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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 20:14:19
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This problem with the current status will not be resolved. Some background:
- There was no Israel State Entity for almost 2000 years in Palestine Land.
- Most Jews migrated to North America to escape from Europe/Russia even earlier than WWII.
- Jews in Europe was suffering under Catholicism. The problem of Jews was with Christians and most European countries England, Germany, Russia, Italy, and Spain, all over in Europe.
- When British Empire take over Palestine from Ottomans who were protector of Jews against Europeans (As a people of Book, jews had been given special protected status since 1500s as the ottoman empire magnificent Suleyman accepted jews escaping from Spainish/Italian inquisition) British empire found a ‘SOLUTION’ to Europe’s old age problem “JEWISH PROBLEM”. Most Europeans supported/or happy with Hitler’s solution for “JEWISH PROBLEM”. But there were still Jews in Europe. Europeans wanted to get rid of them.
- So British Empire had a genius solution.
- First, it was their duty, the order from God to give ‘promise land’ to chosen people, Jews.
- It was ideal solution, this way they would get rid of “JEWISH PROBLEM” from Europe and export it somewhere else.
- As old fashion, ‘divide and rule’ policy worked well in Kashmir, Africa, creating a Jewish State in the hearth of Middle East, it would be great to create instability in the region full of oil.
- So when Ahmedinejad (don’t come to me and tell me I like him or supporting him) say, “JEWISH PROBLEM is Western problem, it is unfair they brought jews to Middle East to get rid of their problem” he was right.
- So. Our British empire (and its ally US, planned and executed the plan of creating the state of Israel based on their holy and devilish imperialist agenda in the hearth of Muslim Land.
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does 60 rockets being fired onto any random target deserve the response Israel gave? those could have killed lots, but did not. does the intent receive an equal response?or was it out of proportion and a "war-crime"?
The response of Israel is making them a rogue state as they fight against Hamas. How many people Palestinian died in this conflict, 360, how many Israeli died, 5? 10? How many died when Israel attacked Lebanon a few years ago. It looks like when the people with uniform kills it is not a big deal, but the killer is without uniform, it is bloody terrorists.
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how come after all these years of warring, it seems hard to actually know what either side lays down as the basic minimum for peace? maybe , i am in the dark more than others, but i am looking from the objective middle and do not really understand what are the exact demands that each side make to achieve long-lasting peace.
First of all, the view your present is NOT from the objective middle. Inez has pointed out the objective middle and she is right.
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It´s not true that all the west is supporting Israel in this but the politicians who differ in their opinion are having hard time
Not all the west is supporing Israel. Objective middle, ordinary citizen with familiar with some historical background and with heart, compassion, even watching western media would understand the Palestine problem. The problem is politics. This is when you really appreciate quantity vs. quality where many western people do understand Palestinian issue, but politicians, Jewish lobby, media really working very hurt. Especially in USA, Israeli lobby and media dominate the arena to switch the truth. Just do the math. Less than 10 Israeli, more than 360 Palestinians died.
Minimum peace? What peace for Palestinians. Israel has a government, collect tax, they have police, hospitals, schools, they can take their children to day care, ice cream shop, they have their courts, election, they do business, they have opportunities to worry about mortgage, phone bills, internet, surfing, party, vacation. Palestinians has non of them.
It is really no minimum peace. It is status quo. Israel does not want peace that is why they like to make the tension higher. One reason for this is they want to wait. What do the wait? They want to wait the generation who were born before 1948 to die. Why? Because Palestinians who want the return of the refugees who lost their home after 1948 to go back. In 2018 when these Palestinians are 70 years old or older, Israel will have to deal with only children who were born out of Israel.
There are hundreds thousands of Palestinians born in today’s Israel but they were forced to go out of Israel. Ideally, after the conflict, you would want to return to your home. But that is not the case for Palestinians. That is why Israel is equal to apartheid regime. How do you talk about peace when you lose your property, your home and you can’t go back?
Israel can’t let these people to return to their home because, with their children Palestinians would take over the state of Israel when you calculate the population growth.
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is the answer for israel to withdraw from the west bank, destroy its settlemnts, and give up jerusalem?what would the palestinians be expected to do in return ? what are the actual real areas of no concession or refusal of acceptance in principle.?
So what is the solution? No peace for resettlement of the refugee until those refugees dies by 2018.
What are the issues? What do each party wants from each other?
