applies to every authocratic system, as in the Gambia. Take a look at the likes of Lang and Jesus for eg. These dudes are as guilty as the Sheikh himself, in that they actually committed the crimes that Jammeh ordered. Now these same individuals are the sons, fathers, and brothers of a larger Gambian society who sat by and said nothing. We helped him build a corrupt and faulty judicial system that was used in prosecuting our fellow country men and women, so it is only fair that we seek redress from the same judicial system. Change is not gonna come from anywhere, change is gonna come from within.
Yes the AFPRC reinstated the death penalty in 1995, but we seem to ignore the fact that Gambians voted in a referendum that accepted the death penalty in 1996. In essence we reinstated it. Perhaps, if we had faithfully followed the laws in our books predating 1994, Jammeh and his fellow revolutionaries would have second thoughts about overthrowing a democratically elected (albeit corrupt) government in the first place...knowing what failure will mean...just a thought.
Jammeh alone is not capable of killing a single fly without a support structure of complicit Gambians. Time and again he has purged others and there is long line of others who want to help him continue demonizing Gambians just for the meager gains they stand to benefit from. This is why I inferred that, we (Gambians) are a mirror reflection of Jammeh. Unless, we collective stand for justice, this cycle of intimidation, subjugation and slavery will continue.
Mansasulu:
Of course George W. Bush!!!
But here is the deal. The statement quoted here "the people get the govt. they deserve" is often preceded by "in a democracy". It is only in a democracy that the people can get a govt. they deserve (or a govt that truly reflects them. (Let us assume the two are the same). The quote is believed to be erroneously attributed to Tocqueville, a liberal political thinker. It was actually by Joseph Maistre, a French thinker and an advocate for authoritarianism. There are two assumptions that come with these phrase:
1. that elections are free and fair
2. that all eligible voters actually vote or have the opportunity to vote.
Where these two assumptions are not met, a govt. cannot be said to represent the wishes of the people and therefore cannot be a true reflection of their society. It will be gross injustice to say that the murderous A(F)PRC regime is a true reflection of the Gambian people who are widely known and praised for their natural peaceful and egalitarian character. I am sure many Gambians wake up every morning and pinch themselves to make sure what they are seeing and hearing each day in their country is reality not a bad dream. In the same way, it will be appalling to say that the Apatheid regime of South Africa or the Jim Crow era govts. of the U.S. were true reflections of the S/African and the American people respecttively. In both situations large sections of the population were barred from voting. Certainly, Slobodan Milosevic was not a true reflection of Yugoslavia. Both Nigeria and Ghana are today proving to the world that they did not deserve the criminal and murderous military regimes (of Rawlings and Abacha particularly) that they have had to endure for decades.
Other examples are Libya, Iraq under Saddam's minority Sunni rule, Egypt, and many countries south of the Sahara where repression is routinely used to enforce compliance and to keep the regimes in power.
International development experts understnad that invariably societies, especially those in the developing world, are not reflections of their govts. Therefore, many development agencies are directly targeting the good people of the countries instead of the corrupt, incompetent, brutal, parasitic govts. that rule them.
The quote that "...the people get the govt. they deserve" is false, especially in the Gambian context, because it puts the blame on the victims, the Gambian people who are continously being denied the opportunity to change their govt. (by voting for PDOIS, not UDP). A country where the electorate are broken in spirit by continous intimidation and physical torture to the point that only a small fraction comes out to vote (political apathy) cannot be said to have a govt. that reflects their society.
Kay
Jammeh is not the one denying us justice. We do not deserve justice...
Believe me Kay, people indeed voted for Jammeh in all the elections that happened in the Gambia after the coup. I am sure as a political junkie you do know that elections do have consequencies. We got exactly what we bargained for. Even the online poll currently being ran by JOLLOFNEWS has Jammeh in the lead in a head to match us of potential canditates. That tell you something. If you dont believe me check it out. I know it is not a scientific polling in that multiple voting is happening, but its shows you the enthusiasm of Gambians when it comes to Jammeh. Mansasulu said.
