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lurker
509 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 23:11:01
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THIS BELOW WILL UPSET MANY. IS THIS BANTABA STILL CAPABLE OF PROPER DEBATE? I HOPE SO.
I FEAR WHAT IS ABOUT TO BE WRITTEN ON THIS FORUM.
THINK BEFORE YOU RESPOND ,PLEASE.
I WAS NOT GOING TO START THIS BUT I TRUST THE MEMBERS TO DEBATE AS I KNMOW THERE ARE POINTS WITHIN TO BE DISCUSSED.
THERE IS NO PURPOSE SERVED IN USING IT AS AN ANTI-ISRAEL PLATFORM.
YOU CAN START A THREAD ON THAT ONE ANYTIME.
MAYBE I SHOULD SAY SORRY IN ADVANCE.
ANYWAY. READ ON...........
'In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: who lost Europe?'
Here is the speech of Geert Wilders, Chairman, Party for Freedom, the Netherlands, at the Four Seasons, New York, introducing an Alliance of Patriots and announcing the Facing Jihad Conference in Jerusalem.
Dear friends:
Thank you very much for inviting me.
I come to America with a mission. All is not well in the old world. There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic. We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe. This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West. The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe.
First I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe. Then, I will say a few things about Islam. To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem.
The Europe you know is changing.
You have probably seen the landmarks.. But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world. It is the world of the parallel society created by?Muslim mass-migration.
All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen. And if they are, they might regret it. This goes for the police as well. It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children. Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead. With mosques on many street corners. The shops have signs you and I cannot read. You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity. These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics. These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe. These are the buildin g-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe, street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.
There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe. With larger congregations than there are in churches. And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region. Clearly, the signal is: we rule.
Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam, Marseille and Malmo in Sweden. In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim. Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods. Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities.
In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims.
Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils. In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims. Non-Muslim women routinely hear 'whore, whore.' Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin.
In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin. The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity.
In England Sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves. Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels, because he was drinking during the Ramadan.
Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II. French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya, Israel. I could go on forever with stories like this. Stories about Islamization.
A total of fifty-four million Muslims now live in Europe. San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now. Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.
Now these are just numbers. And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate. But there are few signs of that. The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France. One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks. The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate. Muslims demand what they call 'respect.' And this is how we give them respect. We have Muslim official state holidays.
The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept Sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority. We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey.
Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots. Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus. I call the perpetrators 'settlers'. Because that is what they are. They do not come to integrate into our societies, they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al-Islam. Therefore, they are settlers.
Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries. Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored. I
The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet. His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized. Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem. But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages - at the same time. Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed. Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza. If it is good for Islam, it is good. If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.
Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion. Sure, it has a God, and a hereafter, and 72 virgins. But in its essence Islam is a political ideology. It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person. Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life. Islam means 'submission.' Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is Sharia. If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.
Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world,' and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran. The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor. I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times. I support Israel. First, because it is the Jewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz, second because it is a democracy, and third because Israel is our first line of defense.
This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance. Israel is facing the front lines of jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan, Lebanon, and Aceh in Indonesia. Israel is simply in the way. The same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.
The war against Israel is not a war against Israel. It is a war against the West. It is jihad. Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us. If there would have been no Israel, Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest. Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.
Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities. But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values. On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam. They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed. The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning. It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination. If they can get Israel, they can get everything. So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'. In my country, the Netherlands, 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II. And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat. Yet there is a danger greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing. The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine. An Islamic Europe means a Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for America - as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs. With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone t o preserve the heritage of Rome, Athens and Jerusalem.
Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts. My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives. All throughout Europe American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish. My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians. We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe's children in the same state in which it was offered to us. We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams. Future generations would never forgive us. We cannot squander our liberties. We simply do not have the right to do so.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 00:10:02
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Let me see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders
quote:
The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept Sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority. We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey.
Funny, in Germany there are, I think, 5 Turkish members of parliemant. One is the co-charmain of Green Party of Germany, others are from leftist party. Non-of them are conservative. They all have union background and leftist. Has nothing to do with islam, other than being from a country who has the majority of muslims. So these secularist, it is because they are Turkish, labeled as 'muslim'! That is hilarious. Me thinks this this dude is more dangerous to European society than Muslims in General.
Europe already proven to have more dangerous personalities in near history. Franco, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Karadzic, Milosevic, Neo-Nazi. European history is more bloodier than any other nation in the world. Jews were not victim of Muslims, they were victim of Europeans, see Holocoust, inqusition etc...
To answer the question, NO I DO NOT SEE ANY TRUTH IN THIS.
