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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2009 : 00:17:23
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There you go Moe,
I am in no way tribalist. This is where you lot get it all wrong. In your narrow perception, it is normal to keep quiet about such wrongs as Yaya is indulged in. If he plays the tribal card, anyone who dares mention that is also playing ethnic. You got this one very seriously wrong. I am not tribal, will never be. It is Yaya Jammeh's playing of the tribal card that we want to address for clean remedy. Don't waste your bullets. I am under no obligation to discuss my person here but quite at libety to express my views about a country I so much care about. My tribal orientation is not the subject of this thread. Choose if you wish, another topic to expose my tribal reality or whatever you call it.
But this bit about Yaya Jammeh appointing Momodou Sanyang based on them sharing one tribal Jola clan, say if that is not true.
Again, this is no English grammar show. Translator, interpreter or what not. The fact is that Momodou Sanyang served as Jola news announcer for so many years. When Jammeh came to power, he quickly jumped the queue for normal promotion to become what he now is. That is not normal, good fellow.
In search of rationale, it only emerged that Sanyang got his job through the ethnic Jola line of favour. That is a matter of public interest. Gambia Radio and TV is not private investment of neither Mr Jammeh nor Mr Sanyang. With all the looted money Jammeh is fit to create another parallel TV and radio station. He is free to appoint Momodou Sanyang as Director as he wishes with private investment.
Your type of people are making life strange in Gambia. You encourage Mr Jammeh to go wrong and pick your weapons of destruction to defend his misconducts. No, not in Gambia any more.
Can we focus on the position of Gambian president (not the person of Yaya Jammeh) and the position of Director Gambia Radio and TV. It does not matter who occupies these two positions at given intervals. They will be wrong to take appointment on the basis of tribe or thin line of favour. Take better look at matters at hand and stay away from thos childish manners. |
Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 05 Oct 2009 00:41:59 |
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Dembish
Gambia
284 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2009 : 00:31:03
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| The opinion that disgust me most is the stance of certain APRC supporters that jawara did so, so and so, therefore its ok if Yaya jammeh is doing it.THEN WHAT IS THE JUSTIFICATION OF JAMMEH'S COUP.In 1994 i was strongly advocating for jammeh on the ground that change was overdue and Jammeh should be given a chance,but sadly,very sadly for that matter, he was given the chance and he blew it. |
There is no egg without a chicken, and no chicken without egg. |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2009 : 15:26:35
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Dembish,
There lies the bare nakedness of Mr Jammeh's deception. He used guns to scare away elected representatives of people. He could have played it decent and good by forming a political party. His ugly intention has been (and is) to play the bad bandit game.
After more than 15 years now, the true colours of Yaya Jammeh show very clear. We as Gambians must not permit being fooled more than enough.
If you had the chance listening to the scrap speech Yaya delivered at UN, he talked about freedom and fairness in ways diametrically opposite his beliefs and manners.
Gambians of all persuasion need to wake up. There is no good leaving Yaya to ruin our nation in the name of development.
What, did I hear development? |
Karamba |
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Jangjang
Austria
62 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2009 : 18:36:25
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This is a very intresting dialog on the internet about:
Tribalism in Africa
A dialog from the AGE-L
30 April 1995
Date: 29-APR-1995 16:28
From:Stephen Isabirye peacetoallhomosapiens <waithakh@db.erau.edu
Description: Tribalism in Africa
President Moi of Kenya has characterized tribalism as a cancer. This is an accurate description of a demoralizing challenge that we face in Africa. As an urban raised African I too saw tribalism as an evil that we have to overcome. Increasingly lately I have come to regard tribalism both as a cancer and also a tool that can be used to propel Africa to a new dimension of development.
The majority of Africans are not able or willing to forsake their tribal allegiances so what do we do with this mind set. How can we channel this tribal energy into a national mainstream. We need to understand the tribes before we impose nationalism on them. Tribes are a contradiction in todays Africa they are an evil if your tribe is not in power and a benefit if your tribe is in power. This is due to the nature of our political and government systems whereby there are no checks and balances. This fosters a climate of absolute power resting on the Executive and by extension to the Executive tribe. So what should be done?
