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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 02:50:50
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Go Western? Europe, North America?
Far east? Korea, Singapore, Taiwan?
Latin American Socialism? Venezuela, Bolivia
Moderate Islam? Turkey, Malaysia, Tunisia
Or its unique African roots?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 03:02:59
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| Looks like we have many western model promoters particularly from diaspora. What about economic success stories in a short time far east? Do Gambian have more commons with them than western model? What about socialism where planned economic could work for Gambia? What about Turkey? Or maybe Gambia needs to develop its unique model? Any thoughts? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 03:06:08
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Is a combination possible. There is no way that Gambia can stick to one model but due to it's sheer size and the nature of the people I would assume a combination from all of the Above would definitely be feasible. If we have to develop a new system it has to be unique and address pertinent issues at the same time.....................................................................Peace
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I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
Edited by - Moe on 06 Jul 2010 03:06:46 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 03:13:45
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So what you are saying is that unique to Gambian but inspired by other success stories. So the question is what to take what not to take. For example, why would you take from Malaysia, Bolivia, Sweden or Taiwan, what would you not take.
I have been saying that western model does not fit Gambia as it has completely different background. Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, S.Korea, Turkey or Tunisia maybe a better fit.
Take Korea or Singapore for example, they demonstrated rapid economic growth in such a short time. Or Gambia has similar social structure i.e. religiously Turkey or Malaysia. Or Socialist model where planned economy may be the best fit. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 06 Jul 2010 03:18:26 |
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 03:18:45
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Turk democracy or so called democracy never seems to work in any environment. It is the practices ensuring fairness and taking from other countries whats sustainable. Democracy has many faces as long as it is fair in all terms. Either way just because it may be unique to the environment does not make it undemocratic. For instance why the hell would we need 5 parties or so competing for the presidency in a region with less than 1.5 million inhabitants resorting to a two party state both subsidized by the state, I would assume is a long term solution for Gambia. Multi party system in my opinion in such a small region breeds hatred, jealousy and lack of foresight as the present situation dictates.............................................................................Peace
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I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
Edited by - Moe on 06 Jul 2010 03:20:28 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 03:23:33
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| I was not referring only political/democracy. My model includes social, political and economic development. While I admit Turkey's democracy is not ideal, but they have demonstrated functioning democracy with secularism and tremendous social/economic development. Turkey's economy is growing so fast, in 20 years they will be top 10 in the world and GDP per capita close to European avarage. They are already 15th largest and economy in the world, 6th largest in Europe. And this happened while they did have tribalism like situation with Kurds which is similar to Gambia and it took 70 years. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 06 Jul 2010 03:37:31 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 03:27:07
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I agree with political party criticism. If you read my posts, i did mentioned non-partisan democracy and more decentralized system where political and economic power transferred to local governments in health, education etc.
I want to add another criticism for multi-party system in Gambia. It seem like Gambian political parties do not have ideological differences. Mostly faces are different but nothing else. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 03:34:49
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The social aspects, political and economical are inherent in an evolving environment. I guess the questions should be what have other regions done to establish themselves politically and economically and doing the feasibility studies to identify if a similar ideology can work meanwhile replicating their models. Most economies were in Shambles and within a short period have identified what they need to do to achieve their aspirations or goals. Gambia in general well as you can see the environment seems to dictate otherwise. We have other more important things to focus on mainly Education and poverty elevation. We have a problem prioritizing our needs vs our wants and that am assuming is the African problem...........................Peace quote:
Originally posted by turk
I was not referring only political/democracy. My model includes social, political and economic development. While I admit Turkey's democracy is not ideal, but they have demonstrated functioning democracy with secularism and tremendous social/economic development. Turkey's economy is growing so fast, in 20 years they will be top 10 in the world and close to European avarage. They are already 15th largest economy in the world. And this happened while they did have tribalism like situation with Kurds which is similar to Gambia.
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I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
Edited by - Moe on 06 Jul 2010 03:39:24 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 03:44:10
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Social, economic and political development must developed parallel. If education, health and poverty elevation are the major obstacles, then socialism, government led development is important. Education and health are not about profit, it is more social investment, so private sector usually not that successful.
p.s. I am not ideological. A model is not an objective but it is a tool for a nation. Whether model fits to realities should be more important for the nation. I would rather search for better model for Gambia for its needs rather than get a model and try to fit. And this is open to discussion.
For example, a western model does not fit to Gambia because Gambia:
Did not have the same historical process. Enlightenment in 1500s, industrial revolution 1800s, colonization (free capital, natural resources), slavery (free labor). Gambia does not have higher GDP per capita, education which help to establish western democracy. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 06 Jul 2010 03:48:14 |
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 03:46:17
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| I guess we have to see what Janko has to say about all this. He always has a good premise on such topics ......................................................Peace |
I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 18:36:10
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TURK your thoughts make sense,("I would rather search for better model for Gambia for its needs rather than get a model and try to fit. And this is open to discussion." )
can I suggest perhaps something a little unusual,perhaps socialist leanings.?
