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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2009 : 20:26:10
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For all you Africans Muslims who believe what you learn in the Quran without question, here is just a small snippet about the history of your so called religion in our beloved father's land [also used in another topic].
I have always said it is good to question and to do your own research rather than believe in any nonsense fed to you. Since it is evident that African muslims are ignorant about their own religion - judging by the regular postings on this site, this snippet which is less than 9 mins long summarizes what I and many others have been saying for years. I will not rest until this evil Arab cult is eradicated from the land of my forefathers. Any African Muslim [Gambian or otherwise] who opposes this [after seeing this small snippet and doing their further research] is not truely African.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT_RSDeAYjI
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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Momodou
Denmark
11735 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2009 : 21:09:18
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Tamsier, not every African Muslim is ignorant about the history of Islam. It has been stated to you in another posting that our Prophet Muhammad (PBH) "never owned any slaves". He is our example and not the slave drivers shown in the video. I believe religion (faith) is something private so believe what you believe and let others believe what they believe in.
No one can deny pictures in this video but the fact is that Muslims, Christians, Animists all took part in this dark part of African history. Slavery exists even this day in many places in Africa.
Two days ago was Africa Human Rights Day. Here is an interesting a quote from an article recently published in Foroyaa: http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8275
quote:
But really, who enslaved who? In truth, when the slave traders came to Africa, many of them anchored their boats on the shores and waited. Some times they did not even get down their boats. They just waited. And there snaking in the horizon was a long ant like line of tired, sweating, bleeding, black bodies - women, men and children - all in chains. Sold for precious commodities like a looking mirror, whigs, guns and gun powder, not to mention the captivating blend of the finest Scottish whiskey!
But did the slavery of Africans end with the abolition of the slave trade?
History now agrees that Africans were put in bondage by Africans. Without absolving the iniquity of those slave nations and their traders, Africans enslaved Africans. Africans chained Africans. And still in many places, in 21st century Africa, Africans are in chains!
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A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2009 : 21:26:43
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Valid points Momodou and an intriguing quote.
Tam needs help When i read some of the things he says i laugh out loud not the least hurt.Pathetic ! |
madiss |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2009 : 22:22:21
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Momodou,
The majority of Senegambia are muslims. It is the muslim establishment of Senegambia who have always covered up or twisted the facts in order to conceal the legacy of their religion. A good and recent example is Amath Jahou Bah and Alhaji Omar Taal. These two are virtually seen as saints in Senegambia. Yet, they had slaves and sold people for weapons, but this is never spoken of. In fact, it is frowned upon if you repeat it in society. The posting that you speak of regarding Muhammed and slavery, I believe I have dealt with thoroughly in other subjects over the years. If you read my question in that particular post, you will notice a degree of sarcasm in the way I posed the question [quoting from his own script]. You will also notice that, after I had posed the question, I never contributed to that posting. This is to avoid going round in circles because I had previously written and proven the Qurans condonement of slavery and other wicked deeds as well as Muhammed’s involvement in this ghastly trade in the name of jihad. You say 'no one can deny the pictures in this video..', I would not be so sure. It only takes one to come up with a conspiracy theory in order to defend the name of islam.
In summation, I have never denied pagan African kings involvement in slavery. Nor have I ever denied christian European's involvement in slavery. Unfortunately, these are the two that Senegambian and Africans Muslims like to talk about. They never mention Islam's involvement in slavery. When they do, they try to justify it by segregating the muslim slavers from the general muslim populous. Even the snippet you just directed me towards, said nothing about Arabs/islam slavery in Africa. It was far too busy talking about African and European slavers. Now, if this is not proof of the point I just made, I don't know what is. The Senegambian muslim establishment has been doing this for more than 1oo years and for the Arabs, for more than a thousand years. However, I am less concern about the Arabs and their lies in this regard. What I am more concern about is for the Senegambian muslim establishment to speak the truth rather than deceiving the future generation of our people.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 23 Oct 2009 22:27:41 |
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Momodou
Denmark
11735 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2009 : 22:49:45
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The Jihad of Al.Hajj Umar Taal and that of Maba were very recent (mid-nineteenth century) whilst slavery had been going on for centuries. I don't believe they were saints because some of those wars had other reasons than just spreading Islam.
To tell you the truth, I don't belong to any of those Senegambian Islamic brotherhoods so I cannot defend their actions.
