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snuggels
960 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 09:40:32
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A friend of mine who I was prepared to sponcer to come to the UK for a holiday applied for the necessary visa.
This was turned down for the reason as listed below. An appeal was lodged with the tribunal in the UK with the applicant’s response to the refusal to which we have now had a reply.
The appeal has been turned down on the grounds that they don’t have family ties in the UK (see below). Forget all the reasons for the initial refusal because the bottom line appears to be if you don’t have family ties in the UK the visa application will be refused.
If that is the case why don’t they state on the application guidance form. They are wasting there time and money in applying.
Application
The Entry Clearance Officer's reasons and supporting evidence
You have applied for entry clearance to visit the United Kingdom. I have carefully considered your application on the basis of your passport, application form and documents that you have provided. You have declared on your application form that the information you have given is complete and true to the best of your knowledge. It has not been necessary to Interview you In order to reach a decision.
1/ Student going to UK now, how come if UNI just starting, visiting older male, friend of family
2/ who has not shown any funds, refuse on just about alt counts Section 41 paragraph (i) requires that you am genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for a limited period as stated by you. Not exceeding (x months. Section 41 (M)
3/ Requires that you Intend to leave the United Kingdom at the end of the period of the visit as stated by you.
4/ You state that you are going to visit a male family friend. You have not stated the family circumstances of this person...
5/ You state that you are presently a student You have shown no evidence of this. You are older(27) than the average age for a student of further education. You wish to travel in November, which according to the Institute Polytechnlque Is not a holiday month.
6/ You have not started a family of your own.
7/ I am not satisfied that you have sufficiently strong ties outside the UK. You have not shown that you. own any property or assets.
8/ You are being fully sponsored by a British person whose relationship to you Is not stated.
9/ You have not shown that you have previously travelled overseas. This is not a reason to refuse in it self out when taken Into account with the other factors, I am not satisfied on the balance of probabilities that you meet the requirements of paragraph 41 (I) as stated above.
Section 41(111) requires that you do not Intend to take employment In the United Kingdom.
10/ As mentioned the family circumstances of your sponsor In the UK has not been mentioned.
11/ There is no photographic or other evidence that you have known him over a period of tlme.
12/ The cost of domestic service In the UK Is unaffordable for the vast majority of UK citizens. This Is not the case for UK citizens In Gambia. Your own economic circumstances would be much Improved by a period of employment In the UK. Your have no personal Income.
13/ You state that you are a student but have not shown evidence of this, or that November Is a holiday month from your studies.
14/ Taking all these factors into account I am not satisfied on the balance of probabilities that you meet the requirements of section 41 (III) as stated) above.
I therefore refuse your application.
REPLIES TO THE ABOVE
1/ As my tuition is paid for privately I am at liberty to stop or start as per my domestic circumstances dictate
2/ All my sponsors' financial statements and proof of identity was produced that he had suffient funds to support me during my stay
3/ My plane ticket clearly showed my departure date in -November and the return date home in December
4/ Family circumstances were not requested in the application However I'm not sure what you mean by this
5/ I supplied the school address email address and phone number and box number
6/ Not relevant
7/ This is not a prerequisite You don't have to have strong ties in or out to just to take a holiday in England
8/ Relationship was stated
9/ Not relevant
10/ Repeated statement see 4 above
11/ This was not requested on the application form Therefore not a requirement
12/ Not relevant
13/ Repeated statement see 5 above
Your decision was unlawful by virtue of section 19B of the Race Relations Act 1976 (c. 74) (discrimination by public authorities); (c) and that the decision Is unlawful under section S of the Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42) (public authority not to act contrary to Human Rights Convention) as being Incompatible with the appellants Convention rights
APPEAL DECISION
1. By Notice of Appel the Appellant
seeks to appeal the Respondent's refusing entry clerence for the purpose of a visit.
2. Te notice of Appeal incoporates the grounds of appealsigned by the Appeallant settingout in full why she wishes to appeal and why she wishes to visit United kingdom.
3. In the decision notice the Respondent pointed out that the Appeallant had stated that she wishes to come to the UK to visit friend for one month and therefore had only limited right of appeal. In the Grouds of Appeal the Appeallant has referred to her friend.She has not given any details as to any family relationshipin UK.It is perfectly clear that purpose of the visit does not include a member of Appellant's family.
4. section 90(1)Nationality , Immigation and Asylum Act 2002 provides that
(1) A person who appelies for entry clearance for the purpose of enentering in UK as a visitor may appeal under section 82(1) against a refusal of entry clearanceonly if the application was made for the purpose of visiting a member of the applican't family.
