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lurker
509 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 11:46:14
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i wonder how this problem can ever , really be solved.
does 60 rockets being fired onto any random target deserve the response Israel gave? those could have killed lots, but did not. does the intent receive an equal response?or was it out of proportion and a "war-crime"?
how come after all these years of warring, it seems hard to actually know what either side lays down as the basic minimum for peace? maybe , i am in the dark more than others, but i am looking from the objective middle and do not really understand what are the exact demands that each side make to achieve long-lasting peace.
does this now mean that people will start blowing up more civilians in retaliation?
i imagine this will be avenged in the next few days, and would not want to be out in tel aviv for new years eve this year.
these acts will then be avenged etc etc etc.
is the answer for israel to withdraw from the west bank, destroy its settlemnts, and give up jerusalem?what would the palestinians be expected to do in return ? what are the actual real areas of no concession or refusal of acceptance in principle.?
what is the answer that would actually make the palestinians live in peace next to israel?
and can this ever happen when there is state-sponsored anti-israel/ anti-jewish education to children in the broader arab and muslim world.?
what do the israelis and the arabs have to really concede from either side to ever get a real peace?
and is it ever realistically possible , when religion is at the heart of all of it?
very sad day...again..for the hopes of those on both sides who ever raised their expectations.
can any people who know more than i, please try...without prejudice...to explain to those of us who are distant from this war, what are the real crux issues here that cannot be settled.
thank you.
I think this will never end.
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Momodou
Denmark
11739 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 13:54:06
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Lurker, Extremism by all sides is the problem and one wonders if this problem will ever be solved. I think Jerusalem should be the undivided capital for both sides. After all Jews, Muslims and Christians had been coexisting there for centuries before the Second World War.
The solution to the current mistrust could be through youth programs like "Seeds of peace" and Crossing Borders.
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A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 14:20:50
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watching the footage is distressing. i note sky censor the footage, so i watch al-jazeera for the true sights (very sad).
alas, countries like saudi, jordan and egypt try to engage and construct, whereas, it is my belief, that Hamas gets its money and weapons from iran and syria. so , while some try to be pragmatic, others are bent on destruction as the only satisfactory outcome.
Momodou, i have been to jerusalem a few times. they will never share it. too emotive on either side to give up half.
whilst you have mad world leaders (who are extremists like ahmedinnerjacket saying that Israel needs to be erased from the map, and building nukes for who knows what purpose, it is hard to see any olive branches ever being effective.
Even a Fatah member today said that Hamas were stupid for firing their "silly rockets" and putting gaza city at risk of obvious retaliation.
nevertheless, i am sure they will unite in their quest for revenge and many israelis will die in the next few weeks.
and so it goes on.
i believe that Uganda(or another african state) was once offered as the alternative home for the jews, instead of Palestine ...imagine what the middle east might be like if that had happened..and what east africa might be like, too!!
anyway, seriously, one has to admire the peaceable groups who strive amongst the bombs.
ps the conspiracy theories have already started that USA , Britain, Egypt , Saudi and Jordan gave a blind eye to these attackes, implicitly desiring them , as they want Hamas out of the way. They perceive Hamas as a total obstruction to any progress and would rather they were gone so they can deal with realists like Abbass.! |
Edited by - lurker on 27 Dec 2008 14:22:06 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 16:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Momodou
......... Extremism by all sides is the problem ...........
actually, its only from one side. The Israeli response has always been disproportional. from jenin to this. the palestinian are fighting a legitimate struggle for FREEDOM.
when palestinian children throw stones at Israeli soldiers, these stupid soldiers fire back with rubber bullets!!! how do you defend that??
Israeli is doing what it is doing simply because it is backed by the West, same story like the Apartheid regime.Remember that the ANC was once labelled a 'TERRORIST' organisation by the UK and the US because it threaten their interests.
The Security Council passes resolution and Israeli ignores it and nothing happens.
we should never forget that the people of GAZA voted in a FREE and FAIR election for HAMAS. therefore no one has the right force them to change that.
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Edited by - njucks on 27 Dec 2008 16:34:29 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 17:31:35
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from one side? do you consider bombing grannies in supermarkets not to be terrorism, irrespective of who you think starts it and who responds to it?
hamas as a political power might well serve a purpose, but hamas has a clearly
stated,violent aim of destroying israel and using violence to carry out its policy, what chance has any peace got?
sometimes it seems that hamas are the paelstinian's worst enemy. you cannot have peace without israel, but hamas want a peace without israel.
they use iran's weaponry and technical know-how and money to continue their form of terrorism.
if the arab's really want peace with israel, then perhaps hamas is the real enemy to that peace?
nothing is nice about any of this, but hamas seem to be the biggest obstruction to any peace that people seem to desperately want on both sides of the fence.
two states need to exist side by side. cannot happen with hamas's stated objective, can it?
unless they recognise israel, as they expect israel to recognise palestine, there can nver be peace.
others seem willing to talk and try. why not they?
anyway, jerusalem will never divide, so the whole thing cannot end happily..my opinion only.