I still look forward to read your book on the history of Senegambia in future. |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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dembis
Sweden
71 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 00:08:56
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| i cannot say that am suprise but at least accept for a moment that we africans are stupit. People like momodou should not denied this holocust because i keep reading bantabaa and it give me hope that their are still inteligent gambians leaving for now. I was personal impressed by momodou contribution to many topics here on bantabaa. He is smart though but dumb in his own african gambian way. Am sorry to say this. Do you think King leopold of belgium dont killllll more than six millionnnnn Africans ? Patrice lumumba`first speech as a prime minister of Congo said" i give you Belgians 48 hours to leaved my country". He also said " until we Africans can write our own side of the story". Tamsir we say no to all slave driver`s religion . Where was god when we Africans need him most ? where is him still now? Exp, Darfur : I thank him for making us stupid and inferior to other race. I believe `Lat doir was right not accept islam when serign Bamba offer him to stayed and believed in arabic heaven. He died as a hero at the end. Momodou please change your mind , you have lot of experience your country needs you and Africa the land of the ancestor. |
dembis |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 02:10:22
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Dembish,
I think Serers like you and I tend to be more patriotic about our African heritage compared to our Senegambian cousins. I do not want this statement to be views as tribalism because I hate tribalism and have always preach Africanism - working together for a common goal. Anyone who knows me including my Senegambian muslim brothers on bantaba if they really look inside themselves they would agree with that. Getting back to my point, the Serers, generally speaking have a long history, tradition and culture based on patriotic Africanism. They have fought off Islamic colonialism for almost a thousand years. The same cannot be said for many of the other tribes. As you implied there were many Senegambian pagan kings who not only fought fought off European invastion but also islamic colonialism during the colonial period. E.g. Buur Kumba Ndoffene Famak Joof as well as his name sake Buur Kumba Ndoffene Fa Ndep Joof, The great Boucary Ngoneh Joof, Majakhere Bessane etc etc. Because these were pagans but also sereres [though their tribal origin is less important, their pagan religion on the other hand is], they have never been afforded the same honour as that of Amat Jahou, Alhaji Omar etc by the Senegambian muslim establishment. In fact, talking about slavery, the first two in particular were never involved in the ghastly trade. Perhaps one can argue Kumba Ndoffene Fa ndep reigned much later so slavery would have been stopped, but for Kumba Ndoffene Famak [as well as Boucary], he was appauled by it even when he was a mere prince - long before his own corronation as king of sine. He defended his kingdom on both sides [European invasion and Islam]. As we all know [perhaps some don't], he was assasinated in 1871 by the French. It was not after his death that the French finally managed to gain totally control over the kingdom of Sine during the reign of Sanou Moon Faye. This is why he is still revered by the Serers of Sine. The same cannot be said for Amath Jahou [Maba] and Alhaji Omar as regards to slavery. They were highly involved in it. In fact, that's how they got most of their wealth and weapons to wage jihad. Because these two were some of the major contributors to mass conversion in Senegambia, the muslim establishment have remained silent on this matter and have afforded them the noble title of liberators from the tenticles of Europe under the banner of islam. This is not the truth, Amat Jahou Bah himself, had forged ties with both the French and the British [in the Gambia]. One of the most important treaties he signed with the British being that of Njie Kunda as well as his treasonous act against the king of Badibou in favour of Europe. You will not hear anyone from the muslim establishment mention this. To mention it in their presence is the ultimate sign of herecy.
To correct you about Lat Jorr Ngoneh Latir Jobe, he did convert to islam, but the reason was for military support.
Momodou,
You were right when you said:
'The Jihad of Al.Hajj Umar Taal and that of Maba were very recent (mid-nineteenth century) whilst slavery had been going on for centuries'.
As stated above when I gave examples, I used the word 'recent'. What you say is true, however, you failed to realise that, all these recent jihads are a product of islam in our continent. The Arabs and their African converts are the root of why slavery catapulted to another stratosphere. Maba only inherited their legacy.
'I don't believe they were saints because some of those wars had other reasons than just spreading Islam'.
I couldn't agree more. In fact, I have said the same thing before on this very site. However, try saying these things to the Muslim mafia of Senegambia or even in Senegal where they gather in abundance and see where that gets you.
