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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 08:46:11
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Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmaddenejad has spent perhaps too much time pursuing Plutonium and the nuclear bomb, instigating and supporting violence in Iraq (****e militias), Lebanon (Hezbola) and Gaza (Hamas)that he has neglected the domestic agenda in his country. The economy and freedoms were of major concern to Iranians, and Ahmaddenejad's leadership did not do much in tackling any of those concerns.
Not withstanding the Ayatollah Khamenei's ( I do not mean Nyarikangbanna's Ayatollah Sallah okay  )earlier endorsement of Ahmaddenejad's now disputed win, it appears that iran may be now headed for fresh new elections (as opposed to a re-count proposed earlier)as demanded by progressive, tech-savvy Iranians-and they are large a force to reckon with. They are waging a struggle against corruption and electoral fraud in the short run, but in the long run they are actually waging a 'second revolution' for freedom and progress-the very soul of Iran.
Ayatollah Rafsanjani's backing of the reformist movement which contrasts with Khamenei's alleged backing of the conservative Ahmaddenejad is already an early indication of a rift in the mystical world of the Iranian clergy.
While we await the Ayatollah khamenei's speech on Friday for the way forward for Iran, it is almost apparent that Iran will never be the same again. At the end of it all, it is afterall Ahmaddenejad who might be wiped off the map.
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Edited by - kayjatta on 18 Jun 2009 08:51:35 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 10:24:18
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
..........earlier endorsement of Ahmaddenejad's now disputed win, it appears that iran may be now headed for fresh new elections ................as demanded by progressive, tech-savvy Iranians...............
Kay,
you've presented a good collection of ideas typical of the western thinking.
dont you think you need to give credit to Iran for actually giving its citizens the right to vote and political participation!
Compared to many of your ''ALLIES" in the region, people can/have been actually voting in Iran for decades. disputing elections is one thing, actually having the right to vote in the first place is another thing.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 11:17:25
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First of all, Iranians have a legimate reason to have nuke. I support them. The reason I support them is; if the most fascist/racist country have the bomb in the region, one needs to balance the power. If american have it and actually use it, why not iranians. They are more responsible nation for world peace than yankees.
And Iranians are not supporing violance in iraq. Iraqi mess is due to bloody murderers americans and british oil interests. Nothing else.
Iranians are ones of the most intellectually superior nation in the world. Persian civilization, language are great. Anyway, that is another story. But I am with you on this one mr. jatta. I do wish moderates win to election. It is time for change for farsi people. I am hoping there is a new election and this old dude win the election and farsis to join Turks to change the course of history for both Europe and Arab world for better.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 11:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
Kay,
you've presented a good collection of ideas typical of the western thinking.
dont you think you need to give credit to Iran for actually giving its citizens the right to vote and political participation!
Compared to many of your ''ALLIES" in the region, people can/have been actually voting in Iran for decades. disputing elections is one thing, actually having the right to vote in the first place is another thing.
Thanks for having you Njucks. Some time ago I was going to ask about you. Elections in Iran must not be seen as the (Iranian) government's gift to the Iranian people. It is the (God-given) right of the Iranian people and people everywhere...
But Iranians do not only deserve an election, they deserve an election that is free, fair and transparent ... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 18 Jun 2009 11:46:45 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 11:48:21
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
First of all, Iranians have a legimate reason to have nuke. I support them. The reason I support them is; if the most fascist/racist country have the bomb in the region, one needs to balance the power. If american have it and actually use it, why not iranians. They are more responsible nation for world peace than yankees.
And Iranians are not supporing violance in iraq. Iraqi mess is due to bloody murderers americans and british oil interests. Nothing else.
Iranians are ones of the most intellectually superior nation in the world. Persian civilization, language are great. Anyway, that is another story. But I am with you on this one mr. jatta. I do wish moderates win to election. It is time for change for farsi people. I am hoping there is a new election and this old dude win the election and farsis to join Turks to change the course of history for both Europe and Arab world for better.