Palestinian want pre 1948 borders. That is not going to happen so they made the concession and they want the return of refugees to their land and properties to Israel. Israel does not accept that because, if these refugees have a right to vote in Israel, they would take over the government in near future.
Palestinians want to a state pre 1967 war. Israel says no. They want to keep some of this land as they have been many Israelis to settle in occupied land. They also like to build this wall bigger than ‘great wall of china’.
Again, Israel does not want peace now, just like they legitimized the land they invade between 1948 war and 1967, they want to legitimize their land claim between 1967 and now based on their famous theory ‘protect Israel against Islamic terrorism’
Palestinians want the Jerusalem. Israel want same. Palestinians made concession to have divided city. Israel says no as they want the whole city to be theirs.
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and can this ever happen when there is state-sponsored anti-israel/ anti-jewish education to children in the broader arab and muslim world.?
You are confused. Anti-jewish education perspective is something Western world term. There is a fine line between anti-jewish and anti-israel. But many western governments are ‘pro-israel’ while keeping their anti-jewish feelings. They are two different things. Muslim’s perspective is more like anti-israel rather than anti-jewish. History proven that anti-jewish is western concept rather than Islamic world.
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when religion is at the heart of all of it?
Well, delivering the ‘promise land’ by the British empire, this political decision by Brits was part of religious reason. Obviously ther are political reasons too. But, this is more than religion for Palestinians. It is about their property, national pride, it is about peace. Palestinians would like to problems like ‘higher taxes, mortgage payment’, ‘ipod phone’, ‘corrective teeth surgery’ etc.
It is media propaganda that conflicts in middle east is Islamic which has different dynamics. May I remind you Arafat and PLO, the fathers of Hamas generation were communist?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 20:25:25
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Can I ask a simple and perhaps naive question?
Where do Jewish people originate from? Do they have a natural homeland?
I have been to many european cities and seen the ghettos. Jewish people arent made welcome in europe as a generalised statement.
I dont condone any Israeli action against Palistines people. It is dreadful.
I really have no idea what the solution is.
Meaningless deaths are terrible whatever the side. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 20:42:56
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Many speculations. They escape from Egypt but it is weird because, egyptions are nubian (african or afro-asiatic), the jews today in Europe or Israel ain't looking right. But hey, Jesus was supposed to be afro-asiatic (looking like ethiopian) but we see blue eyed Jesus all over the world.
I have seen jews in Ethiopia/Eritre and southern Egypt, they are dark skin. There are many Jews in Eastern Europe who look blonde, I have no idea how they end up in Russia. There are Turks who believe in Judaism. So, I am not sure Jewish people today based on race, it is more like religious group with different ethnic groups.
My best friend in Turkey, a Jewish whose family escape from Spain hundreds years ago look more arab/spanish.
Jews now are welcome in Europe with the very intellectual, wealthy people living in Europe under democratic and respectable human rights. That was not reality before.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 20:51:19
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Here is my proposed solution.
1. Jarusalam became city-state like vatican govern by the rotating presidency each year(Iman, Priest, Rabbi).
2. Palestinians have their state based on post 1967 war.
3. Palestine and Israel became the member of EU which will guarantee peace and security.
4. EU/USA/Israel will pay i.e. 10 trillion dollars to the Palestinians who would return to new State Palestine instead of Israel. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 21:11:44
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whilst you have mad world leaders (who are extremists like ahmedinnerjacket saying that Israel needs to be erased from the map, and building nukes for who knows what purpose, it is hard to see any olive branches ever being effective.
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believe that Uganda(or another african state) was once offered as the alternative home for the jews, instead of Palestine ...imagine what the middle east might be like if that had happened..and what east africa might be like, too!!
Quick question. When British Empire wipes off the Palestine from map and with the migration, create the state of Israel? Was it extremism like Ahmedinejat? Seems like demonization of Ahmedinejat works when he tells the truth. But doesn’t he have point that Israel was establish to get rid of Jews from Europe, why Palestinians had to pay the price? Why not create a state in Scotland for Jews? Who give anyone authority to create a Jewish land in Middle East or Africa?
If most of jews living in Europe prior to WWII, why not create a state in Europe? At least Ahmedinejat only speaks about changing the maps. Wipe off Palestine actually happened.