Slavery is only a part of the legacy of islam in Africa. Mass murder in the name of religion, rape, domestication of women, etc, are also factors that cannot be ignored. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 24 Oct 2009 02:31:21 |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 12:30:19
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I have read your comments and you appear to be very confused and poisonous to the naive mind Don't you realised that all your references are BACK TO DARK AGES AND HISTORY WITHOUT SUBSTANCE FOR DISTORTION AND DIS-ORIENTATION THAT ONLY SUITS YOUR PURPOSE TO DISCREDIT ONE OF THE GREATEST RELIGION EVER Where do you want to take us on your African patriotism What am hearing from you is all about "HATRED, RACISM, TRIBALISM & PAGANISM")
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT RELIGION OPTIONS DO I HAVE IF I DON'T BECOME A MUSLIM OR PRACTICE ISLAM WHAT IS THE BEST RELIGION FOR AFRICANS AND WHY BE FAIR AND BALANCE AND STOP CASTIGATING ISLAM PLEASE FOR ITS JUST INTER-FAITH DISCUSSION
REMINDING YOU THAT WE HAVE A PENDING TOPIC AND THIS TOPIC IS MOVED AS REALTED TO THAT Bantaba General topic: What a shame. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 17:27:03
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Tamsier, I was beginning to give you some measure of respect for you vast knowledge in senegambian culture but I never expected you to resort to such desperate measures in your quest to continue waging your war against islam. In the interest of full disclosure I think it is important for Bantaba to know that your source is an Evangelical Christian and an ordained minister (NOT A LEGITIMATE SCHOLAR) whose primary motive is to dissuade people from becoming muslims. So it is natural for him to refer to "Islam or Muslims" as "Muhammedan." The british used the same tactic during the colonial days and it did not work. Up to this day, our legal codes refer to Islam and Muhammedan. So it is against that background that, his so called research cannot be trusted.
Furthermore, most of what you have in that youtube clip are paintings and not pictures so it is important we get that point. I dont want to continue belabouring this point but you have confirmed everyone's suspicions when it comes to Islam. I hope you find guidance one day.
http://www.lst.ac.uk/index.php?pageid=216 |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 19:35:16
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Folks, let Tamsier continue on his vain attempt to redicule Islam or Muslims. This is why i always state to him, he should the arrigance and self-promotion in terms telling us what African muslims know or don't know.
Who the hell he is to say that, African muslim don't know Islam? what a load of rubbish. Dembish, look, slavery was practise by all cultures. so in as much we are angry that white skin people enslave blacks, let us look at this things rationaly instead hiding behind pseudo anger against Islam. Tamsier can huff and puff for we care, he cannot lecture us what is Islam or what it is not. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 21:01:15
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Exactly as I said above when referring to Momodou’s posting:
‘You say 'no one can deny the pictures in this video..', I would not be so sure. It only takes one to come up with a conspiracy theory in order to defend the name of islam’.
John Alembillah actually came from a Muslim background. Most of his family are Muslims , some are Christians and some practice pure African animism. Because of his mix faith background and a former Muslim himself, he has spent years trying to bring peace and cohesion between Western Christians and the Muslim world. But most importantly, he is a well respected scholar who not only studied Christianity but Islam as well and worked in many parts of the world. Apart from all these factors, he is an African. We all cry out we want African to write our Africans history rather than leaving it to outsiders. Is this the kind of reaction African historians and up and coming African historians will get when they [refer to reliable sources and documents] write? Just because you find it offensive does not mean the facts should be curtailed. This is not history. When one is forced to hide the facts so not to offend, the written history book becomes unreliable. It becomes unreliable because the facts have been censored. Is this the kind of history book you want to teach our children, our children’s children or their descendants yet to born? Sometimes history is not pretty. But we can only move forward if we all know the facts based on collaborative evidence from all the available sources. In fact, many of his sources came from Arab Muslim world -; and for modern day slavery, the Latin maxim ‘res ipsor liquitor’ [the fact speaks for itself] applies. In other words, slavery is still practiced in parts of the Arab world – you don’t even have to look further afield – our neighbour Mauritania is at it as well. I oppose all types of slavery. I have said this before. In fact, months ago, I opened a new discussion stating my repulsion of slavery in Mauritania and my involvement in ending this ghastly trade. If I remember correctly, apart from Momodou and very few others, no one joined us in expressing their repulsion to this ghastly trade. I appreciate we don’t all contribute to all topics, but when slavery has been going on in door step for years and still is, sometimes silence is the same as condoning it. In any case, my character and opposition to slavery is untarnished.