Turk thanks for "being with me on this ...". Good to have you on too. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 12:16:31
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
................ It is the (God-given) right of the Iranian people and people everywhere...
thnaks Kay. i'm around.
i think you would agree that this GOD-GIVEN right - a primary right, which if you noticed is denied to citizens in the region even in places like Dubai, egypt, Saudi is often not noticed by the rest of world yet i think deserving free and fair elections- a secondary right can be see as a luxury relatively speaking.
i think Iran (and Iranians) should be commended for its democratic values and an example to the region. dont you agree.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 12:21:39
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Not under Ahmaddenejad and his "bomb ambition"  . |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 18:31:13
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| Kay, i thought you were to ask about the dilema of democracy in some third world countries. in the opposition lose they cry foul, and refuse to accept the counts. in kenya,Zimbabwue, Mongolia, and Now Iran. the opposition lost on grounds of past corruption debate held live on Iranian Tv. voters were swayed because the opposition leader couldn't defend himself sufficiently. But typical of the west interfarance, they will always back some one they think will be more usable and discardable. infact it would make any difference who is the president. Iran is also an establshment society were the president do as the instutution dictates. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 08:05:18
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Iran is little bid better than Kenya, Zimbabwe. It has long government tradition/experience. Its people are educated and qualified to integrate to democracy/secularism. There is already demand for democracy in Iran but totaliter regime had been doing good job. But, eventually, they were going to make a mistake.
The situation can't be explain by simply 'west interface'. There had been serious liberal movement in Iran. The prez before Ahmedinejat was moderate too.
I am very optimistic about this. If Iran make transition to democracy/secularism, that is the best thing for Turkey and the region. That is best for Europe and Yankees too. Turkey is already model for Iranians. Together with Azarbaijan, that is an opportunity for advance better political management in Middleeast.
It is not good for Israel as they will not be using Iran for playing victim game.
That is a lesson for 'less than intelligent american polical engineering methodology'; to learn how to advance democracy in middleeast. Democracy must come within the nation naturally. It can't be dicatated.
There are still long way for persians, but it is started. Let me go play scorpions' wind of change. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 08:41:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Santanfara
Kay, i thought you were to ask about the dilema of democracy in some third world countries. in the opposition lose they cry foul, and refuse to accept the counts. in kenya,Zimbabwue, Mongolia, and Now Iran. the opposition lost on grounds of past corruption debate held live on Iranian Tv. voters were swayed because the opposition leader couldn't defend himself sufficiently. But typical of the west interfarance, they will always back some one they think will be more usable and discardable. infact it would make any difference who is the president. Iran is also an establshment society were the president do as the instutution dictates.
This is not the opposition crying foul. This is the Iranian people crying foul. Even the opposition leaders tried to control the crowd by telling people to stay home, they could not. This is the people's struggle, and the U.S. has no part in it. The Obama administration has distanced itself from this matter. It is purely internal. It's time for Ahmaddenijad to go. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2009 : 11:36:44
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It is not only time for Ahmaddinejad to go. It is also time for the Ayatollahs to go. As indicated by recent developments in Tehran.
The continued protests flies straight in the face of Ayatollah Khamenei's 'divine authority' and his theory in his last Friday sermon that the West is behind the protest in Iran. No intelligent Iranian believed that and they continued their protest against "lies and fraud", against his word, against the dictatorship of Ahmaddinejad, and against the brutality of Iranian state militia. The 'sacred' and 'divine' authority of the (unelected) Ayatollahs is being openly challenged by ordinary Iranians, mostly young people, women, and university students. These are the cream of the Iranian society-the future of Iran rests squarely in the hands of these technology astute young men and women. The majority of the protesters appears to be those who often bear the brunt of repression, that is young people, women and minorities.