The first step to getting rid of an ailment is an acurate diagnosis and an admission by the patient that he has something that ails him. Once the diagnosis and admission have been made then a course of treatment is initiated that allows healing to begin. We need to admit that Africans are by nature tribalistic and this in itself is not inherently evil. Fact: tribes had institutions and systems that catered for the welfare of all the tribal members. Could it be that African States by totally disregarding tribal institutions and systems have weakened themselves? Could it be if you weaken the family you weaken the nation? Africans traditionally belonged to extended families, which in turn belonged to a clan, and which in turn belonged to a tribe. In our haste to make the absurd partitioned Africa (Berlin Conference and the partition of Africa) into nations we chose to totally disregard this established socio-political order to our own peril. So we have tried and failed at making the great leap from individual tribal members to national citizens. For one to have allegiance to a nation the benefits must outweigh those of belonging to a tribe. In most African nations you are defined as a citizen only in paper your primary designation is that of an ethnic group. For example on paper you might be Rwandanese but your benefits or ill fate is determined by whether you are Hutu or Tutsi. This schizophrenic national mind set permeates Africa and its denial only compounds the problem.
African States need to form governments and institutions that have their power base in the tribal institutions because this is where the real power emanates from. i.e. Most Africans respect and have primary allegiance to the tribal structure. The central government is viewed as an outside force that is often hostile and not relevant. I submit that the national government would have more legitimacy if all tribes were represented. All issues in government would be examined using dual standards; a tribal and a national standard. Balance both interests. In most parliaments an upper house should be formed consisting of statesmen who command the most respect and support from each tribe. All tribes would be designated two members very much like the US Senate. This group will balance the State interests versus the tribal interests. An equal representation will ensure that the rights and interests of minority tribes are not trampled upon by majority tribes.
Africa has tribes for better or for worse. If given lemons make lemon juice. It is the hand we have been dealt let us play it to our advantage; turn our cancer into HEALTH. Fellow Africans let me know what you think.
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 13:33:31 -0400
Sender: The African Global Experience <AGE-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: "Muzi Dlamini (GE)" <dlamini@SUNTAN.ENG.USF.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199504300344.XAA19310@suntan.eng.usf.edu>
Excellent insight Mr Asabrye, that was a thought provoking post. Tribalism is the root and fabric of the African society. It is where we derive a sense of pride in being African. I consider myself more of a Swazi than a citizen of Swaziland, in the same way a Zulu is more of a Zulu than he is a South African citizen, and a Ndebele is more Ndebele than they are Zimbabwean/south african. A Shona is more Shona than they are Zambians/Zimbabwean. Tribal belonging is valued more than national identity. I cannot begin to understand the origin of the
beliefs and values of the Nationalist leaders who have been trying to implement a Eurocentric system of government that ignores our tribalism. Although I agree with the nationalist ideology that we are one and we need to be united as a people. I do not understand their notion of nationalism that define "nations" through colonial borders. I do not understand how they think such borders which sometimes divide tribes into different nationalities could bring about national solidarity. We need to take advantage of our strong tribal ties to create a grassroots democracies that will derive power from tribal belonging.
N.B. Please refer to Swaziland's Tinkundla(gives regional authority back to the chiefs) system of democracy, I would like to know what you think about it.
Message-Id: <199504301828.UAA21842@cismsun.univ-lyon1.fr>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 95 14:27 EDT
Subject: Re: Tribalism in Africa (fwd)
From: "Joel VIGNON" <JVIGNON@CLEMSON.EDU>
I agree with most of the view presented about tribalism in Africa. Since the independances we have tried to make abstaction of tribalism and give precedence to the concept of citizenship. I guess this was, for our leaders, a way to model Africa after the west and foster her development. In my opinion two main mistakes were made:
1. western countries are homogeous In fact most of them have a chamber in their Congress or Parlement tha t gives equal power to all regions (tribes?) on the decisions of the countries. I equate western geographical regions with African tribes because maybe with few exception, that I do not know :=), there is a unique relation between a tribe and a geographical area.
2. legitimacy of a goverment by institutions I have a personal feeling, maybe I do not express this very well, that a western goverment is more a government of content (the institutions) than a government of process (consensual agreement). It is hard to mak e institutions, that are by definition static, on a structure when most of the decisions are taken after "palaver" and consensus.