5. I am satisfieed that the Appellant's intented visit was not for the purpose of visiting a member of the Appelant 's family as set out in The Immigration Appeals (Family visitor)Regulations 2003 .In those circumtances the T ribunal has no juridiction to hear this appeal. Put simply there is no valid appeal to this immigration decision by reason of Section 90 of the 2002 Act . furthemore there is no appealon human rights or race grouds under Section 84(1)(b)and (c)of 2002 Act
DECISION
The appeal is dismissed.
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Edited by - snuggels on 09 Aug 2009 09:43:54 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 11:59:44
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I think it is a lottery and a money making exercise.
With young men the fear is that they wont go back home.
How can you create a counter argument to that? Sadly all of those who have gone before who have not stuck to the conditions of the visa are making it more difficult for the young people of the present day to get a visa.
It seems to get more and more difficult and more complex.
It is also one rule for the rich and one for the poor. 
Poor gambians with sponsors in Uk find it very difficult to prove their incentive for returning to Gambia.
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 12:21:00
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Snuggels, its unfortunate that your friend's application was refused. I was really pissed off when it happened to a friend i invited over.
you don't seem to understand why her application was refused... A quite Sunday permitting, I'll send you a detailed explanation on why her application was refused (based on your post of course).
By the way, thanks for your post the non-political stuff is quite refreshing. |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 12:58:38
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Prince,at last someone who thinks like myself: 
"By the way, thanks for your post the non-political stuff is quite refreshing." 
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 09 Aug 2009 12:59:19 |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 13:03:33
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
I think it is a lottery and a money making exercise.
With young men the fear is that they wont go back home.
How can you create a counter argument to that? Sadly all of those who have gone before who have not stuck to the conditions of the visa are making it more difficult for the young people of the present day to get a visa.
It seems to get more and more difficult and more complex.
It is also one rule for the rich and one for the poor.
Poor gambians with sponsors in Uk find it very difficult to prove their incentive for returning to Gambia.
I am sorry to say that you are probably right,its a way of getting money in from people by way of "fees" and just think of the many people who are employed shuffling all this paper around specialist lawyers typists, researchers, staff at many other government offices,OK Jobs are very good but jobs that are totally non productive and unnecessary are not good. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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snuggels
960 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 14:14:14
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quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
Prince,at last someone who thinks like myself:
"By the way, thanks for your post the non-political stuff is quite refreshing."
All my postings are non political as Im not a political animal and know less of Gambian politics.
So all my threads have been varied some of which as has been pointed out are of no interest. But to me and some they are of interest so thanks for your comments guys.
As you know dought have gathered from previouse threads I do travel a lot to variouse countries during the winter months and the UK cost of a Visa is the most costly I have personaly have come across.. So yes I think its a rip off.
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Edited by - snuggels on 09 Aug 2009 14:16:52 |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 14:37:03
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| I know that you are non political Snuggles, my comments were for Prince who found your posting "refreshing", I tried to save space by putting them in one message. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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snuggels
960 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 15:08:27
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| ok Toubabe So back to topic.What avenues are left maybe the court of human rights strasbourg. Its thought ummm |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 17:00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by snuggels
ok Toubabe So back to topic.What avenues are left maybe the court of human rights strasbourg. Its thought ummm
OK its a thought, but unless you are very rich going that way to law is a non starter, and I think that you would have to exhausted all the other UK courts who could deal with it,get legal aid ,I suppose you might,whichever way you look at it its all about money and lawyers and governments, delaying tactics,so I feel that you may be on a hding to nothing! and by the time any DECISION (they all hate making them!)is made you and I will probably be  |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 17:10:26
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| Not sure if this will be of any help, Snuggels but when I was faced with visa staff not doing their job properly, I got my local MP involved and you'd be surprised how quickly the UK staff in Banjul got their act together! |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 22:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by snuggels
A friend of mine who I was prepared to sponcer to come to the UK for a holiday applied for the necessary visa.
This was turned down for the reason as listed below. An appeal was lodged with the tribunal in the UK with the applicant’s response to the refusal to which we have now had a reply.
The appeal has been turned down on the grounds that they don’t have family ties in the UK (see below). Forget all the reasons for the initial refusal because the bottom line appears to be if you don’t have family ties in the UK the visa application will be refused.
If that is the case why don’t they state on the application guidance form. They are wasting there time and money in applying.
Application
The Entry Clearance Officer's reasons and supporting evidence
You have applied for entry clearance to visit the United Kingdom. I have carefully considered your application on the basis of your passport, application form and documents that you have provided. You have declared on your application form that the information you have given is complete and true to the best of your knowledge. It has not been necessary to Interview you In order to reach a decision.