The images you see on this video are not fabrications. These old paintings were from Arab archives. As for the picture of King Faisal of Arabia with his black slave in the turban and other European dignitaries is as recent as 1919. There is no ‘touch-up’. Unless we accept the facts for what they are we will continue to delude ourselves and that would get us nowhere.
One last thing. I am tired of being accusing of hating or ridiculing Muslims. How many times do I have to say I don’t hate Muslims? For crying out loud I have Muslims in my family. How can I hate them? Further, I don’t hate Santanfara, I don’t hate Madiba, Momodou, Mansasulu, Kobo or even the Muslim establishment of Senegambia. Why should I hate you? Because you are muslims? To believe that is the most ridiculous idea I have ever heard. For the record, some of my relatives are at the top of the Muslim mafia of Senegambia that I speak of. Not mere followers, but part and parcel of this establishment. I hate their concealment and distortion of the facts not them. If people cannot differentiate between ‘Islam’ and ‘Muslim’, that is their problem not mine.
Kobo,
I will locate for you the discussions you ask for and I will post them in the other topic. Since you are too lazy to seek it for yourself eventhough it is right here on bantaba, I will hand feed you. There are loads of them so give me time. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 24 Oct 2009 23:23:26 |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 01:11:59
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quote:
Originally posted by tamsier
My hatred of islam has been justified [with facts] on several instances. I refer you to the religious section. This dangerous religion muust be curtailed at whatever cost. It is the religion of the Arabs who do not even respect the life of their own people never mind the life of others. This is instilled in the Quran and practiced by many who believes what they have been told without doing their own research. This is the reason why I believe the muslim fanatics are the greater threat than the BNP.
Kobo,
I will locate for you the discussions you ask for and I will post them in the other topic. Since you are too lazy to seek it for yourself eventhough it is right here on bantaba, I will hand feed you. There are loads of them so give me time.
WHY HATE ISLAM, WHY ISLAM IS DANGEROUS & WHAT ARE THE FACTS? PLEASE JUSTIFY & REFER TO THE RELIGIOUS SECTIONSWHAT IS INSTILLED IN QURAN AND "PRACTISED BY MANY WHO BELEIVE WHAT THEY TOLD WITHOUT DOING THEIR OWN RESEARCH"
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MUSLIM AND ISLAM
Please forward them to related Bantaba General topic; What a shame under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?whichpage=3.73333333333333&TOPIC_ID=8277#54689
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Edited by - kobo on 25 Oct 2009 01:32:43 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 05:40:43
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| I can see that you are truely bitter about the fact that your fellow African brothers And sisters have chosen Islam over africanism. You seem to be happy and contend with your believes or lack thereof. You can try to paint your source a former Muslim all you want but the link i posted tells us all What he is-an evangelical christian and ordained minister with an agenda. I don't care if he was Muslim yesterday. what matters is that he is not credible. I hope by now you will see how desperate you are really getting. Frankly it is borderline absurd, insane and laughable. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 07:41:30
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'You can try to paint your source a former Muslim all you want but the link i posted tells us all What he is-an evangelical Christian and ordained minister with an agenda....... I don't care if he was Muslim yesterday.'
Ah! So typical. Now you found out that he was actually a former Muslim you decided to change your tone. So so typical. Unfortunately for you, the link that you posted only gave a small summary of his life. Since it is mainly a Christian institution, it does not find the need to refer to John's Islamic past when giving his synopsis. This threw you off guard and you did not for a minute think he was first a Muslim. Although the internet is a valuable source, sometimes it is not always reliable as I have always said. Books/academic papers etc, in tangible form are very important. I take it you have not read his books.
Further, this video is in response to his book, the issues here are collaborated by various authors [some of them Arabs] based on documentary evidence.
You should care whether he was a Muslim yesterday. If anything, he is in the best position to give a balance and factual truth, because he had lived and experience both sides of the fence [Islam and Christianity]. It can be argued that, he is perhaps more credible and objective than a Christian who had never followed Islam or a Muslim who had never followed Christianity. Therefore, your rebut does not 'hold water'. What you link also failed to tell you was that, not only is most of his family Muslims, but his immediate family are Muslims. He spent years learning the Quran and Islamic history dinned into him. When he finally decided to convert from Islam to Christianity, he was excommunicated by his family. I will not be pushed to write the biography of John on this site. I have neither the time nor the inclination. John is only one of many historians/academic sources; the documented evidence speaks volumes and does not need John's elaborations.
