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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 20:51:34
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| Debt cancellation very much linked to good governance. If yaya does well this is possible and will free us from bondage and use our meager resources for development just like Zambia is doing |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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LEMON TIME
Afghanistan
1295 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 21:09:29
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| No chance of that happening as far as Yaya is in power. |
There is no god but Allah |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 21:10:38
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| You never know. The man may learn his mistake and once again be humble enough to accept others. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
Edited by - kondorong on 21 Apr 2006 21:11:05 |
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LEMON TIME
Afghanistan
1295 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 21:19:21
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| what Planet am i on now.Kondorong are you on Yaya's herbal JUjus?laugt |
There is no god but Allah |
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taalibeh
Gambia
336 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 21:24:09
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Kondorong, please forget about yaya reforming. The guy is so arrogant he thinks he is the champion of everything. Did you read about his description of the opposition?
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Taalibeh |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 21:57:08
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Taalibeh
I did. Then again he is within his baseline. That is the way he does things. I think he is trying to sacre people and i cannot still believ that there was an attempetd coup. May be i am wrong. When you read their "confessions" they seem too childish to comprehend.
Lemontime
No i am not smoking Junkungs herbs but you neber know. he mightbe hypnotising me through remote control. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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taalibeh
Gambia
336 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 22:25:40
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It has always been my believe that there was no coup. You see kondorong, unless the individual is willing to sit back and take stock of his/her actions and genuinely accepts where mistakes are made and be ready to rectify them, then there is something wrong with that individual.
Something is wrong when one thinks that one is perfect. We all make mistakes but only the good and reasonable ones will accept this.
The Prophet ones accepted that He made a mistake after a conclusion of a Jihad. That was a tangible lesson for every other human being to accept where mistakes are made. Being a president does not mean that you are more intelligent, more straightforward, more honest etc.
jammeh has to understand and accept that there are so many Gambians who supersede him in a lot of aspects. Who does he think he is to say that he will not hand over power unless he is able to use the Gambian oil for Gambians, for Africa and for the whole world. Who told him he is going to live that long?
It is appropriate that he show some humility and be conscious of the reality. jammeh is very brave to be talking in the way he does. UNBELIEVABLE!! |
Taalibeh |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 22:50:59
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''..... We do not want to graduate Dresser Dispensers. We need real doctors.''
Kondorong, i cannot agree with you, and i think this statement is wrong and misleading.our medical students are REAL DOCTORS. what matters is that people pass their exams and meet the criteria to enter the university. how equiped the school is counts but there is a way out, thats all. there are gambians who went to high school in the gambia (over the last 3 decades) with poor facilities and managed to get into some of the best universities in the world. what matters is the opportunity and the grades!!
i'm apolitical in all of this but i think your analysis of the debt situtaion and development in general is one sided. i know you understand how debt works. the EU, WB, IMF dont just throw money to projects. they have their own rules. and whether there is a major/minor tender board is irrelelvant because the rules of the Lender overrides them, for the simple reason thats its not our money. NO one would lend you money to spend on Your terms. if you havent seen the tenders ,it doesnt mean they dont exist. CSE wins all the time, i dont like them either but they are the only ones who have all the equipment on the ground and therefore always bid lowest (less mobilisation costs). whether they build good roads is another thing!
one thing i know and i hope you agree, is where debt money has been spent wisely is the Education Sector. the number of primary and high schools built over the year is to me is a great success. and if i follow your arguments its like saying we shouldn't educate so many people becuase there are no jobs tommorow ???
those who give the money also make sure that the rules are followed. i agree with you that its possible to pay off the debt, Nigeria will become the first country to do so, suprisingly.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4926966.stm
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 00:17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
''..... We do not want to graduate Dresser Dispensers. We need real doctors.''
