 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Momodou
Denmark
11641 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2009 : 09:22:08
|
Does anyone know where one can search in the UK for records on the Gambia WWII Legion? My father had been one of the survivors and the article below from the BBC makes me curious to try and find more information on the Gambians who were taken to this war without their consent.
The following is culled from BBC website at:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8201717.stm
Africa's forgotten wartime heroes
British documentary makers Robin Forestier-Walker and Oliver Owen have been tracing Nigerians who fought against the Japanese in Burma during World War II.
On VJ Day, the anniversary of victory over Japan, they tell the veterans' story.
Mohammed was just 16 when he was pressed into British military service in northern Nigeria against his will......
read more at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8201717.stm
|
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
|
|
kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2009 : 16:54:10
|
Momodou
It was a known fact that peeople were forced to fight the Japs in the Gambia. In Banjul for example, it was reported that raids were made at the market for strong and able men to serve the cause of justice whilst they themselves had no justice and rights in their own land.
Its a great irony to liberate a group of people whilst you yourself are under subjugation and illegal rule. That was the paradox of the African soldiers during the second world war and sadly, they were forgotten and not taken care of.
But you see, the same also was true in the Roman Empire during the time of Augustus when slaves fought on the side of the empire to gain their freedom. Atleast they had something to fight for. But for the African soldier, he was conscripted against his will, and nothing to fight for in compensation.
The only good thing that came out of this was that the African was able to understand that after all, we are all men and created as such. It broke the stigmas and barriers. It was the beginning of the end of the Empire beacuse returning veterans demanded rights beacuse they then realsied that even prisoners of war had rights.
Sometimes you have to be carefule of what you wish for yourself.
You will need to search the records of the War Office or perhaps the Archives in London. But dont expect much beacuse these African soldiers were more or less collaterals rather than any useful partners in the struggle for universal human justice.
I have personally searched the National Archives in the Gambia on this topic and you will be suprised if you could get ten pages of dumentation. It was as if they never existed. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
 |
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11641 Posts |
|
|
njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 10:57:44
|
hi Momodou,
there is a Veterans' assocaition here in the gambia. and they would obviously have all the names of the ex-servicemen.
i personally know an old man around here who sometimes wears his medals on certain occassions.
i dont think its just like saying the british didnt do anything for these men, i've seen some cooperation in the news before. the best time to make your enquiry is i think around the time they celebrate the end of the War. |
|
|
|
Momodou
Denmark
11641 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 11:24:29
|
Njucks, it is not only the names of the ex-servicemen I am interested in. My Dad told me some events before he passed away and I want to varify if some of them were recorded somewhere.
By the way there is a remembrance day in November 11th and this is the day when a ceremony is held every year. I believe if there is any help then it came too late for some including my late Dad.
|
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
|
|
|
njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 10:57:45
|
i'm sorry about that.
i agree that on our part we need to do more education about these guys (men and women) who took part in the war from the gambia and africa.
there is also a section in the national musuem but also i saw in a musuem in bakau similar potrays of the events in burma etc.
|
|
|
|
mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 16:33:15
|
This is doing something for nothing! My uncle was among one of them collected from our village, (Allunhare) I remember saying at a time as my aunt was narrating to us about his brother and the others, they come (the colonel master), they just surrounds men at village’s center and said. „You and that are collect to go, not even explain where; my aunt told us they were thinking they’re captured as another slave system and every family member was crying a blood. Some escape but some did not make it. Imaging that these men do know nothing about guns maybe not even our old hunting guns because at that time only special tribes or people were coupled with guns for hunting but this do not make any sense to our masters, all the intension was to save their own men and women. This hurt!
He came back from the war with kind of illness that he never recovered from; it might be any special military injections or even chemical, only the masters and God knows it.
|
|
|
|
toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 16:54:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by njucks
i'm sorry about that.
i agree that on our part we need to do more education about these guys (men and women) who took part in the war from the gambia and africa.
there is also a section in the national musuem but also i saw in a musuem in bakau similar potrays of the events in burma etc.
I personally saw an old man in the Gambia many years ago who was sitting outside a closed price control office,I sat and talked to him for a little and he told me that he had served in the British Army for several years I dont know where but he was bemoaning the fact that he did not have an army pension,which he thought he was entitled to,I told him to write to The Ministry of Defence in the Uk. The next year when I returned to Gambia I again met him in the same place and asked how he had got on,he said that he had had a letter from the UK which stated that he was not entitled to a pension as he had not served long enough.The letter stated that he had however recieved a gratuity from the army when he left.This old man remembered the name of his CO and regiment which helped the Ministry of Defence to reply to his enquiry.At no time did this man say anything about being taken and made to fight against his will,this was my personal experience,These Veterans are now getting towards the end of their lives and must be recorded somewhere,their stories must be facinating,Oral history should be recorded before its too late.Memories of war are horrific and it was only when the late Henry Allingham reached 100 years old that he felt he could recount his experiences in the 1st World War. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
Edited by - toubab1020 on 20 Aug 2009 16:55:49 |
|
|
|
kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 19:53:41
|
Toubab
These people were forced to fight the Japs. Its that simple. Dont try to sugar coat the history. Besides, these peole were under colonial rule and as such were not free people to decide their own destiny.
