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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 12:36:36
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| Turkey suffered very badly due to the war,and was having a hard time to recover,this brought the TURKISH people ( http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php )together and they decided to do something about the problem,Turkey has also been part of the modernisation of countries in the past.The Gambia on the other hand is a geographic entity of different tribes who are quite content to remain that way and not become Gambian foremost,this somewhat negates development and binding peioples together in a common identifiable bond by country. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 13:57:10
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Touby
I am not trying to prove that Turkey is same as Gambia. Both have some commons and differences as well. As Moe mentioned earlier, it is beneficial for Gambians to learn from combination of other models and experiences. I do not have a pessimistic view. I think Gambians have accomplished a lot. One accomplishment is maintaining peace between tribes and different religions. Actually Turks may learn from Gambia to resolve inter-ethnic/religious conflicts. Turkey is still suffering from multi-ethnic conflict of Turks and Kurds. Turkey also had military interventions (In 1960, 1970, 1980, and post-modern intervention in 1997, and INTERNETvention in 2007. Also, Turks may not have tribes the way Gambia has but they have regionalism (They attached to local culture of different region, and migration from others region not welcome). Other one is conflict between religious folks and Stalinist secular. They also suffer from the attitude of elite, champaign socialists. My view is Gambia should follow the Turkey's path to develop first than democracy will fit nicely. Seem like most bantaba posters living in UK, USA or Europe proposing liberal democracy alternatives from west. What I am saying is Gambia is not necessarily fit this alternative. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 07 Jul 2010 14:00:10 |
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 15:42:31
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| I agree,complex western systems or models would not work for Gambia,the Turkish model may be an alternative,something clear and simple is what is required as there are vast differences between the "elite" (for want of a better word) and the "average" Gambian,although as you explained Turkey has problems based on Regions rather than tribal problems as exist in The Gambia,one thing that can still be said about The Gambia that is very important is that there is peace and toleration between tribes and religions,that is something that Gambians can be justly proud of.I dont think that this topic is of any interest to anyone else on bantaba as even MOE has given up (at the moment,but probably will post on this topic in his usual superior insulting rambling way )The politicos are not interested because it would deminish their personal importance,something that none of them want.You now can understand I think why I strongly dislike politics,there is never any conclusion to anything it all just hot air and talk.Anyway there are my and your thought to go into the pot,further discussion would not prove fruitful. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 07 Jul 2010 15:45:03 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 16:03:48
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Touby
Turkish model is,now, very complex and very similar to Europeans. As accession talks for EU continues, Turkey is more and more looking like Europeans. It is the process of integration of Turkish system to Europe. I mentioned the Turkey example, not for being model for Gambia but, its path can be a model for Gambia. My point was, like Turkey, Gambia needs to prioritize development first. They need social, economic development and political development can be on the shelf for a while. Once Gambia establish better socio-economic conditions for example, better health care, literacy rate, better gdp per capita, middle income class, better infrastructure, the political development will follow. I think too much political debates is obstacle for Gambia, for now, it is better to have a simpler process and focus on development. My arguement is more about 'time' and 'priority'. I think you do like 'politics', you just don't like 'politicians'. However, you so right about 'diminishing the importance' theory. Just one point. Great minds talk about 'ideals', others talk about 'issues', small people talk about 'personalities'. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 16:26:41
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Thanks, Job done then.   |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 07 Jul 2010 16:27:32 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 12:38:03
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This issue has been up a thousand times in different forms and approaches. But then that is what makes turk vital in Bantaba. He is a man of contradictions, resourceful yet his controversialist stance enriching … sometimes…. turk knows my position on this.
The contradiction is, on the one hand supporting a “Gambian model” and on the other measuring Gambia’s improvements by comparing her with other countries.
Toubab, came up with interesting structural reform ideas.
Let’s be mindful comparing two things having nothing in common. Hence it gives a false sense of “being left behind”. Left behind by whom? We are not competing with anybody or nation, nor share the same history or problems. The perception of “being left behind” by someone in a different race is like hoping to be a world champion in football whiles competing in a marathon event, fighting a loose battle.
Structural difficulty
The question of representation is very fundamental in identifying needs and finding adequate suitable solutions. Without a broad representation, including as many as possible it would be difficult to both identify and solve immediate problems. Development/improvement is dependent on participation, the higher the participation rates the better for achieving positive results. The people’s involvement is elementary to any meaningful improvement/development.