Kondorong, i cannot agree with you, and i think this statement is wrong and misleading.our medical students are REAL DOCTORS. what matters is that people pass their exams and meet the criteria to enter the university. how equiped the school is counts but there is a way out, thats all. there are gambians who went to high school in the gambia (over the last 3 decades) with poor facilities and managed to get into some of the best universities in the world. what matters is the opportunity and the grades!!
i'm apolitical in all of this but i think your analysis of the debt situtaion and development in general is one sided. i know you understand how debt works. the EU, WB, IMF dont just throw money to projects. they have their own rules. and whether there is a major/minor tender board is irrelelvant because the rules of the Lender overrides them, for the simple reason thats its not our money. NO one would lend you money to spend on Your terms. if you havent seen the tenders ,it doesnt mean they dont exist. CSE wins all the time, i dont like them either but they are the only ones who have all the equipment on the ground and therefore always bid lowest (less mobilisation costs). whether they build good roads is another thing!
one thing i know and i hope you agree, is where debt money has been spent wisely is the Education Sector. the number of primary and high schools built over the year is to me is a great success. and if i follow your arguments its like saying we shouldn't educate so many people becuase there are no jobs tommorow ???
those who give the money also make sure that the rules are followed. i agree with you that its possible to pay off the debt, Nigeria will become the first country to do so, suprisingly.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4926966.stm
Njuks, look at the quote you have chosen from my posting. It said "WE DO NOT WANT TO GRADUATE DRESSER DISPENSERS. WE NEED REAL DOCTORS". Are you not jumping to conclusions. Certainly this statement does not say we have dresser dispensers and please dont put words into my mouth. i can understand some english.
Your statement: "the number of primary and high schools built over the year is to me is a great success. and if i follow your arguments its like saying we shouldn't educate so many people becuase there are no jobs tommorow ???".
I am not against buliding schools but i want quality education. I have worked in Human Resouces for over 10 years and i nkow what i am talking about. I was also a teacher. I thought in 1988 in a remote village in the gambia. Infact right across the school you get monkeys visiting us. I also taught at St. Augustine High School. So ihave seen the best and worst of Gambian education sytem to be able to compare. If you are looking at schools in Banjul, then be ready for a rude awakening. You will need to go round Gambia and you will quickly conclude that we have a crisis in hand.
That half baked students have become the Green Boys ready to maim and kill beacsue that is what is there to do. The system is not building students to be indepenedent of Government and chart a living for themselves but as pawns in the political landscape. By the way a lot of our loans we procure end up going out as deficit in international trade becasue the skilled labour is not within and they have to be paid in hard currencies leading to strain on the local currency. The sudden detioration of the dalasi has something to do with this phenomenon in addition to hoarding and speculation. The Money Shop was a classic example.
Today grade 12 students are no more than a grade six student years back. I want a school not a classroom block.If the foundation of a house is weak, your building is at a threat. May be you should try and give teaching some thought. You will quickly see the difference.
I have to tell you that our Registered Nurses in the Gambia are not comparable to an LPN in the west. I know of many gambian Registered Nurses in UK and America who are struggling for many many years to even pass the LPN level let alone become an Registered Nurse even though by our standards, they are qualified. It is quality based on a sound criteria which counts and not merely conferring title. The ability to do is very relevant. I have seen medical doctors graduating from west african countries who cannot qualify as a Nurses in the West. They become Nurse Aides, what we call in the Gambia an Auxilliary Nurse who are no more than Orderlies. If yaya has confidence in our health delivery system, then his wife will deliver in the Gambia. Even routine medical check up is undertaken overseas. NOT EVEN YAYA HAS CONFIDENCE IN OUR HEALTH SYSTEM. SO DO NOT DEFEND IT BEACUSE YOU WILL BE STANDING ON QUICK SAND.
I want quality. Well will you not then agree with me that if students years back with meagre resurces have managed to go to the best universities in the world not confirm that they had better quality education then. Today there are many schools in the Gambia where for consecutive three years cannot have one student passing the grade 9 exams. I can give you names of schools and you can confirm this on the ground.