This is why I think with the other netters who expressed this idea that something should be done to integrate the tribal system into the state government, in the first place, and ultimately into an African government. The importance of an African government at a higher level finds, in my opinion, a legitimacy in the fact that, unlike other regions of the world, the limits of the African states does not correspond to tribal limits. For instance, the border between Benin and Nigeria separates Yoruba families. The Beninois side speaks French as an "office" language, the Nigerian side speaks English. At the first sight they look very different, but the fact that they are under the traditionnal authority of the same chiefs make any custom control between the two border by the respective states impossible to maintain. The same pattern repeats itself between virtually all African countrie s which makes an African government indispensable.
Dr Kwame N'Krumah, first President of Ghana and one of the greatest supporters of panafricanism, made some interesting studies about all this. He emphazised the necessity of the effective involvement of all ethnic groups to the development of Africa and African countries. A good question to answer is why his work and ideas have not had more impact not only on other African governments but also in the diaspora. Ultranationalisms? Selfish interests? Manoueuvres of western countries willing to maitain their "own share" of the great continent? The debat e is open on this question. But a good understanding of those reasons is necessary to improve anything in the way Africa is governed today.
I also think that, nowadays, the problem is complicated by the existen ce of big cities and the exodus from the villages. Since those cities are influenced by the west, will a city like Lagos, Nigeria, one of the mo st populated cities of the world, be under a tribal goverment, a western- like government or an harmonious mix.
I hope I've transmitted my opinion of the complexity and uniqueness of African politics.
Finally, a great debate!
Joel Vignon
jvignon@clemson.edu
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2009 : 19:34:49
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Jangjang;This is an excellent piece,thanks for posting although 1995 I think that it is true today as it was then,the paragraph that caught my eye was:
"The majority of Africans are not able or willing to forsake their tribal allegiances so what do we do with this mind set. How can we channel this tribal energy into a national mainstream. We need to understand the tribes before we impose nationalism on them. Tribes are a contradiction in todays Africa they are an evil if your tribe is not in power and a benefit if your tribe is in power. This is due to the nature of our political and government systems whereby there are no checks and balances. This fosters a climate of absolute power resting on the Executive and by extension to the Executive tribe. So what should be done?"
The discussion then carries on but that paragraph in my mind gives a starting point for progress
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2009 : 20:16:31
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Good post there Jangjang.
Toubab1020,
This one signposts possible remedy to the rampant tribal display of Yaya Jammeh in Gambia:
"The first step to getting rid of an ailment is an acurate diagnosis and an admission by the patient that he has something that ails him. Once the diagnosis and admission have been made then a course of treatment is initiated that allows healing to begin. We need to admit that Africans are by nature tribalistic and this in itself is not inherently evil. Fact: tribes had institutions and systems that catered for the welfare of all the tribal members."
Taking the Gambian experience into account a good question to ask is about how our two presidents played the tribal card. Jawara was seen catering for a multi-ethnic Gambian society. Some of his own ethnic members acused him of neglecting the Mandinka ethnic group when it came to allocation of public office. With the experience of Jammeh, though his tribe the Jola form a minority, he decides allocating the majority of key public positions to the Jola tribe. It was easier for Jawara to face his tribe and to accept every cast of blame raised about not playing the tribal card as they would have expected.
In present day Gambia, the tribal card is openly played by Jammeh yet his blind defenders want us keep quiet about that. Why can't they accept that Jammeh is playing the tribal Jola card and then face it.
It is not fair that a minority tribe Jola puts whole society down to manifest the Jola power play and for everyone to feel right. That is the big issue at hand needing free and fair discussion. |
Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 05 Oct 2009 22:40:16 |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2009 : 21:25:20
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Karamba.as you know I hate politics,although this topic is posted under politics,my quotation taken from the posting by Janjang relates to development only,(I am sorry I did not make that clear at the beginning), and as such tribalism is a part due to established structures.
I will not critise any particular tribe, that is nothing at all to do with those outside the culture of the country where tribalism as opposed to nationalism exists, consequently it is none of my business.It is true to say that when Gordon Brown became prime minister in the UK MANY senior posts were allocated to people from Scotland,even in the Western World things maybe are not so different !.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2009 : 22:55:44
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| Good of you Toubab!! Don't be a small mind. |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2009 : 23:39:28
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quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
Karamba.as you know I hate politics,although this topic is posted under politics,my quotation taken from the posting by Janjang relates to development only,(I am sorry I did not make that clear at the beginning), and as such tribalism is a part due to established structures.