The ability to read and write English as the only criterion for electability is a contradiction. The best candidate is one that is well versed with local problems and needs. Abilities like reading and writing Arabic, local knowledge, social competence should be appropriate requirements, amongst others, for a parliamentarian. To broaden representation to include those that do not read and write English but have other qualities is a necessity. If the intention is to reduce the gap between central government policies and local community needs.
Moe,
I’ll let the policy and social engineers reflect on the way forward
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 13:32:21
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JANKO."Abilities like reading and writing Arabic"
Very useful I am sure if you are a religious schlor ,to represent people ,not reqired.
"local knowledge, social competence should be appropriate requirements, amongst others, for a parliamentarian."
Yes a requirement of importance
"The question of representation is very fundamental in identifying needs and finding adequate suitable solutions. Without a broad representation, including as many as possible it would be difficult to both identify and solve immediate problems. Development/improvement is dependent on participation, the higher the participation rates the better for achieving positive results. The people’s involvement is elementary to any meaningful improvement/development."
Yes,I think the word Essential would be more discriptive and accurate than elementary,
"To broaden representation to include those that do not read and write English but have other qualities is a necessity. "
Yes Vital.
"social engineers " means interferring politicians ( government) taking away personal choice.
So have we the basis for a Gambian model now JANKO ? |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 13:55:13
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Janko
I am not understanding you. What are you saying? It may not be black and white. There are lots of gray areas but social science is based on observation and comparisons. No?
let me see what
Ability to read and write in any language is essential and universal criterion for effective political interaction, Janko. It is not contradiction. You mentioned arabic, I did not know there are anything writen in arabic in Gambia other than Islamic text, and not political interaction is happening in arabic language. Written communication is essential, it is universal, pointing of written communication, as an issue and comparison is valid.
I am glad that you agree with me that representation is essential to identify the needs and finding adequate solutions.
My bring up de-centralization was about moving the power from central government to local is due to following issues;
- There is no effective communication channels. I repeat, reading and writing English (which is the only written language in Gambia and official language) is very important criterion and absolutely required and not a contradiction. Local language is used for oral communication. Do you think oral communication suffice for political interaction? Just look at Bantaba, how effective to have a 'common language' and 'common script' and 'platform' for us to communicate.
- Physical Barriers. TV, radio, internet not common. Keeping update of local people are big issue.
- Involvement, there are isolated groups like 'women', 'uneducated', 'rural population' to involve politics as the politics is happening in 'banjul' and 'center'. If the power and political agenda move to local, it maybe much easier to involve isolated groups into politics. Therefore our consensus of increased representation became reality.
My point is not about reducing the gap between central government policies and local community. My point is moving the power from central government to local government directly so that locals have access/influence on decision making process. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 08 Jul 2010 15:06:18 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 14:36:21
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Toubab1020
"JANKO."Abilities like reading and writing Arabic"
Very useful I am sure if you are a religious schlor, to represent people, not required."
It is required, not just because they can also read and write but also for their important role they play in the everyday reality of the communities. And that does not mean inability in Arabic would exclude anybody rather they would be integrated into governance for the sake of broadening the scope of representation.
“Yes, I think the word Essential would be more descriptive and accurate than elementary…” Using both would be a preferred choice, for the sake of clarity. Thanks
““Social engineers" means interfering politicians (government) taking away personal choice”, by providing up-to-date information. There is already a “Gambian model” on the making. All we need is policies to strengthen it. The base of such policies is good information (policy and social engineering) papers, studies, research, commission recommendation and reports etc.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 08 Jul 2010 15:04:00 |
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 19:04:56
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Janko.
OK we almost agree,I beg to differ on the language aspect.
I (and Turk) look forward to seeing the "Gambian Model" in the written word as soon as it is ready,bearing in mind from your point of view 2011 is not far off,I did not mean to correct you when you used elemental,as elements are essential to everything both words will reenforce one another. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 19:39:30
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toubab1020,
turk, knows very well why he had to hide that interesting information ... |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 08 Jul 2010 19:40:27 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 20:32:36
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sorry touby and janko
I totally missed the points about last a few posts and 'hiding the link' thingy. I am practical guy, it is already take some Phd to understand Janko's points now you have some kind of secret language. Treat me like 5 years old and explain again. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 08 Jul 2010 20:32:58 |
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 20:53:50
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| OK Turk,in your post above you have the words "Let me see what" in blue,if you click on those words they take you to this web address http://www.unesco.org/most/ghorraen.htm which is out of date,continue to the redirected page then you arrive at the current page which is the link I posted.I am not a computer boffin but I do know that blue coloured words will sometimes take you to a website,others may not know that information,hense Janko's confusion.You can of course use blue colour on bantaba in cyberspace,that will link to nothing. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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