1/ Student going to UK now, how come if UNI just starting, visiting older male, friend of family
2/ who has not shown any funds, refuse on just about alt counts Section 41 paragraph (i) requires that you am genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for a limited period as stated by you. Not exceeding (x months. Section 41 (M)
3/ Requires that you Intend to leave the United Kingdom at the end of the period of the visit as stated by you.
4/ You state that you are going to visit a male family friend. You have not stated the family circumstances of this person...
5/ You state that you are presently a student You have shown no evidence of this. You are older(27) than the average age for a student of further education. You wish to travel in November, which according to the Institute Polytechnlque Is not a holiday month.
6/ You have not started a family of your own.
7/ I am not satisfied that you have sufficiently strong ties outside the UK. You have not shown that you. own any property or assets.
8/ You are being fully sponsored by a British person whose relationship to you Is not stated.
9/ You have not shown that you have previously travelled overseas. This is not a reason to refuse in it self out when taken Into account with the other factors, I am not satisfied on the balance of probabilities that you meet the requirements of paragraph 41 (I) as stated above.
Section 41(111) requires that you do not Intend to take employment In the United Kingdom.
10/ As mentioned the family circumstances of your sponsor In the UK has not been mentioned.
11/ There is no photographic or other evidence that you have known him over a period of tlme.
12/ The cost of domestic service In the UK Is unaffordable for the vast majority of UK citizens. This Is not the case for UK citizens In Gambia. Your own economic circumstances would be much Improved by a period of employment In the UK. Your have no personal Income.
13/ You state that you are a student but have not shown evidence of this, or that November Is a holiday month from your studies.
14/ Taking all these factors into account I am not satisfied on the balance of probabilities that you meet the requirements of section 41 (III) as stated) above.
I therefore refuse your application.
REPLIES TO THE ABOVE
1/ As my tuition is paid for privately I am at liberty to stop or start as per my domestic circumstances dictate
2/ All my sponsors' financial statements and proof of identity was produced that he had suffient funds to support me during my stay
3/ My plane ticket clearly showed my departure date in -November and the return date home in December
4/ Family circumstances were not requested in the application However I'm not sure what you mean by this
5/ I supplied the school address email address and phone number and box number
6/ Not relevant
7/ This is not a prerequisite You don't have to have strong ties in or out to just to take a holiday in England
8/ Relationship was stated
9/ Not relevant
10/ Repeated statement see 4 above
11/ This was not requested on the application form Therefore not a requirement
12/ Not relevant
13/ Repeated statement see 5 above
Your decision was unlawful by virtue of section 19B of the Race Relations Act 1976 (c. 74) (discrimination by public authorities); (c) and that the decision Is unlawful under section S of the Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42) (public authority not to act contrary to Human Rights Convention) as being Incompatible with the appellants Convention rights
APPEAL DECISION
1. By Notice of Appel the Appellant
seeks to appeal the Respondent's refusing entry clerence for the purpose of a visit.
2. Te notice of Appeal incoporates the grounds of appealsigned by the Appeallant settingout in full why she wishes to appeal and why she wishes to visit United kingdom.
3. In the decision notice the Respondent pointed out that the Appeallant had stated that she wishes to come to the UK to visit friend for one month and therefore had only limited right of appeal. In the Grouds of Appeal the Appeallant has referred to her friend.She has not given any details as to any family relationshipin UK.It is perfectly clear that purpose of the visit does not include a member of Appellant's family.
4. section 90(1)Nationality , Immigation and Asylum Act 2002 provides that
(1) A person who appelies for entry clearance for the purpose of enentering in UK as a visitor may appeal under section 82(1) against a refusal of entry clearanceonly if the application was made for the purpose of visiting a member of the applican't family.
5. I am satisfieed that the Appellant's intented visit was not for the purpose of visiting a member of the Appelant 's family as set out in The Immigration Appeals (Family visitor)Regulations 2003 .In those circumtances the T ribunal has no juridiction to hear this appeal. Put simply there is no valid appeal to this immigration decision by reason of Section 90 of the 2002 Act . furthemore there is no appealon human rights or race grouds under Section 84(1)(b)and (c)of 2002 Act
DECISION
The appeal is dismissed.
It is unfortunate that your friend's visa application was refused. Dealing with government bureaucrats is often a pain. It seem as you don't understand why her application was refused. I'll try to clarify the clearance officer’s decision, since your post is full of difficult jargon that would confuse even our most versatile man of words (Toubab1020)...I'm having a rather quiet Sunday so brace yourself for a long post.