You see Njuks lets not sugar coat the problem. Go round the civil service, and any one from grade 9 onwards, have all their children in private schools because they themselves have no confidence in the education system. Even Yaya's daughter is in aprivate school. AStleast in the days of Jawara, his children went to public school at Gambia High. You can do research on that.
You see when you want quality forget about politics. I can understand your situation but you see we have to raise our concerns to improve and not silence them.
Today the rate at which private schools have evolved is so large that you sometimes wonder if the classroom block built by the government did infact improve access. One thing it did improve is access to poor education standard. People are using charcoal in some schools beacuse they cannot afford chalk.
From the secratary of State down at Education ministry, every one has his child in private school. If the education department employees have no confidence, who should. i will bet that you yourself will take your child to a private school. Infact some of them have their own children doing the GCE O'Level and A'Levels that they have told us is unnecessary but yet their kids are doing it. Today everyone is assured of MASS PROMOTION up to grade 9 and then another MASS PROMOTION UP TO GRADE 12. NO PROPER ASSESSMENT. THIS IS WHY WE WILL PRODUCE POOR STANDARDS FOR POLITICAL EXPEDIENCY.
I think you have not been in public service long enough to learn the ropes of the bureacracy.
No. Njuks you can negotiate the terms of your loan if you are sincere. I do not want to get into the principles of negotiation. That topic alone is a one week discussion. Negotiation has certain criteria that must be in place for it to kick start and unfortunately African technocrats have created this realationship where the west borrows their watch and tells them the time.
You see, you are saying that there is no relevance in having the Minor or major Tender Boards. This is core to prudent financial decisoin making and because we are not proud enough of ourselves, then we will grab what ever we are made to believe. I am not suprised by your that statement. That is the way the civil service treats consultants as though they were wizards and have the solutions to our problems. That is why we have buckets at the new aiport to collect water during the rains. We we sacrifice local accountability procedure we are doomed to fail. The World bank and IMF are only interested is the debts being paid and nothing else. Our development is our own problem. THEN AGAIN THAT IS WHY FOR OVER TEN YEARS STATE ACCOUNTS HAVE NOT BEEN AUDITED. I WILL THERFORE NOT BE SUPRISED THAT THIS IS BEING SAID EVEN TODAY. TRANSPARENCY PROBITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY OF THE HEY DAYS OF THE REVOLUTION HAVE DISSIPATED. BY THE WAY, TO SAY THAT WHETHER I HAVE SEEN THE TENDER DOCUMENTS IS IRRELEVANT IS VERY TROUBLING FOR ME. THESE ARE PUBLIC FUNDS AND THE FINANCE ACT WAS CONSTITUTED TO PROTECT AND PREVENT FRAUD. NO WONDER WE HAVE MORE MILLIONAIRS IN THE GAMBIA TODAY THAN ANY TIME BEFORE IN OUR HISTORY WHERE THE AVERAGE MONTHLY SALARY IS US$50.00. YAYA'S SALARY IS US$1000.00. It therefore matters that we all see the process of awarding contracts become more transparent for a progressive Gambia.
I have talked about absorbtive capacity which is too complex for many people. Policy analysis is hardly effective in the Gambia or if it is given the latitude it deserves to make a meaningful impact.
Since you have said that CSE always wins because of mobilisation costs is a non starter. Check the Basse Soma road. It was constructed before i was born and i bet the coastal road will be in dire need of repair in 6 years. The layer of basalt is so small, that it will wear out soon. The road to Kerewan has alrady started signs of trouble in a few years.
I will rest my case since you yourself have said " whether they build good roads is another thing" goes to confim my fears. The difference is i am atleast talking about.
