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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 11:38:02
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| I actually thought about living in Saudi Arabia, but I realized they don't have night clubs there and you can't pop your beer there either ... |
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Momodou
Denmark
11828 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 11:40:23
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I know two Iranians (an Arab and Persian)who both tell me that the choice beween Ahmaddenejad and Mousavi is like choosing between pest and cholera. |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 11:50:06
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Good point I guess Momodou. Although I do not get the comparison well, I do also think that the Iranian electorate is presented with two "evils" and they must choose the better of the two. In Iran the "Street" is far ahead of the "State". I mean the kind and extent of reform the Iranian women and young people are seeking is not likely to be provided by neither the conservative, cleric-backed Ahmadinejad nor the reformist-oriented Mousavi. But the Iranian people have to take what they have, and these are the two candidates they have to choose from.
Even if Mousavi comes to power, there will be continued pressure on him to expand freedoms in Iran. Mousavi is more likely to liberalize and provide more freedoms than Ahmadinejad who I understand has already restricted women's freedom with policies for example that make public-sector employment more inaccessible and polygamy more available. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 23 Jun 2009 11:58:15 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 15:17:55
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It baffles me that people seem to think by electing either Ahmaddenejad or Mousavi Iran would be any different. These two people are not important. They are little fish. The person who really runs Iran is the Ayatollah himself. Unless you get rid of this war mongering man, whose mission is to destroy anyone or anything that does not agree with his ideology, Iran would always be in the gutter.
If Iran is better than Zimbabwe and Kenya, how come they have not figure this out for themselves? At least Kenyans and Zimbabweans know their weak links.
I shall stop here before I am accused again of being anti Islam or racist against Arabs. Unfounded accusations seem to be rampant on this site.
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Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 18:56:28
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Good point I guess Momodou. Although I do not get the comparison well, I do also think that the Iranian electorate is presented with two "evils" and they must choose the better of the two. In Iran the "Street" is far ahead of the "State". I mean the kind and extent of reform the Iranian women and young people are seeking is not likely to be provided by neither the conservative, cleric-backed Ahmadinejad nor the reformist-oriented Mousavi. But the Iranian people have to take what they have, and these are the two candidates they have to choose from.
Even
Kay
I beg to differ. I think many people are watching too much TV these days. Ahmaddenejad was not backed by the clerics in his first bid for office. He is not a cleric himself and not part of the establishment. He gained fame as a popular mayor of Tehran and ran on the issues of corruption against the clerics and was supported by the wider society. That’s how he won his first term.
Musavi, on the other hand, was the brain child of the revolution and was nourished in the revolution. As Prime Minister, his tenure saw no liberal thinking policies and in fact that period is not any better than the first term of Ahmaddenejad.
So something has changed in Iran. Mousavi who is a son of the revolution is not like by the revolutionaries whilst the anti- revolution child has now become the foster child of the establishment. It looks like, down the line, both lost their mission statements and each ended in a camp not originally intended.
Sometimes I don’t understand why all the demonstrators follow Musavi. He is no saint either and less they forget Mousavi was more conservative. I think the old adage is correct: “A drowning man will hang on to a straw.” I think Mousavi’s popularity is not based on any promise of hope and freedom; it’s just a protest against anything and everything. In such a situation, one may only end up between the devil and deep blue sea. My take on this is that, if a more liberal party comes up, Mousavi will be finished. He had an opportunity as Prime Minister then, and delivered nothing. I am hesitant that he will the second round.
It’s more like the World Bank and the IMF. The IMF ended up being a bank whilst the World Bank ended up being the fund. Unintended consequences are a consequence of taking ones eyes off the target.
If one knows the name of one’s destination but does not know how to get there, every road will lead there. The protests are not for Mousavi, but a protest to be different. And because they believe that change in any form will be good, I would recommend that they follow a new man because both candidates have been tested and did not pass the test.
The protests are a search for a leader that never was, and to fill the vacuum, or better still to create one, they had to believe that the one that they saw was an incarnation of their hopes and dreams.
But that is not anything strange. Humans have always run towards their oppressors for salvation. After 200 years of colonialism, Africa and Africans have always looked upto their former colonial masters for development knowing very well that their salvation does not lie there and never will. It must come from within themselves by developing a sense of patriotism and self reliance, convinced that their destinies are in their own hand and be each others keeper.
Iranians must create their own new Joshua, independent of the establishment. Only then will they see true change. Like my Fulani brethren say “MBURU FOFF KO FORINGE” (All breads are made of flour).