Based on what you've posted, your friend's visa application was initially refused because she failed to convince the clearance officer that she is
1. coming to the UK for the sole purpose of visiting/tourism;
2. that she has sufficient ties to Gambia (her home country). The clearance officer wants her to demonstrate that she has sufficient ties to the Gambia that would COMPEL her to return home at the end of her visit;
3. her appeal was refused because she DOES NOT have the RIGHT to appeal.
Here is an explanation of the above statements:
1. Your friend failed to show that she is ONLY coming to visit the UK for tourism. The clearance officer came to this conclusion based on the fact that your friend did not provide any documentation which shows that she is in school (eg. a certificate of enrollment from her school). Furthermore, the dates on which she wants to visit the UK are inconsistent with her school's academic dates (school starts in September and your friend wants to visit in November- which is in the middle of the academic term). In other words, your friend should be visiting during a holiday, instead of in the middle of the term if she is a genuine student.
The fact that she is 27 yrs old did not help either, because she is way past the school going age in most countries.
2. your friend did not show that she has enough ties to her home country (Gambia), which convinced the clearance officer that she will not return to the Gambia once she gets to the UK. He assumed that she would overstay her visa like most immigrants from "deprived" countries do. Ties to her country could be but are not limited to a steady job, a family, a business, assets, etc.
Those reasons were sufficient grounds to deny her visa application.
Her appeal was rejected because she is ineligible to appeal the clearance officer's decision. A small but very significant change in the law disqualified people without relatives (family) in the UK from appealing against a "visitor's" visa application refusal.
This change in the law was made in 2003 to prevent every Tom, Dick, and Arry from "groundlessly" appealing decisions made by clearance officers. The law was enacted to reduce the excessive appeals, which clogged the immigration department and cost tax payers millions of Pounds. The powers that were could not refuse appeals to people with family members in the UK because it was deemed "unfair" to separate people from their tax paying relatives.
I don't really understand why she appealed for her visa to be granted on racial and/or humanitarian grounds??? Please explain....
Finally, like Kay would say, this is not a legal advise and i am not an attorney. |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 23:27:04
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Prince,what can I say take a bow , I think that you should become a teacher for the Border Police of England,your explaination does you real credit, if such words had been used by the bureaucrats who write this mumbo jumbo crap,then there is no doubt at all that everyone would have understood,and thats it.
Well done indeed,your translation will not make people happy but at least the position is crystal clear, Thanks
And of course like everyone in the UK you have to cover yourself from litigation when you put.
"Finally, like Kay would say, this is not a legal advise and i am not an attorney."
I Dispair, I really do,and now you are going to have to work until you are 70 to get a pension thats worthwhile,the place has gone totally down the pan! |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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snuggels
960 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 00:56:37
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Prince
"1. Your friend failed to show that she is ONLY coming to visit the UK for tourism. The clearance officer came to this conclusion based on the fact that your friend did not provide any documentation which shows that she is in school (eg. a certificate of enrollment from her school). Furthermore, the dates on which she wants to visit the UK are inconsistent with her school's academic dates (school starts in September and your friend wants to visit in November- which is in the middle of the academic term). In other words, your friend should be visiting during a holiday, instead of in the middle of the term if she is a genuine student."
The fact that she is 27 yrs old did not help either, because she is way past the school going age in most countries.
The information asked for was supplied Name of school Email Addy Telephone number Fax Number no where was an enrolment certificate mentioned Also as this was privately funded futher education they were at libity to fit it in with there private life
"2. your friend did not show that she has enough ties to her home country (Gambia), which convinced the clearance officer that she will not return to the Gambia once she gets to the UK. He assumed that she would overstay her visa like most immigrants from "deprived" countries do. Ties to her country could be but are not limited to a steady job, a family, a business, assets, etc."
Those reasons were sufficient grounds to deny her visa application.
Yes I understand that if my friend had kids or a business that would of enhanced the visa application that they would not overstay.
But as I see it does that apply to all the millions of visitors to the uk NO. Discrimination is outlawed so if it applies to Africans then it applies to every body
Her appeal was rejected because she is ineligible to appeal the clearance officer's decision. A small but very significant change in the law disqualified people without relatives (family) in the UK from appealing against a "visitor's" visa application refusal.
I don't really understand why she appealed for her visa to be granted on racial and/or humanitarian grounds??? Please explain....