But really, this articles insults Islam and muslims, so lurk, what do you want us to debate. Do you want us to debate that our prophet is not pedophile. Or do you want us to talk about the israel. I mean your article touches on many different area. What do you want us to discuss. Give us clear discussion points. Tell us.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 29 Sep 2009 01:16:42 |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 06:54:25
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Turk, I don't condone Hon. Wilders views on religion and politics, especially his understanding of Middle Eastern politics.
However, I acknowledge his views on immigration... when i put myself in his shoes.
I'm imagining 15 years in the near future: I would not be comfortable with with having 25% of Serekunda's population Chinese. Especially if the Chinese refuse to assimilate and insist on having the whole country -speak Mandarin (or provide translations), legislate a "year of the dog holiday," and ask us to provide "snake/frog meals" in public schools- at tax payers expense.
I would also be uncomfortable with their pushy way of doing business. I won't like it if they insist on closing down Sere Jobe Avenue for them to pray on it.
It may be true that the government did not help to assimilate them but why should the govt. use my tax money to help them assimilate... or fund the leisure/rehab of their numerous "gang forming" children in the name of assimilation?
I would also be really, really pissed off if i'm refused a job for the accidental fact of being a "native Gambian."
Well Turk, i was just playing to be YOU for a minute... a devil's advocate
I know immigration is a very touchy subject, and I'm sincerely not trying to offend anyone. |
"When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty." |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 11:33:05
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well, interesting already.
turk, i think i am most interested, personally, in his interpretation of isalm and its prophet. i thought maybe some here could explain to us lay people why he sees the prophet as he describes, which is clearly a big insult to Muslims. What has he interpreted that you see differently.
Secondly,this is a huge immigration issue and Prince has been honest in his response.
In UK many now feel that immigration is the biggest threat to the british way of life and system.
Becuase a large percentage of the immigrants are Muslim and do not integrate, they are seen to to be the main stumbling block.
Furthermore, the govt. of our days here has effectively cancelled christmas and everything else in case it offends muslims - i am being generalised here - so there is a genuine resentment of the perceived preferential/appeasing treatment that the indigenous here think that the immigrants are getting.
I do not espouse the views of this guy at all, my wife is a muslim gambian immigrant after all, but i think there are issues here that are very relevant to the current situation in the UK.
These things do need to be discussed in order not to marginalise them and breed ignorance and resentment.
I am also personally interested in religions in general and , not knowing the Koran, i wonder how this guy can describe a prophet as a racist paedophile?
Please can people explain where in the text he may have been drawn to such "mis" conclusions as they are hugely insulting and asking for trouble.
Alas, some Islamic people do go around cutting the throats of Dutch anti-islamic people and he must be mad for these coments.thts is his problem.
Ours is to disentangle the mechanics of religious integration and immigration and understanding.
so, lets try.. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 22:29:39
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Lurker, I am gonna try to chime not in particularly to explain Mr. Wilders view about Islam because clearly he is entitled to his view and in as such has clearly stated those. However, I will try to put some of his view on the question of Banu Qurayza to a historical test and perhaps we could all understand how loony he is in making some of his at best, laughable statements.
Mr. Wilders states Muhammad (SAW) "slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza." Without giving a full account of what Banu Qurayza were charged with which led to their execution it is easy to make Muhammad (SAW) a "murderer". Banu Qurayza, were one of the three Jewish tribes who settled in Madinah after the Romans sacked Jerusalem. They came to Madinah to await imminent arrival of a Prophet described in the Old Testament [I will give you the biblical quotations if you so desire]. However when it turned out that that Prophet happened to be non-jewish they rejected him and became his sworn enermy. However, they continued to live in Madinah after Muhammad (SAW) migrated from Makkah under an agreement drawn between them and the Muslims to defend the city from outside attacks and aggression.
Now, during the Battle of the Confederates, Banu Qurayza committed an act of TREASON by breaking that agreement and allying with Confederates (Quraish, Gatafan etc) alliance that came to wipe the growing influence of islam once and for all. When the muslims prevailed Banu Qurayza paid the price for a crime that is purnishable by death in almost all jucidials standards today.
I wish I have the time to go through all the statements he made against islam, but in due course as this debate rolls along in what I hope we could do in a civil and respectable manner, I will chime in again and pick up from where i left off. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 17:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Lurker, I am gonna try to chime not in particularly to explain Mr. Wilders view about Islam because clearly he is entitled to his view and in as such has clearly stated those. However, I will try to put some of his view on the question of Banu Qurayza to a historical test and perhaps we could all understand how loony he is in making some of his at best, laughable statements.