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ps the conspiracy theories have already started that USA , Britain, Egypt , Saudi and Jordan gave a blind eye to these attackes, implicitly desiring them , as they want Hamas out of the way. They perceive Hamas as a total obstruction to any progress and would rather they were gone so they can deal with realists like Abbass.!
What happen to ideals like democracy? Hamas won the election, but people don't recognize the represenation? "realist", Abbas. Hamas can't be got rid off. These kinds of attack will make them even stronger. One must understand middle eastern mentality. These people are willing to die for their cause. This attack will not accomplish antyhing other than deaths and destruction.
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Israeli is doing what it is doing simply because it is backed by the West, same story like the Apartheid regime.Remember that the ANC was once labelled a 'TERRORIST' organisation by the UK and the US because it threaten their interests.
Exactly.
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from one side? do you consider bombing grannies in supermarkets not to be terrorism, irrespective of who you think starts it and who responds to it?
Based on this logic, the state of Israel terrorist too. Like Armstrong’s potato songs. Or Ustinov. Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich. This is a war. The problem is there is unbalance power, Palestinians are more victims than Israel in this war. And the Israel wants the keep the status quo.
It is correct you cannot have peace without Israel, but you can’t have peace without the demands from Palestinians. Abbas does not represent Palestinians, they are mostly group of people who got enormous financial aid from the state of Israel and US to recruit supporter.
The real problem is highlighted by Formby
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the problem is endlessly exacerbated by the Israelis (backed by the vested interests of American military might) who chip away at borders, constantly moving the goalposts, stealing the best and most fertile areas for themselves. When Palestinians try to defend this land, the western propaganda machine cranks up, screaming 'terrorist' but what would any but the weakest do in these conditions?
The military logic of Israeli state did the attack on Palestinians I see as human tragedy. No State should attack on civilians and cause more than 360 deaths in order to punish an organization which is the enemy of Israeli state at the same time, the representing most people in Gaza. This makes Israel as a terrorist state which makes it worse than Hamas because Israel is claims to be democratic government.The state can’t execute people with prejudicial methods.
The common strategy for Israel is; if we hurt civilians, they rebel against their own leadership, i.e. Hamas. The agenda is the death and destruction will make Hamas not to be favored in civilians, this way Abbas more ‘realist’ ( X’s house/farmer slave analogy is great in this context) can be popular.
Israel sells this strategy to people as a struggle against Terrorism. Bush has tried that too. Bush hoped that tough policies on the civilians would cause people not to support radicals. That did not happen. It is not happening in Palestine.
The history has proven my theory. Especially the mentality of Middle Eastern people proves me right. A typical Palestinian is willing to die so no violence by the state will change the mentality.
But again, Israel has hidden agenda. They do not want peace. If there was a peace there will be more support for Palestinians. Israel (or America) love when terrorist does something. Because that will expand their political agenda even further.
Look at USA. After 9/11, they establish in Gulf more, they invade Iraq and its oil, they settle in Afghanistan. It looks like 9/11 helped America to expand their hegemony in the world.
Same with Israel. Jews are always play the ‘victim’ role. Agains, with Hamas is attacking the Israel, same psychology the state of Israel demonstrating. ‘We are the victim of terrorism’. But the reality is they are the one who has their states, they have their nuke, they have their most powerful army in the region, they occupy the Palestine. They don’t have to worry about Palestine refugees. So status quo is good for Israel.
Israel wants Hamas to exist. Because Hamas feeds the state of Israel. Further, Hamas is the reason, Israel can expand and keep the status quo.
But most important, the western government’s tolerance to Israel. So far no resolution form UN condemn Israel for any of his action.
Funny, because many people I talk in western seems they support Palestinians. But it never forces their governments to have same perspective as their people.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 30 Dec 2008 23:39:55 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2008 : 00:12:46
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Some reason Ahmedinejat speeches makes more noise that following:
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JERUSALEM, Feb 29 (Reuters) - Deputy Israeli Defence Minister Matan Vilnai said on Friday the Palestinians would bring on themselves what he called a "bigger holocaust" by stepping up rocket attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip.
"Holocaust" is a term rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi genocide during World War Two. Many Israelis are loathe to countenance using the word to describe other contemporary events.
Israeli air strikes on the coastal territory, controlled by Hamas Islamists, have killed at least 32 Palestinians, including five children, in the past two days.