Well that is bad news for the UDP then!  |
Edited by - kayjatta on 22 Jul 2010 07:05:45 |
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 07:17:48
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Kayjatta based on your poor assessment truly speaking I wanted to reply but I discovered that it was "Wahey Chuuneh" which i tend to abhor. You ain't saying anything but chasing your tail around hopelessly. Nothing you stated is of any essence and lacks all the merit. I don't even think you know what you posted or just maybe the bottle is killing you after all. Thats a backward trend of thought Kay ,what did Jammeh order and how sure are you after running away from your reality to another reality far from perfect, yet you adore and respect what it stands for, you even swore to protect it too......................................................Peacequote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Kay,
Which of the Bushes was a great leader...lol? It was de tocqueville who said that "...in every democracy the people get the leaders they deserve..." Now I am not gonna sit here and debate whether we are a democracy or not...i will live that to others. However, I am gonna even go further and say that de tocquiville's statement applies to every authocratic system, as in the Gambia. Take a look at the likes of Lang and Jesus for eg. These dudes are as guilty as the Sheikh himself, in that they actually committed the crimes that Jammeh ordered. Now these same individuals are the sons, fathers, and brothers of a larger Gambian society who sat by and said nothing. We helped him build a corrupt and faulty judicial system that was used in prosecuting our fellow country men and women, so it is only fair that we seek redress from the same judicial system. Change is not gonna come from anywhere, change is gonna come from within.
Yes the AFPRC reinstated the death penalty in 1995, but we seem to ignore the fact that Gambians voted in a referendum that accepted the death penalty in 1996. In essence we reinstated it. Perhaps, if we had faithfully followed the laws in our books predating 1994, Jammeh and his fellow revolutionaries would have second thoughts about overthrowing a democratically elected (albeit corrupt) government in the first place...knowing what failure will mean...just a thought.
Jammeh alone is not capable of killing a single fly without a support structure of complicit Gambians. Time and again he has purged others and there is long line of others who want to help him continue demonizing Gambians just for the meager gains they stand to benefit from. This is why I inferred that, we (Gambians) are a mirror reflection of Jammeh. Unless, we collective stand for justice, this cycle of intimidation, subjugation and slavery will continue.
Mansasulu:
Of course George W. Bush!!!
But here is the deal. The statement quoted here "the people get the govt. they deserve" is often preceded by "in a democracy". It is only in a democracy that the people can get a govt. they deserve (or a govt that truly reflects them. (Let us assume the two are the same). The quote is believed to be erroneously attributed to Tocqueville, a liberal political thinker. It was actually by Joseph Maistre, a French thinker and an advocate for authoritarianism. There are two assumptions that come with these phrase:
1. that elections are free and fair
2. that all eligible voters actually vote or have the opportunity to vote.
Where these two assumptions are not met, a govt. cannot be said to represent the wishes of the people and therefore cannot be a true reflection of their society. It will be gross injustice to say that the murderous A(F)PRC regime is a true reflection of the Gambian people who are widely known and praised for their natural peaceful and egalitarian character. I am sure many Gambians wake up every morning and pinch themselves to make sure what they are seeing and hearing each day in their country is reality not a bad dream. In the same way, it will be appalling to say that the Apatheid regime of South Africa or the Jim Crow era govts. of the U.S. were true reflections of the S/African and the American people respecttively. In both situations large sections of the population were barred from voting. Certainly, Slobodan Milosevic was not a true reflection of Yugoslavia. Both Nigeria and Ghana are today proving to the world that they did not deserve the criminal and murderous military regimes (of Rawlings and Abacha particularly) that they have had to endure for decades.
Other examples are Libya, Iraq under Saddam's minority Sunni rule, Egypt, and many countries south of the Sahara where repression is routinely used to enforce compliance and to keep the regimes in power.
International development experts understnad that invariably societies, especially those in the developing world, are not reflections of their govts. Therefore, many development agencies are directly targeting the good people of the countries instead of the corrupt, incompetent, brutal, parasitic govts. that rule them.
The quote that "...the people get the govt. they deserve" is false, especially in the Gambian context, because it puts the blame on the victims, the Gambian people who are continously being denied the opportunity to change their govt. (by voting for PDOIS, not UDP). A country where the electorate are broken in spirit by continous intimidation and physical torture to the point that only a small fraction comes out to vote (political apathy) cannot be said to have a govt. that reflects their society.
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I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 12:28:52
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1. Death Penalty should be banned in every country of the earth.
2. Karamba, as someone who choses a US President's portrait as his avatar, why are you getting exited about Death Penalty in Gambia? Did JFK do anything to abolish this barbaric practice in his country? |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 00:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by serenata
1. Death Penalty should be banned in every country of the earth.
2. Karamba, as someone who choses a US President's portrait as his avatar, why are you getting exited about Death Penalty in Gambia? Did JFK do anything to abolish this barbaric practice in his country?
Point taken Serenata. Death Penalty in my view is improper. In America lots of people who already faced it could have been proven innocent, therefore lost their lives in vain. JFK would have been wrong keeping mute over the Death Penalty. I would have disagreed with him on that account.
Elsewhere, I already condemned the practice for all humanity.
But thank you and welcome after long time. |
Karamba |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
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| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
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