Mr. Wilders states Muhammad (SAW) "slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza." Without giving a full account of what Banu Qurayza were charged with which led to their execution it is easy to make Muhammad (SAW) a "murderer". Banu Qurayza, were one of the three Jewish tribes who settled in Madinah after the Romans sacked Jerusalem. They came to Madinah to await imminent arrival of a Prophet described in the Old Testament [I will give you the biblical quotations if you so desire]. However when it turned out that that Prophet happened to be non-jewish they rejected him and became his sworn enermy. However, they continued to live in Madinah after Muhammad (SAW) migrated from Makkah under an agreement drawn between them and the Muslims to defend the city from outside attacks and aggression.
Now, during the Battle of the Confederates, Banu Qurayza committed an act of TREASON by breaking that agreement and allying with Confederates (Quraish, Gatafan etc) alliance that came to wipe the growing influence of islam once and for all. When the muslims prevailed Banu Qurayza paid the price for a crime that is purnishable by death in almost all jucidials standards today.
I wish I have the time to go through all the statements he made against islam, but in due course as this debate rolls along in what I hope we could do in a civil and respectable manner, I will chime in again and pick up from where i left off.
To continue, clearly the crux of Mr. Wilders rant is squarely focused on the issue of immigration. The growing number of muslims who are immigrating to Europe and establishing roots there is clearly bound to change the demographic outlook of europe. And as such, the cultural identity of Europe is going to change so as to reflect the demographic reality on the ground. Now I believe there are two choices as to how this is going to happen. Either european leaders change these laws and ideals themselves and in so doing have a measure of control and input in these changes or it is will happen through the ballot box. The second option is less palatable in my opinion because the ramifications are going to be far greater.
If we look at the policies of former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on the issue of moving Jewish settlements from the occupied territories we could see that he at least has the forsight in that the changing demographic in Palestine [Israel]. It was getting to a point where it was politically and militarily unsustainable to have a few settlers in the midst of hundreds and thousands of Palistinians. So he advocated for the removal of those settlements and the result is that he is no longer in power.
The United States itself is undergoing what one reknown demographer calls "The Browing of America." In 2042s, Hispanics are going to be in the majority in the United States and by 2050 the minorities of today's United States are going to be the majority. To me it appears Mr. Wildrers is addressing his speech to the wrong audience. The battle over Europe's problems with immigration is not gonna be won in New York or Jerusalem, the battle has already being lost.
I will leave you with a short correspondence between Muhammad (SAW) and Musailama the Liar and I couldn't help but seem very striking resemblances as to where the actual answers lie when it comes to immigration and the fight over resources on this earth.
MUSAILAMA's Letter.
From Musailama, the messenger of God to Muhammad, the messenger of God. Peace be on you. I am prepared to share this mission with you. I shall have (control over) half the land and you shall have the other half. But the Quraish are an aggressive people."
MUHAMMAD's (SAW) Reply:
"In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Compassionate. From Muhammad the Messenger of Allah, to Musailama the imposter. Peace be upon whoever follows the guidance. Allah will bequeath the earth to whosoever of His servants He wishes and the final triumph will be for those who are careful of their duty to Allah."
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"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 18:53:48
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Geert Wilders' head can be seen on Dutch tv several times a day, him being the leader of the most successful opposition party in the Dutch political arena. His party is growing so fast, it is scary.
What he does is come up with a caricature of Islam. As you can see in his Four Seasons speech, he picks out those aspect of Islam who are most 'alien' to non-muslims. He is a populist with a very finely developed nose for what makes the (Dutch) man in the street afraid for the future (do you want more mosques in your neighbourhood, do you want to talk to a bank employee who will only show you her eyes because the rest of her face and body is covered by a burqa, how much taxpayers' money is spent on useless assimilation projects while the people who are supposed to assimilate simply refuse to do such a thing etc. etc.) Why is he so immensely popular with (mostly elderly and lower educated) people in the streets? Because this is what they are truly scared of, they hate to see the Dutch city centers change into 'small Morocco's' (especially the Moroccans have a very bad reputation, crime rate is disproportionally high in that group.
What Wilders wants, is more voters and more power - and he is very good at making himself the centre of attention. For that i admire him and for his courage, he is saying out loud and also in international settings what others think but they do not dare to speak the words for fear of being accused of being 'not politically correct'.