The Ayatollah's are even divided among themselves, Rafsanjani and a few others supporting the reformist opponent Mousavi while the conservative Khamenei and the rest backing Ahmaddinejad and the establishment. That division alone is a blow to Iran's Islamic theocracy.
Now that "Supreme Leader" (Kim Jong ... oops) Khamenei has ordered the fatal shooting of innocent and peaceful prostesters, he has placed himself further in the wrong side of history. His decision to order the shooting of protesters is purely a political decision and not a religious one. But the most dangerous person could be that who wields both political and religious power simultaneously.
Whatever happens in the days, weeks and months ahead, Iran will never be the same. This is also the beginning of the end of the Ayatollahs ... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 22 Jun 2009 11:42:58 |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2009 : 12:42:46
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| Kay, i agree to your analysis wholeheartedly. BTW, i never knew these religious leaders, the ayatollahs, could marry. I heard Rasfanjani's daughters were arrested. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2009 : 12:48:41
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| They do marry. They also get all of life's good things. News is that Rafsanjani's daughter and other family members were arrested to protect them, but in actual fact it may because Rafsanjani is in bitter disagreement with the "Supreme Leader" Ayatollah Khamenei ... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2009 : 17:44:07
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quote:
The majority of the protesters appears to be those who often bear the brunt of repression, that is young people, women and minorities.
Kayjatta. Not so fast. The iranian society is not divided based on gender, age or minorities. There are as many as conservative women, youth and minorities are both sides. Iranian society is divided by ideologies (moderates and conservatives). For examples 25 % of Turkish Population in Iran equally conservative and moderates. The city Azeri city Tebriz has the same division as Farsi Tehran.
For example, Ali Khamanei (Azeri Turkish), the supreme leader of Iran who is conservative, Mohammad Khatami (half Azeri Turkish), current rock star, Mir Hossein Mousavi are Azeri Turkish. Rafsanjani and AhmediNejat are Farsi (Persian). |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 23 Jun 2009 07:22:28 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 08:29:58
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Turk are you kidding me? Every society is divided (demographically) based on gender, age, ethnicity, economic status, life-style orientation and many more. Iranian society is no exception to these cleavages. However, the existence of this cleavages do not necssarily mean that there will be manifestation of conflict. Conflict inevitably occurs only if the cleavages reinforced one another or each other. For example when lack of education or good employment is disproportionately linked to gender, or when poverty and unemployment is disproportionately associated with age or ethnicity.
It is no secret that women, the young, liberal artists, and gays (whose existence is denied by Ahmadinejad) are largely marginalized in Iran. But one of the biggest cleavages in Iranian society today is perhaps the rift between the educated, liberal, technology-savvy , progressive young people and the older, unelected, parasitic, socially conservative clerics (this species of Ayatollahs. I guess Darwin would called them Homo Ayatollus) who control the national political and economic resources. These two strands of Iranian society represents two pathways for Iran, in my view. The former represents the glorious future of Iran while the later represents Iran's chekered past.
The outcome of this conflict will perhaps be instrumental in transforming the political landscape of the MiddleEast, especially Saudi Arabia ... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2009 : 11:27:34
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No I am not kidding. Have you ever been to any middleeastern society? Have you ever been to Iran? Based on reading some newspaper you sound like an expert on Iran. Khatami, Mousavi, Rafsanjani all deny existence of gay. Persian society has larger conservative and radical youth than moderate. In Turkish society too youth represent more nationalists and radical at the moment. Iranian society is divided based on ideology. Gender, age, ethinicty, economic status are not that significant. You portray Mosavi and hatemi like feminist or gay activists. No they are not. Mousavi was part of Islamic Revolution as a radical. He is still muslim. He still believes in Islamic Revolotion. He is not thinking any different on gays, liberal artists. There are as many as conservatives women beating up demonstrators women.
It is all about moderate version of Islam. If one listen to you, he or she believed that Iran will turn to Sweden. Are you kidding me? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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