Israel said it was responding to rocket fire by Gaza militants, which killed one Israeli in the southern border town of Sderot on Wednesday, and it threatened to launch a larger-scale offensive unless the barrage stopped.
"The more Qassam (rocket) fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they (the Palestinians) will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Vilnai told Army Radio.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2008 : 19:39:46
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Well done Turk. this problem is often deliberately misunderstood by westerners because they cannot accept that their position of supporting certain people can be wrong.
the hypocrisy is the same when it come to the nuclear issue, even tough Israel 'has' one.
your distinction of anti-jewish and anti-israeli illustrtates this very well. In Iran, syria, Jordan there are active Jewish communities living everyday lives as iranians etc. No one is wiping them off any planet there.
Iran supports Hamas thats wrong, the US arms and supports Israel thats ok.???
i think with a decling US, the situation will change over time. one Norwegian doctor in Gaza today said that 40% of thoses wounded with women and children. its obvious that the population is being targeted.
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2008 : 22:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by gambiabev
Can I ask a simple and perhaps naive question?
I really have no idea what the solution is.
Meaningless deaths are terrible whatever the side.
Where do Jewish people originate from? Do they have a natural homeland?
I have been to many european cities and seen the ghettos. Jewish people arent made welcome in europe as a generalised statement.
I dont condone any Israeli action against Palistines people. It is dreadful.
Bev,
Perhaps somethimg to help you work things out. Long time ago, Jews settled on the soil of present Israel according religious texts. Later they left (exodus.)
For two thousand years, Jews scattered all around the world ( a well known story.)
When Jews decided going back to The Promised Land, after World War Two the United Nation supported their movement. By 1947 the move was set on course.
Over all the 2000 years, Arabs ( those now in Gaza) have stayed in Israel as custodians of the ancestorial land.
Jews when they began resettling in Israel, they advanced with the ambition of taking the whole land (belonging to them and Arabs alike) and calling it a Jewish country. For Arabs Jews are seen as not just settlers, but agressive invaders.
Some Arabs decided to leave their homes including those from Jerusalem to settle outside. Jews took advantage and expanded their settlements much further.
It is hard to see how far some Arabs will agree to surrender what they consider land of their ancestors. Yet the two will not see eye-to-eye.
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Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 31 Dec 2008 23:51:19 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2009 : 02:51:00
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quote:
the hypocrisy is the same when it come to the nuclear issue, even tough Israel 'has' one.
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you have mad world leaders (who are extremists like ahmedinnerjacket saying that Israel needs to be erased from the map, and building nukes for who knows what purpose, it is hard to see any olive branches ever being effective.
Hypocracy! Of course. Her is the hypocracy. It is wrong to erease Israel from map. But it is ok for british empire to add israel to the 'map'. They created a country from nothing, first they got a land than they even bring people in it in order to create a country that did not exist a few years ago. Reason is religion. its because their bible thinks this 'promise land' should be given to 'chosen people'. Than same people charge other country as religious. Isn't it religious fanatism to execute your foreing policy based on holy molly stuff like 'promise land', 'chosen people'. Where is the secularism? Why did palestine have to pay the price for british's religious motivation.
For the nuke, it is OK israel, the most powerful military presense that occupies not only palestine, also lebanon and syria, in the region to have nuke. Because they are eternal victim of the human history. It is not ok iran to have it to balance israel while the usa and its eternal girl friend UK present in the reqion militarily in all of Iran's neighbours(in afghanistan, iraq, saudi arabia, kuwait ....)
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one Norwegian doctor in Gaza today said that 40% of thoses wounded with women and children. its obvious that the population is being targeted.
well i guess the value of civilian not equal. is one british=one palestine? seems like 400 deaths not big deal because they were killed by 'collateral damage'. To them their life has more value than others. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 02 Jan 2009 02:56:39 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2009 : 09:48:16
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Karamba
Thank you for that explanation. It was as I thought.
So the Jews in Israel are RE settlers. It was decided after the second world war to give them a safe homeland after the persecution they had suffered.
Some Jews resettled, but many made a fresh start in many countries across the world, including the UK.
After the history of the Jewish people it is very difficult to understand why their NATION now becomes an aggressor. Killing innocent people.
Is it just greed over land?
Or is it fear of being attacked? So attack first?