Each village or town has an elected headman voted for by the villigers,each district has a chief elected by the headmen of the villages,the district chiefs meet every month at a forum and make decisions by a voting process,once voted upon these decisions are enforced by the village headmen on the village community.In this way there would be no party system and decisions would be democratic.As tribalism is very strong in The Gambia and corruption and greed seem to be everywhere this model may be a non starter,any views?
quote:
Originally posted by turk
Social, economic and political development must developed parallel. If education, health and poverty elevation are the major obstacles, then socialism, government led development is important. Education and health are not about profit, it is more social investment, so private sector usually not that successful.
p.s. I am not ideological. A model is not an objective but it is a tool for a nation. Whether model fits to realities should be more important for the nation. I would rather search for better model for Gambia for its needs rather than get a model and try to fit. And this is open to discussion.
For example, a western model does not fit to Gambia because Gambia:
Did not have the same historical process. Enlightenment in 1500s, industrial revolution 1800s, colonization (free capital, natural resources), slavery (free labor). Gambia does not have higher GDP per capita, education which help to establish western democracy.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 19:42:43
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Touby
One reality supporting the non-partisan system is that Gambian Political parties not having significant ideological differences. So if they are not ideological, what is the purpose of political party?
The election system should involve locals more. I mean, the vote only happens once a term and Gambian public, especially rural area, out of touch of political debate. After the election, there is no mechanism for public to be part of decision making process. Especially when most are illiterate, women, and do not have tv, radio, newspaper to be informed. Also, Gambia do not have strong unions, community organizations to involve politics collectively. Maybe, your system may help wider Gambians to be part of political process. If the power are de-centralized and some of the political process/government services controlled by local village, district, the political process and power would be closer to ordinary people. And since the power is more horizontal, it is more democratic. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 21:01:58
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| Turk, what is right is right what is wrong is wrong,simple,so why do idologies matter at all if the sole purpose of an administration is to look after the people? I posted my ideas in order to I hope be in tune with Gambian thinking,was I incorrect ? the AVERAGE Gambian wants very few needs,food,housing,education,health care,it has to be accepted that jobs in the Gambia are very limited,therefore an attitude has grown up over generations that work is not available so why try to go and look for non existant jobs,far better to try your luck in other ways or accept that you will be cared for by the extended family where perhaps one person is working,therefore meeting the limited needs of the AVERAGE Gambian does not need a complex administration ruled by political parties,why not let the people live a life without administration interferrence which are top heavy,probably to create jobs for friends and relatives of the administration (any administration which gets into office).Basic structure is all that is required. The AVERAGE Gambian is not interested in political debate,I have outlined what he is interested in within this posting. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 01:17:41
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Ideologies matters toubab. I am not ideological but different ideology fit different realities well. In social science what is right for one is not necessary right for others. For example, between 1923 to 1950, Turkish Republic was under on party democracy with the leadership of Ataturk. The country was devastated after first world war, many men died or injured. Infrastructure is gone. They lost the land. But during these years, the economic development was tremendous, later 1950s, they transition to multi party system. My point was, it was a sole party system which was anti-democratic. It was more like a communist system where everything was planned and executed by the government. Would liberal democracy work. I don't think so. Ideology is the way/methodology to achieve the ultimate goal which is wealth, good governance, justice for all, fair income distribution. Some ideologies work best for some nations for specific time. It is a tool and you choose it best for your needs and realities. I am die heart liberal democrat in the country I am living in, but does it fit to Gambia (for now), I am not sure about it.
I am not sure if I am lost the reality when I was in Gambia, talking with Gambians (I will not say Maslow again, I got too much reaction), but you are right, most Gambians are worrying about education, health, infrastructure, jobs as first priorities. Political rights, secularism are secondary. In my other post, please read, I mentioned about the mortality rates because of lack of health and educational services, which is causing more death than political deaths. So what is more important for Gambia. Political debates are mostly from the elite in Gambian society who are diaspora, rich, lawyers, businessman, average Gambians are not part of it. It is almost intellectual orgasm for some. I would say rural area, most of the women are not part of the political process. Because there is no platform and mechanism for them to be part of it. Decentralization of government structure may help.
Your simple is better fits Gambia very well. The system should not be very complex for the people. For now it is only limited to elite, and diaspora who don't even live in the country. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 02:11:30
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| TURK,You agree that different countries have different needs,Turkey is not The Gambia,Culture (that word again !) is not the same,thought processes are not the same,I agree with what you said earlier,models shouldn't be made to fit as in an off the shelf fix,so why on earth go with a party system ? your own words appear to contradict that ,you write "Political debates are mostly from the elite in Gambian society who are diaspora, rich, lawyers, businessman, average Gambians are not part of it. It is almost intellectual orgasm for some. I would say rural area, most of the women are not part of the political process. Because there is no platform and mechanism for them to be part of it." yet you agree with me as you write " Your simple is better fits Gambia very well. The system should not be very complex for the people" I am no expert on any subject but to develop a model that cannot possibly work effectivly because it is beyond the comprhension of the Average person in the country that cannot be the way to go. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 02:27:45
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I never I said they are the same, but culturally, socially and economically Turkey and Gambia have way more commons than Gambia and UK or any western countries. Anyway, with the Turkey example, I was trying to demonstrate that, liberal democracy was not a good fit for Turkey at times because its realities required different methodology. And, I strongly believe, Gambia should prioritize economic/social development which is similar to Turkish experience. I don't see any contradiction. Can you clarify where I contradict?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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