Like in the words of Nelson Mandela "... only free people can negotiate...". I would only hasten to add that "only free people can volunteer" (Kondorong). The presumption is that for one to volunteer, one must be free and caple without intimidation. For a people who do not even have control of their domestic policies, cannot be "free" enough to volunteer.
In 1937, one of my uncles used to be a trader at the Albert Market in Banjul. The current Gambia High School grounds used to be his cassava farm. He told me this before he died and raids at the market in banjul were very common. It was forced conscription to defend the Empire. May i remind you that interanl rule only came to Gambians after February 18, 1965 or should i say "home rule' as is called in colonial India. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 11:55:46
|
| Kons, how can I answer your post? I was not about in the days before the war,nor was I in Gambia,conscription was of course in the UK and there was very little choice other than to join the services,if your work at home was not essential then you were not exempt.The British Empire relied on its colonies for very many things and did not pay the rate for items or produce,this I would suggest is true of those men who were made soldiers,it should be remembered that at the time that was before the war The Gambia was still a place of total traditional ways,and to have the choice of being paid at a reasonable rate for doing a job would have been a hard thing to refuse.like you I can only rely on what I was told.I like you would welcome the chance to hear from those still alive of how they came to join the the service of the British Empire.I for certain have only this one experience to relate,just as you have only the words of your Uncle,both are true of course but I would very much like to hear from those Veterans still alive who could share their stories of how they were recruited at that time.I personally do not know of any such men. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
|
|
|
kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 19:02:18
|
Toubaba
You are preaching to the choir. I have interviewed very many veterans and attended the Remembrance Day celebrations. This was an area very dear to me. I have families that served and the story is all the same. Forced conscription.
In 1939, Gambia was not a "a place of traditional ways..". Far from it. It was colonised and as such a British colony. You cannot compare them to the British who were conscripted in Britain. They were defending their country when the Germans bombarded London in the "Blitz". So for them, it was a just reaction. But for my old grandfather, toiling his fields and having no understanding of the geography of the world, is not the right person to fight someone else's war. A war they never created nor were attacked. They fought to preserve the Empire that never paid taxes, built any infrastructure in the Gambia.
Infact, by the time the British left Gambia in 1965, the first batch of high school graduates were still in school. They only started building schools mostly in 1956, 9 years before independence. In Botswana or Malawi, my memory is fading; there was only one University graduate when they left.
They were forced to serve and not recruited. To use the word recruit is to assume free will. May i remind you that in 1952, when King George VI died, Gambians were required to wear black bands around their arms for months unending to mourn the death of the King? You find out what treatment they would have been subjected to in 1939.
No wonder, President Roosevelt described Gambia as ".. a hell hole on earth" on his way to Casablanca to attend the Allied Forces meeting during the second world war. The landing strip in Jeswang is long gone and never preserved for students of history to document what happened. They want to make us believe that we never participated in the war and therefore irrelevant. Allied planes landed in Jeshwang for refueling in the North Africa campaign under Major-General Sir Percy Hobart with his Desert Rats regiment.
The official name of the regiment was “The 7th Armoured Division”. They fought in all of North Africa, then to Italy before being recalled to Britain to be part of the Normandy campaign, later moved to Burma to fight the Far East onslaught where many of my grand parents perished with them. At some point Field Marshal Montgomery commanded the soldiers mainly around the Arabian Peninsula.
The Division was disbanded in 1950 and the legacy is carried on by the 7th Armoured Brigade of the Bruitish Army which still has symbol of the rat keeping the tradition of “Desert Rats”
I know my history. You don’t need to talk to the veterans. Talk to me and i will solve your problems.
|
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 19:45:26
|
| Kons my words and your reply "Gambia was not a "a place of traditional ways..". Far from it. and with the next breath you write "But for my old grandfather, toiling his fields and having no understanding of the geography of the world, is not the right person to fight someone else's war. A war they never created nor were attacked. They fought to preserve the Empire that never paid taxes, built any infrastructure in the Gambia." exactly what I wrote,I wonder if you think that Hitler had he taken Gambia would have been good for the country, he was a madman who wanted world domination.I am no expert on history as you are in that you write "I know my history. You don’t need to talk to the veterans. Talk to me and i will solve your problems" Britain had an empire true,but there were countries in Africa who also had empires,how did they treat the people they had conquered, colonised or what other word you wish to use.? The British started building schools only in 1956,How many schools did gambia have before it was colonised ? I write again "a place of total traditional ways" referring to Gambia before colonisation. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
|
|
|
toubab1020
12306 Posts |
|
|
njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 22:09:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
...............,These Veterans are now getting towards the end of their lives and must be recorded somewhere,their stories must be facinating,Oral history should be recorded before its too late.