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 19:08:43
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Kay
Important thing is 'street' now is motivated to 'demand' and 'make' change 'collectively' at any expense. Iranians already have most ingredience to establish democracy. Their wealth, education level, government tradition, unity in language etc. what they had missing was 'collective intelligence' for change. This has started and i am hoping this will domino effect to get rid of totalitarian regime. Obviously it will take years but at least iranians are on the right direction toward more 'liberal, democratic and secular iran'. This could start the domino effect. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 23 Jun 2009 19:16:32 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 19:13:16
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tamsier
quote:
racist against Arabs
How did arabs come to this? Iranians are not arabs. Arabs are cousins of Africans, iranians are mixed of asian (turks), indo-european (persians, kurdish).
quote:
war mongering man
Sorry, but what war does this guy monger? Are you refering iraq-iran war, or threat to fight against Israel? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 23 Jun 2009 19:37:59 |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 19:24:16
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| And not all Arabs are Muslims either. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 19:52:55
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Kondorong,
Your exposition is highly captivating. Quite impressive so to put it. |
Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 23 Jun 2009 19:54:29 |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 20:02:05
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Karamba
Thanks
I think the media is making us believe that Mousavi is the liberal candidate. Its far from the truth. infact during his time, he never gave the people what they wanted- openess, free speech etc. Its more like having sat to an exams and failed, and after going through the test papers with the examiner, you asked to abe allowed to sit to the same exam.
Opportunity knocks but once.
this is why politicians in all forms must be checked always. They will never yield to the rights of the down trodden and that what seems to be of common sense, is not common in politics. They must always be held accountable.
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 22:29:47
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quote:
Originally posted by kondorong
quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
Good point I guess Momodou. Although I do not get the comparison well, I do also think that the Iranian electorate is presented with two "evils" and they must choose the better of the two. In Iran the "Street" is far ahead of the "State". I mean the kind and extent of reform the Iranian women and young people are seeking is not likely to be provided by neither the conservative, cleric-backed Ahmadinejad nor the reformist-oriented Mousavi. But the Iranian people have to take what they have, and these are the two candidates they have to choose from.
Even
Kay
I beg to differ. I think many people are watching too much TV these days. Ahmaddenejad was not backed by the clerics in his first bid for office. He is not a cleric himself and not part of the establishment. He gained fame as a popular mayor of Tehran and ran on the issues of corruption against the clerics and was supported by the wider society. That’s how he won his first term.
Musavi, on the other hand, was the brain child of the revolution and was nourished in the revolution. As Prime Minister, his tenure saw no liberal thinking policies and in fact that period is not any better than the first term of Ahmaddenejad.
So something has changed in Iran. Mousavi who is a son of the revolution is not like by the revolutionaries whilst the anti- revolution child has now become the foster child of the establishment. It looks like, down the line, both lost their mission statements and each ended in a camp not originally intended.
Sometimes I don’t understand why all the demonstrators follow Musavi. He is no saint either and less they forget Mousavi was more conservative. I think the old adage is correct: “A drowning man will hang on to a straw.” I think Mousavi’s popularity is not based on any promise of hope and freedom; it’s just a protest against anything and everything. In such a situation, one may only end up between the devil and deep blue sea. My take on this is that, if a more liberal party comes up, Mousavi will be finished. He had an opportunity as Prime Minister then, and delivered nothing. I am hesitant that he will the second round.
It’s more like the World Bank and the IMF. The IMF ended up being a bank whilst the World Bank ended up being the fund. Unintended consequences are a consequence of taking ones eyes off the target.
If one knows the name of one’s destination but does not know how to get there, every road will lead there. The protests are not for Mousavi, but a protest to be different. And because they believe that change in any form will be good, I would recommend that they follow a new man because both candidates have been tested and did not pass the test.
The protests are a search for a leader that never was, and to fill the vacuum, or better still to create one, they had to believe that the one that they saw was an incarnation of their hopes and dreams.
But that is not anything strange. Humans have always run towards their oppressors for salvation. After 200 years of colonialism, Africa and Africans have always looked upto their former colonial masters for development knowing very well that their salvation does not lie there and never will. It must come from within themselves by developing a sense of patriotism and self reliance, convinced that their destinies are in their own hand and be each others keeper.
Iranians must create their own new Joshua, independent of the establishment. Only then will they see true change. Like my Fulani brethren say “MBURU FOFF KO FORINGE” (All breads are made of flour).