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
Edited by - kondorong on 22 Apr 2006 00:43:31 |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 00:44:38
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| Good night and happy weekend. I am off to bed. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 01:04:55
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 once again i am not convinced by your arguments. it boils down to your word against mine. if you have not seen tender documents i have? if you have not seen gambian nurses working in UK as Nurses i have. i have also seen doctors working as Doctors. i dont agree with your view on consultants because you ignore how you get consultants in the first place!! their services have to be procured. the Major/minor tender board itself states that if there is a conflict the rules of the donor take precedence.
i accept there should be equity in the education system but every parent reserves the right to take their children where they want. its a personal choice. you cant impose that on any one.
your're absolutely right that quality has taken a punch but this is always the case when you increase access to anything.i remember this was the case in the UK when they introduced GCSE. there were arguments that it was easier than the old GCE A-Level. in the gambia before you had 'quality' because the numbers were few, but now you still have those few amongst many. if you restrict the access you deny a lot of people a better chance.
this was the case with the common entrance examinations. hundred of thousands did it but only few thousand went to high school for 'quality ' as you put it. those who did not pass through were not stupid but because there were not enough places!!! it was a Cut-Off Mark not a Pass Mark. the number of seats at the next level determined the % that went through!! |
Edited by - njucks on 22 Apr 2006 01:09:18 |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 01:46:03
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Njuks.
I admire your style. You are really a very seasoned diplomat. I think i can go to sleep since you saw the tender documents but certainly the Public has not. (laugh). Civil servants are in a funny situation in the Gambia.
I met the then President of the World Association of Credit Unions and was lucky to read a book on Science in Africa. There is a confession made by a world bank Consultant which tell me that Consultants are quite deceptive in the Developing Countries. The satandars required in the west are far highre. Majority of the times, the consultants that are brought to Gambia are people who could not funtion in their countries and will be retired if hey go back home. There were many dead woods in the Gambia and mind you they are paid from the donor funds for the country. In effect, consultants are not more than someone who borrow s your watch to tell you the time. Period. Africans respect consultants who come a few days and manage to write 1000 page documents. They only cut and paste. That is why the structural adjustment programmes of the IMF faled woefuly. Ghana was used as the model and today the Cedi is over 10000.00 to a Dollar.
That is why we do not have to expect consultants to perform miracles. I wish i had this book. I will mail it to you. Consultancy is a mafia game you only know about it when you become one. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 02:18:50
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i saw it as a member of the public. i think in general even if it was displayed in the street the general public (majority is not interested). for example all development goes through an EIA which is available at the NEA. most people dont even bother to go there and read the documents, it doesnt interest them. but those who have an interest see them.you can visit the NEA and read any EIA if you want, they wont stop you. try it. when the tender boards sit those who find it interesting can attend! no one will stop you.
we cannot agree because you dont want to accept, i think, how the system works. GG doesnt hire consultants. it wants a project and to pay for it , it borrows the money. the people lending the money then lay down the rules. to make sure the work is done they indicate that it must be a consultant from 'member countries'. i have no problem with consultants because they tender and the borrower chooses. gambians can apply as well. most of the time its the lack of international experience and capacity that rules them out.
now if your're not comfortable with this you must remember that The Gambia is not forced to join the World Bank, IMF or ADB. nor cooperate with the EU. as you said in one of your postings there is no free lunch.
you make it sound as if people are just doing silly things in Africa. its not correct. who would give $30m to a 'consultant with no experience, qualification'. c'on
also the consultants who work in africa are the ones who work all over the world. from major companies. Siemens, PWC, Deloitte, DB etc
if we were to build a $100m power plant today are you saying we shouldnt look for consultants from outside simply out of pride!!
we cannot agree, because i still believe in the system.
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Edited by - njucks on 22 Apr 2006 02:24:39 |
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salimina
253 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 11:49:17
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Njuks and Kondorong, this is a very interesting topic. I wish i have time to contribute. I will revisit this one any time am available.
Kondorong,if all the senior civil servants are taking their kids to the private schools then who are they kidding about the so called real investment in our schools? |
Edited by salimina |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 13:32:31
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hi salimina
please do as it affects us all. Kondorong sees it from a political point of view. looking forward to it |
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