Turk, you speak as if most British people support Israel. The government might, but the majority of people I know DONT. There are many marches and protests organised. We are seeing the news bulletins with the injured women and children. It is disgusting.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2009 : 09:53:36
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This region of land called palestine/Israel belonged to and over-ran (occupied and settled) by several different types of people throughout history. The Jews are not a monolithic group, they are a group of several different ethnicities and races.
It is futile to try to reverse the history and geopolitical boundarries of Palestine/Israel to its pre-1948 status, just as it is futile to try to return Gambia and Senegal (Senegambia) to its pre-colonial era existence or return Liberia to its pre-repartriation ethnic reality. No country's landmass or population in the world has remained the same throughout history.
What makes sense now is to embrace peace and a negotiated settlement of this conflict as laid out by various United Nation resolutions toward a two-state approach.
Palestine, actually Gaza (Gaza = Palestine - West Bank), cannot be compared to Apartheid South Africa becuase while the former has a peaceful avenue to pursue a settlement the later had no such peaceful recourse. Gaza and Iran-backed HAMAS has to come to the realization that they have to live with Israel on the map, and that they have to give up violence and embrace peaceful negotiation in order to win real sympathy and success for their cause... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 02 Jan 2009 09:55:28 |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2009 : 18:13:03
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
. Gaza and Iran-backed HAMAS has to come to the realization that they have to live with Israel on the map, and that they have to give up violence and embrace peaceful negotiation in order to win real sympathy and success for their cause...
Therefore NO SYMPATHY AND SUCCESS FOR THEIR CAUSE Always blame games and stubborness. Why can't HAMAS pursue its political cause; including "RESISTANCE & LIBERATION OF PALESTINE"
Let the GENOCIDE/CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY STOP AND WAR CRIMINALS WIPE OUT OF POLITICS! So far on record on these astrocities included many civil casualties, indiscriminate mass murders, bombing of Islamic University, MOSQUE, hospitals and Palestinian government infrastructures. Cowards flying F16s as bombers and chatty politicians talking nonsense!
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE IN THIS WORLD!"
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kaanibaa
United Kingdom
1169 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2009 : 00:54:49
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| My worry is that with all the rhetoric flying from all corners of this confusion , we find innocent lives perishing uselessly . The creation of the State of Israel is a fact recorded by history , that fact notwithstanding what followed is a total failure on the part of the creators of also creating a social setup which would cater for the settlers as well as for those who where found in situ to wit the Palestinians. A sure way of ensuring that they live together with equal rights , might have been compensation for the land and proper demarcation of limits of expansion or encroachment etc. My finding is that the Israelis had all the support and the Palestinians were left to either accept their fate as losers or fight as they are now doing for a right they should have been accorded from the unset. Now that the milk is spilled , the Israelis are not willing to take any attack by the foe as acceptable but regard them as terrorists, a tag ;for those doomed to be bombed ,even if it means killing little children and women. After all, the women beget those kids and the kids too shall grow to be the fighters against the status quo. Ergo their killing is justifiable, a means to an end. It really is a fight between Goliath and a poor David , except here the ethnicity of Goliath has been reversed, he now is a Jew not a Philistine.I cannot see any end of this war or problems except perhaps if the weaker party accepts defeat which i doubt they would...... |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2009 : 10:46:56
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George Bush spoke out condoning Israels actions. He has misjuged the general feeling AGAIN. In UK there are marches today against the actions.
Israel will take his comments as permission to continue.
SAD AND WRONG. |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2009 : 14:47:03
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Lurks & all
I see that you've been active in posting about the world's grey area -Palestine and Israel. I thank you for sharing the many postings and being consistent on your enlightenment about it. It is a critical matter at hand; one that is costing the world a lot. From a personal point of view, I wish that the Israelis will at once stop their hypocrtical criminal aggression. The same with the intoxicated criminal groups like Hamas. As noted in the many postings, America cannot be clean in the dirt in that area. The same way others arab countries are dirty about the nonsense. The sooner that they stop hypocrisy, the better that this world will shape for us. While the palestinean child or woman is walking with a suicide bomb tied to his/her waist, an Israeli-American is walking with tankers and cluster bombs. Indeed, it is far from peaceful. Who are the loosers? All terrorists can get to hell....ain't we tired of **** now...and for the new year, they better resolute for peace and harmony or else Almighty God mighty as well keep them in agony.
I avoid threading on this because of my limited knowledge about the area.
Let Palestine be!
Let Israeli be!
Let the world be!
Dalton |
"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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