I will not critise any particular tribe, that is nothing at all to do with those outside the culture of the country where tribalism as opposed to nationalism exists, consequently it is none of my business.It is true to say that when Gordon Brown became prime minister in the UK MANY senior posts were allocated to people from Scotland,even in the Western World things maybe are not so different !.
Toubab1020,
Corruption, Embezzlement, and Nepotism are all English words. There is reason to suggest that they operate somewhere in full action. To imagine a society free from the terrible defects of mankind is the biggest of utopia.
There is no call for perfection in human dealings. We learn as we grow. |
Karamba |
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Jangjang
Austria
62 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 00:03:08
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I like this paragraph:
"This is why I think with the other netters who expressed this idea that something should be done to integrate the tribal system into the state government, in the first place, and ultimately into an African government. The importance of an African government at a higher level finds, in my opinion, a legitimacy in the fact that, unlike other regions of the world, the limits of the African states does not correspond to tribal limits. For instance, the border between Benin and Nigeria separates Yoruba families. The Beninois side speaks French as an "office" language, the Nigerian side speaks English. At the first sight they look very different, but the fact that they are under the traditionnal authority of the same chiefs make any custom control between the two border by the respective states impossible to maintain. The same pattern repeats itself between virtually all African countrie s which makes an African government indispensable."
How can we apply this to The Gambia for a future model of African Democracy, I call it "AfroCracy".
Can we have a two tier system that complements each other such as the upper house and the lower house.
1. The upper house will be headed by the Head Chief. The lower house headed by a president as we know it now.
2. The head chief will be elected by the chiefs.
3. The chiefs will be elected by the Alkalos from each tribe or administrative area.
4.The Alkalos will be elected by compound heads/family representatives.
5.The compound heads will be elected by the family.
6. Both elections will be held at the time.
I think this idea existed before the western people set foot in Africa and divided us. We do not have to live in denial that tribalism exist in Africa and we all know western democracy is not working for us. Correct me if I am wrong.
Let us think of other ideas, I know tribalism is a very unconfortable and trivial matter to discuss.
I like this too
"Africa has tribes for better or for worse. If given lemons make lemon juice. It is the hand we have been dealt let us play it to our advantage; turn our cancer into HEALTH. Fellow Africans let me know what you think."
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 00:18:17
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| Define the Upper and Lower Houses, their functions, powers and limitations, then take it from there. Are you seriously putting the authority of tribal chiefs above government? |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 00:21:44
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Janjang.As you say "I know tribalism is a very unconfortable and trivial matter to discuss" I would strongly disagree with that statement,I think that it is not trivial at all but VERY important and the FIRST subject to address,in order to acertain if progress (if it wanted by the people) is to take place in Africa.
ONLY Africans can decide their future,dispite all the "help" that is offered by others outside Africa.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Jangjang
Austria
62 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 00:25:04
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Their functions, powers and limitations will be decided by the constitution. This open to debate.
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 00:38:01
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Oh Dear,The English do love messing about with words so I decided that I would have a nose around for the word CORRUPTION and I found loads and loads of stuff,indicating that there are many definitions and not only One, tak a look at this for instance:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt200203/jtselect/jtcorr/157/15716.htm
After finding this Article I gave up on the words Embezzlement and Nepotism.
My Brain hurts now so going to bed!!
quote:
Originally posted by Karamba
quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
Karamba.as you know I hate politics,although this topic is posted under politics,my quotation taken from the posting by Janjang relates to development only,(I am sorry I did not make that clear at the beginning), and as such tribalism is a part due to established structures.
I will not critise any particular tribe, that is nothing at all to do with those outside the culture of the country where tribalism as opposed to nationalism exists, consequently it is none of my business.It is true to say that when Gordon Brown became prime minister in the UK MANY senior posts were allocated to people from Scotland,even in the Western World things maybe are not so different !.
Toubab1020,
Corruption, Embezzlement, and Nepotism are all English words. There is reason to suggest that they operate somewhere in full action. To imagine a society free from the terrible defects of mankind is the biggest of utopia.
There is no call for perfection in human dealings. We learn as we grow.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Jangjang
Austria
62 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 00:43:07
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Hi Toubab
Many African are in total denial about tribalism, even though we all belong to one. If tribe is mentioned you are simply leballed as tribalist or backward minded, yet still it is affecting us every day.
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