as in my previous posting i think there is an opportunity for serious education and i think you got it just right.
the remaining veterans from WWII must be found and their stories recorded for the younger generation/future. i wonder if there are any left from WWI.
but we might be jumping the gun here, there is a veterans association and their quite active. that much i know.
i saw some from senegal on senegalses TV years back.
but education is the key. |
|
|
|
toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 23:09:25
|
| I am pleased that you agree,I only wonder if any funding would be available from anyone? ,who is the minister for defence?,is there one? would he have access to funds to get a tape recorder,or better still a video recorder to make this happen,? in order that this part of the history of Gambia can be recorded and seen by following generations,and the men who took part can be recognised.Leaving aside other questions raised in this topic, and just dealing with the remaining men who took part,time is short,and I hope that a record can be made quickly,but I have a bad feeling that as with so many things in Africa talking, discussion,and infighting amongst the stakeholders will win,and the time will be gone forever.The stories of their lives during the war changed with the retelling from generation to generation instead of being the words of the men who took part. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
|
|
|
|
kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 00:59:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
Kons my words and your reply "Gambia was not a "a place of traditional ways..". Far from it. and with the next breath you write "But for my old grandfather, toiling his fields and having no understanding of the geography of the world, is not the right person to fight someone else's war. A war they never created nor were attacked. They fought to preserve the Empire that never paid taxes, built any infrastructure in the Gambia." exactly what I wrote,I wonder if you think that Hitler had he taken Gambia would have been good for the country, he was a madman who wanted world domination.I am no expert on history as you are in that you write "I know my history. You don’t need to talk to the veterans. Talk to me and i will solve your problems" Britain had an empire true,but there were countries in Africa who also had empires,how did they treat the people they had conquered, colonised or what other word you wish to use.? The British started building schools only in 1956,How many schools did gambia have before it was colonised ? I write again "a place of total traditional ways" referring to Gambia before colonisation.
Your quotation above is very appalling o me. Are you insinuating that colonialism was good for Gambia to the extent that you asked how many schools were built before colonialism?
You see what colonialism did was halt Africa's progress. It distorted our development continuum and introduced cultures that were very foreign and unworkable. In the end, we lost our identity. The easiest way to make someone loose his identity and self esteem is to deny him his language. In school, we were punished for speaking our languages by putting on “necklaces” of empty, cattle horns etc. It was commonly called “symbols”. Every student dreaded it and gradually, people began to drift from who they were to an area called the unknown. Today Ali Mazuri calls it the “..the dilemma of an intellectual African…”
May i remind you that before you had Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale etc. Africa had its own institutions of learning. The largest university which is still bigger than many modern universities was in Timbuktu with over then thousand students studying math, astrology, science, algebra etc.
The Chancery was headed by the Haidara family, and their descendants still hold manuscripts of years gone by. Recently, South Africa has pledged to save some of these texts with assistance from UNESCO.
A recent documentary i watched proofed that their basic algebra for secondary schools is today the second year study at a university in France.
How did you think the pyramids were built, if the people had no skills and understanding of geometry and construction? Today, many universities have tried to build another pyramid and have failed to deliver. The evidence is there but it appears they don’t want to admit. By the way, let me tell you that when the British landed in what is today Georgetown( McCarthy), they found a thriving learning institution. The island was then called Morro Kunda, a Mandingo word meaning the settlement of learned scholar. British records never admitted this but fortunately, the French did.
When one's history is written by someone else, they will only write what they want to be heard, and certainly, it was written as though we never contributed anything to civilization.
Let me tell you a little history about the English language: All the words in the English language that have anything to do with pleasure, wealth, comfort etc were derived from French language.. Words like monarch, aristocracy, government, liberty, equality, restaurant, were largely influenced by the Normans. When the Normans invaded England in 1066 at the battle of Hastings, English was not used as the official language and because the nobility, were mainly French, French words were mainly adapted in official correspondences under William the Conqueror. The mistake William did was to allow English to be used as a “ghetto” language which continued to thrive among the masses. Eventually, when the masses revolted, they had their language. This is partly why the Scotts still yearn for their Gaelic language long lost. Its part of a true identity.
The same sentiments will be recounted by the Jews in exile in Babylon in modern day Iraq. The reggae song “ By the Rivers of Babylon” they recount how they could “..sing the Lords song in a strange land….” That was i response to questions they were asked about Yahweh. Every society recognises the need for context and culture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm1g8FFRArc
An African proverb comes to mind. "The tale of a hunter and a lion, will always glorify the hunter"
We are prepare to write our own history and no longer will we accept another perspective other than our won. Like my friends daughter i once asked who discovered America.
I was expecting that she will tell me Christiopher columbus, but she told me that America was never discovered because the indians were already there. That trend in the rewriting of history has already begun and cannot be stopped.
|
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
© 2005-2024 Nijii |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