Yes you are right which i understand technicaly there is no right of appeal. But if you feel the visa officer did not consider the application in full or correctly you can take it to more a senior officer at the Embassy. This was refused and was told if you wish to appeal take it to the visa tribunal in the UK. So this was done on racial grounds
.Your decision was unlawful by virtue of section 19B of the Race Relations Act 1976 (c. 74) (discrimination by public authorities); (c) and that the decision Is unlawful under section S of the Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42) (public authority not to act contrary to Human Rights Convention) as being Incompatible with the appellants Convention rights |
Edited by - snuggels on 10 Aug 2009 01:00:10 |
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 03:16:25
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Snuggels, I was not trying to give my opinion on the matter, I was just struggling to break down some of the jargon in your post. Public officials are some of the hardest bunch to deal with, they are often very arrogant because they know that we need them . You highlighted some very important points though...
"The information asked for was supplied Name of school Email Addy Telephone number Fax Number no where was an enrolment certificate mentioned Also as this was privately funded futher education they were at libity to fit it in with there private life."
You are right, visa application forms do not explicitly state that applicants should provide a certificate of enrollment or a letter from their schools. In spite of this, you should keep in mind that these forms are standardized for applicants from across the globe. It is not tailored to meet the needs of individuals. Hence, the burden is on the applicant and the applicants are asked/encouraged to provide "relevant supporting documents" to prove that they won't overstay their visits or become liabilities to the public. It is up to individual applicants to prove their case, in view of the fact that the clearance officer sees every applicant as a potential immigrant.
The private life intrusion argument will be hard to sell given that clearance officers do not go around asking ordinary Gambians on the streets for private information. They only ask people who want to visit "their country" for private information. Applicants have the discretion to opt out of the privacy intrusion by refusing to apply for visas. The process is similar to when you apply for a job, you give up your DOB and other “similar information.”
"Yes I understand that if my friend had kids or a business that would of enhanced the visa application that they would not overstay.
But as I see it does that apply to all the millions of visitors to the uk NO. Discrimination is outlawed so if it applies to Africans then it applies to every body"
Like Gambiabev said, it is all down to economics. There is a clear economic discrimination of the underprivileged across the globe wanting to visit “the powers,” but i doubt that it has anything to do with race. If you are an African worth a 100k pounds, Her Majesty's government will welcome you with open arms because you are less likely to recourse to public funds.
"his was refused and was told if you wish to appeal take it to the visa tribunal in the UK. So this was done on racial grounds"
The embassy people were just doing what almost all bureaucrats do, which is "passing the buck." Unfortunately, they were just trying to get rid of your friend. It would be very unusual from embassy staff to routinely overrule each other’s decisions because it would build animosity in the office. I doubt they would risk that for the sake of "some potential immigrant."
If you insist on continuing on the racial/human rights track, you will have to initiate a lawsuit in the UK. Strasbourg won't do because the EU's immigration policy is independent of the UK's. It will be an EXTREMELY difficult if not impossible case to build due to some obvious reasons. However, i will gladly give you the names and addresses of lawyers who would be willing to take up your case probably pro bono (for publicity and tax reasons).
I'd suggest that your friend reapply for a visa with new documentation or apply for a under totally different visa category.
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Prince
507 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 03:41:17
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quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
Prince,what can I say take a bow , I think that you should become a teacher for the Border Police of England,your explaination does you real credit, if such words had been used by the bureaucrats who write this mumbo jumbo crap,then there is no doubt at all that everyone would have understood,and thats it.
Well done indeed,your translation will not make people happy but at least the position is crystal clear, Thanks
And of course like everyone in the UK you have to cover yourself from litigation when you put.
"Finally, like Kay would say, this is not a legal advise and i am not an attorney."
I Dispair, I really do,and now you are going to have to work until you are 70 to get a pension thats worthwhile,the place has gone totally down the pan!
I tried to remember that "simple is good." I personally believe that big jargon belong to personal diaries. We have to keep it SIMPLE if we want to communicate with people...
"Well done indeed,your translation will not make people happy but at least the position is crystal clear"
I don't know why people would be unhappy with me when I hardly stated my personal opinion in the post 
The pension age was increased to correct an initial mistake. When the pension plan was created, they did not factor in the fact that people would live longer and be as healthy as today's people (official reason). The unofficial and real reason is; the pension fund will run out of money in the very near future when all the baby bloomers of the 60s retire. |
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snuggels
960 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 03:59:55
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I dont think anyone could take offence at your replies I certainly dont and thank you for your input.
I think it stops here as I have had battles with bureaucrats before so havnt got the time or inclination.
You can beat a dog but you cant beat the system |
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