Does that mean i agree to his views? As i said, i think he is making a caricature of Islam - so no, of course not. But to some extent i can understand the fear of the people who vote for him. In that respect, i think Prince made that fear clear with the comparison with Chinese immigrants laying down the law in Serekunda. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 08:38:26
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Lurker and all, there is some truth to what Mr. Wilders has said and written, but there is some untruths and misinformation also.
My general observation however is that, Muslims (Middle Eastern Arabs particularly) in Europe are often a prolific species similar to Hispanics in the U.S. Both Arab (Muslims) in Europe and Hispanics in the U.S. do not have a track record of integration. They often cling onto their communes, speak their native languages, and continue to live the same way they lived back in their countries of origin. Sociological studies in the U.S. have consistently linked the staggering school drop-out rates of Hispanic kids to this failure to assimilate. Their parents, largely uneducated do not speak English at home with their children and are ill-equipped to help with homework or other educational activity. This becomes the beginning of educational marginalization for these kids, large numbers of who eventually drop out...
But assimilation is a hard thing to achieve. Even studies of urban-rural migration in Africa turns out consistent with findings by U.S. sociologists with regards to assimilation. Egyptian rural migrants into Cairo for example have largely been found not to have changed their way of life significanly from the rural life they left behind.
If you go to any department store corporate or government office or services in the U.S. there is an imposing presence of catering to the Spanish-speaking people comparable to the level of pampering to the minority communities in Europe. This situation has prompted some U.S. lawmakers to re-assert the supremacy of English as our national language out of fear of Spanish or Hispanic take-over...
There are many ways, I think, Europe can deal with the overwhelming growth of Muslim populations in their cities and towns, but in doing so they must not become, as in Benjamin Barber's words, tribalists or jihadists seeking segregationist agenda rather than integration as compelled by globalization. Globalization operates at multiple levels. The Western world is largely the beneficiary of economic globalization, but the Third world may be the beneficiary of cultural globalization as evidensed by the apparent take-over of Europe by Arab-speaking Muslim communities who have no interest in embracing European culture.
However, the rapidly expanding populations of either the Muslims in Europe or the Hispanics in the U.S. should not be the greatest cause for concern by itself. What European and U.S. lawmakers and citizens must focus on is limiting the social and or economic policies that support this trend. If we have learned anything from Thomas Malthus, it is that the internal dynamics of populations are such that infinite growth and expansion are impossible. These minority populations that appear to be exploding will eventually, natually taper off...
Another thing to mention is that the Western world must assist the Third world in develoment and aggressively demand democratization. This will help reduce the influx of foreign citizens into the West and maybe even prompt the return of many ... As the Nigerian human geographer, Reuben K. Udo, said of Africa governments, "if you cannot help develop the rural areas, then you might as well prepare the urban areas for receiving more people". This statement might be equally true for the Western world... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 01 Oct 2009 11:09:25 |
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Moe
USA
2326 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 23:10:30
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This is just what i think the problem is Lurker, the fact is most Muslims migrating to Europe find out that they themselves fail to assimilate to Western ideologies ,instead of going to Rome and doing as the roman's their deeply entrenched religious beliefs which have no place in western societies starts becoming a norm.
The fact is they leave their societies and having been used to having your own identity thoroughly confirmed by the society around you, it becomes more of a challenge trying to live in a society where one’s identity is constituted through the realization of the dreams and the fulfillment of the wishes one has.
For the average Muslim the struggle to get their identity affirmed in new surroundings is almost practically impossible due to the restrictions in their religions ,with all these obstacles heir quest to assimilate has been in vein.
As a matter of fact we all know first generation migrants remain strongly in touch with the culture of their land of birth and seem to never wanna give it up yet for the Second and third generation migrants,the issue of not being able to connect with the traditional ways of their parents and not being able to become part of the Western European society, they usually get caught up between two cultures which they can barely identify with.
Due to failing to assimilate and claiming the same birth right as the average european ,they get caught up in fighting what they have heard all their lives as being oppresion from the west and being from the West ,what they can identify with is the universal ideologies of contemporary jihadism being taught to them in every street corner mosque in Europe by Imams failing to realize what the demands of their new society is.
I think the recent actions of british descendants turned terrorist is a true testament to this , The new Jihadist does not speak with an accent,and he has rights.My observations ,Islam is the religion of By-Force and is out to conquer the world ,it teaches exactly that .......................................Peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWzbWInnGx0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI5WoXpmPiM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43fEk9F4wIg&feature=related
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I am Jebel Musa better yet rock of Gibraltar,either or,still a stronghold and a Pillar commanding direction
The GPU wants Me Hunted Down for what I don't know ..... |
Edited by - Moe on 02 Oct 2009 02:58:21 |
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