Kondorong thanks for coming in. I will have to say that media bashing is part of the neo-conservative agenda. Notwithstanding serious scholars and students do not rely on the popular media for opinions and theory.
It is absolutely true that Mousavi was and perhaps still part of the "revolution", but candidates and parties do not remain static. A good example is the Democratic and Republican parties in the U.S. Each of them has gone through a 360 degrees turn over the past decades.
Having said that the reformist agenda either under previous Mousavi rule or under khatami faced enormous difficulties because of their inability to get around the over-powering agenda of the clerics (the H. Ayatollus).
However, let us judge Mousavi for what he stands for today instead of what he was not able to do decades ago. That is the chance Iranians are ready to give him because of what he stands for, and by his speeches and commentaries this is part of what he stands for today:
1. Rule of law
2. fight corruption (lie and deception)
3. fight injustice
4.openness to the West (against Ayatollahs and Ahmadinejad's satan theory of the West)
5. support for the "two state solution" in Israeli/palestinian relations (against Ahmadinejad's "no Israel agenda).
6. Condemns the Hoocaust (against Ahmadinejad's holocaust denying rhetoric).
7. respect for the dignity of all Iranians (against Ahmadinejad who calls his critics 'dust').
The majority of the clerics including the "Supreme Leader" Kim Jong Ayatollah Khomenei have expressed their support of Ahmadinejad because according to them his (conservative and dictatorial)views are more acceptable to them.
In short Mousavi is running on a reform agenda while Ahmadinejad is running on the establishment agenda. Naturally the un-elected, parasitic Ayatollahs will favor the status quo.Their survival depends on the wedging enemity between Iran and the West. They do not want a reform, because a reform will gradually take away their priviledges. their days are simply numbered. The Iranian "State" simply cannot ignore the "Street" this time...
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Edited by - kayjatta on 23 Jun 2009 22:36:12 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 22:39:02
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quote:
1. Rule of law
2. fight corruption (lie and deception)
3. fight injustice
4.openness to the West (against Ayatollahs and Ahmadinejad's satan theory of the West)
5. support for the "two state solution" in Israeli/palestinian relations (against Ahmadinejad's "no Israel agenda).
6. Conedmns the Hoocaust (against Ahmadinejad's holocaust denying rhetoric).
7. respect for the dignity of all Iranians (against Ahmadinejad who calls his critics 'dust').
Mousavi said that!!!!!! Provide reference please. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 23:59:45
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Kay
I am not sur we are talking about the same Mousavi. May be i need to do a lot more research about the man. I will come back time permitting. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2009 : 05:00:01
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Kondo
I think Kay was talking about himself. lol. :)
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2009 : 08:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
quote:
1. Rule of law
2. fight corruption (lie and deception)
3. fight injustice
4.openness to the West (against Ayatollahs and Ahmadinejad's satan theory of the West)
5. support for the "two state solution" in Israeli/palestinian relations (against Ahmadinejad's "no Israel agenda).
6. Conedmns the Hoocaust (against Ahmadinejad's holocaust denying rhetoric).
7. respect for the dignity of all Iranians (against Ahmadinejad who calls his critics 'dust').
Mousavi said that!!!!!! Provide reference please.
Turk, I guess I do not have to quote you Prof. Gause or Wayne White of the Middle East Institute, or even Cherry Monsteshar. I will however leave you with this from wikipedia:
Domestic policies
In his first press conference since the start of Iranian New Year in March 2009, Mousavi stated his policies on how he will govern the country.[21] Among his policies are creation of a free environment for the flow of information and corrections to the national budget.[22] He wants to promote the creation of private, non-governmental TV networks[23] and stop the operation of the "Moral Police".[24] He has spoken about his opposition to massive changes in ministries which he claims is what Ahmadinejad has done. Regarding the Iranian nuclear program, his plan includes reducing the cost by opposing radical approaches while maintaining what he sees as Iran's right.[25]
He has also vowed to review laws that discriminate against women in Iran. He has said that he would seek to disband the so-called morality police force and ensure that Iranian women are treated equally, with the ability to attain financial empowerment and to serve at the highest levels of decision making bodies.[26]]
Foreign policies
Mousavi has directly addressed activating foreign policy to boost national interest by reducing tensions with other nations. This includes negotiating with U.S. President Barack Obama if "his actions are in keeping with his words".[22] He has condemned Ahmadinejad's attitude toward the The Holocaust (namely, that it was a "a myth"), and condemned the killing of Jews in the Holocaust.[25]
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Edited by - kayjatta on 24 Jun 2009 08:26:34 |
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