Kobo,
Why do you like repeating yourself especially when people tell you they will do something?
Anyway, as I promised I have located some of the relevant links for your delectation. You will find all these in the other topic, the topic under which you originally asked the question. If at any time you choose to rebut, please come up with book, author, archive, academic paper, etc. I don't just want copying and pasting from the internet unless it is an approved academic paper with the author's name and sources. The author would normally provide his sources at the end. I am tired of reading second hand unapproved works copied and pasted from the net. Further, I have also added a special link just for you explaining the difference between ‘Islam’ and ‘Muslim’ since you don’t know the difference. Call yourself a Muslim!
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 25 Oct 2009 08:15:00 |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 14:33:17
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Madiba,
I don’t know what your point is. You asked ‘How abt these:’ then simply copied and pasted. I don’t know what point you are trying to make. Anyway, I have looked at your links and here are my analyses:
The first link is not an academic paper. It is a link about a converted Muslim being interviewed. The website looks cheap and tacky. It lacks style and respectability. The grammatical errors were astounding. Sometimes we all make grammatical errors but if you are going to publish a professional website try to avoid grammar and spelling mistakes –, use the service of a copy editor if you have to. As we have just seen from Mansasulu’s example above, second hand copying and pasting can be dangerous. Having read the interview, I was left bored, confused and a feeling of an anti Jewish propaganda. He has not written any published and approved work than I can see. May be I have missed it. He got ‘dawa’ which in some way is similar to John’s evangelical mission work something Mansasulu tried to used to discredit his work until he found out he was actually a former Muslim. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Unlike Mansasulu, I have no problem with that. As long as the evidence has been provided and the evidence is beyond question, the author’s religious background though important - because it can dictate the style of writing, the mass unquestionable evidences would cancel out any personal bias. If he has written a book or academic work, please do tell me the published work quoting chapter and verse, sources etc. if I am intrigued due to new evidence [that seems to have miraculously escaped the profession], then I will buy a copy of the book. If I am convinced beyond reasonable doubt, then I will take back everything I have said about Islam. This person it seems has a reputation for speaking at ‘Speaker’s Corner’ in London Hyde Park. For those of you who don’t live in London, or have never been to London, Hyde Park in is in the affluent area in the London the West End. There is a special corner within this huge park designed for anyone to go an express their opinions on anything they like. You don’t have to be anyone or anything to speak in that corner. You can utter any rubbish you like in line with English Law – i.e. not to insight hatred, etc [something that Islamic fundamentalists have had problems abiding by over the years and had resulted in affray]. Taking anything as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth from these speeches without verifying it [again do your own research to cross reference facts] can lead to serious problems. This is not a reliable, because you don’t need to be a scholar to speak in that corner.
Your second link is from Wikipedia. It is about the same person [above]. Although I have always maintained that wiki should be used as a starting point when researching something -, but should never be viewed as the whole truth and nothing but the truth [the Wikipedia generation who like to copy and paste], at least I was able to follow the wiki link with interest and was not easily bored reading it compared to the first link above. However, wiki virtually copied everything from the first link. Nothing new has been added. I still don’t see any published and approved work and still do not know his qualification.
The third link is also from Wikipedia. However, it is about a different person. My concerns about wiki still holds [it should only be used as a starting point]. Again, having read your link, there is no published work by this individual. If there is, I didn’t see it. However, at least he does have a recognisable qualification [assuming we believe wiki] in spite of his past troubled life. Unfortunately, it is merely an undergraduate - he did not progressed to post graduate and Master and have not done the prerequisite research work, in order to become an approved historian. As such, he is not credible unless he has achieved all the necessary qualifications but wiki failed to mention them. I am however baffled about the time period of his course and his approval to teach in a Muslim school as well as appointment to the post of imam. The period is far too short and would perhaps raise a question about the authenticity of his qualification/ whether he is qualified to become a teacher or even worst imam. In any case, I see no approved published work.
In summary, neither of these two has produced any authorised published work based on the unreliable sources [your links] you have proved. Further, they have not acquired the relevant qualifications to be considered scholars in their field [judging by your sources]. Therefore, you have not produced anything new by pasting these links here.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 25 Oct 2009 14:36:55 |
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