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 17:51:41
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Lurker,
Jerusalem is central to this conflict. For whatever reasons, Jews want to keep whole of Jerusalem to their chest. Muslims on their part will never want to trade that Mosque Al Aqsa(Dome of the rock)in a life time. Till doomsday, the conflict remains. That is the bitter pill anyone must be ready to swallow. No peace in last decades. No peace in coming decades. There will be hopeful moments of calm but never for longer.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/200812279451509662.html |
Karamba |
Edited by - Karamba on 27 Dec 2008 18:19:28 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 18:27:06
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| alas, karamba, i think you are right and all this is just another messy blot on the middle eastern unsolveable landscape |
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Formby
United Kingdom
246 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 19:50:45
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Whether or not the Jewish people deserve the 'homeland' of Israel, whether or not the two peoples could, given the right circumstances, live harmoniously, the problem is endlessly exacerbated by the Israelis (backed by the vested interests of American military might) who chip away at borders, constantly moving the goalposts, stealing the best and most fertile areas for themselves. When Palestinians try to defend this land, the western propaganda machine cranks up, screaming 'terrorist' but what would any but the weakest do in these conditions?
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 16:23:56
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quote:
Originally posted by lurker
......they use iran's weaponry and technical know-how and money to continue their form of terrorism.
well Lurker i think you are failing to put the Palestinian struggle in its proper perspective.
firstly they are under occupation. and thus they have a right to fight for their freedom. When the German Army occupied France, the French put up the RESISTANCE, which used violence to sabotage german interest/aims and kill German officers. The French response was a legitimate response to the occupation of their country.that was not TERRORISM. looking back no sensible person would condemn the french reaction to occupation.
Regarding who is arming who, you should also not ignore the fact that just as Iran might be arming Hamas as you're try to point out, the US is supplying ''weaponry and technical know-how and money to Israel to continue their form of terrorism''.
and yes, its a War Crime to bomb a civilian area and/or kill civilains especially in Resfuges Camps as was the case in Jenin, no matter who you are targeting. why is no one being tried? i think you know the answer.
its silly, you can be an ethiopian jew or a Russian jew, emigrate to Israel, where you can own land, a house and start a new life, yet the native people whose ancestors have been growing oranges or olives since before Jesus are being denied these same rights!
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Edited by - njucks on 28 Dec 2008 16:31:11 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 17:54:11
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i don't pretend to know too much about it, so i am happy to listen, but it strikes me that despite your allegations of only one side being terrorists in this war , hamas are very much terrorists, which you do not address: rather you press your point about israel, which i have not argued with or discussed as yet.
you obviously see it from their side. i wonder how much you know of the other people who also believe they were pciking olives even before the arabs. their bible says it is their land. so who knows?? i certainly don't, but i do know that it takes two to tango and there are innocent civilians on the israeli side who probably feel exactly as bad about all this as some on the other side.
you can only defend your own point of view, i guess. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2008 : 12:46:33
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| As far as I know there was a truce, and it was Hamas who started the fight. In several occasions Hamas and other Palestinian groups have chosen violence over negotiations. This is what makes it difficult to defend the Hamas position... |
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inez
279 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 09:14:42
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| Just yesterday I heard one swedish former Fn worker to say at national news that if one looks at the map over Palestinian area/Gaza one will understand some reason of this war. He said that Israel settlements are taking so big parts of the area from Palestinians that itīs not possible to have functioning independente state. Palestinians are forced into a corner and desperate, no wonder they put all their hope in Hamas then. The former foreign minister of sweden Anna Lindh said exactly the same thing for years ago, unfortunatly she was murdered and had not enough time to act. Itīs not true that all the west is supporting Israel in this but the politicians who differ in their opinion are having hard time...Israeli occupation should be stopped. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 10:26:13
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
........... This is what makes it difficult to defend the Hamas position...
Kay,
apparently its easier if Gaza is not under blockage. havent you seen the pictures of people digging tunnels to bring AID, food, etc into Gaza. lets state again that Hamas is the legitimately elected respresentative of the palestinian people in Gaza.
both parties are using the same tactics,violence, propaganda etc. however Israel is acting overwhelming with greater force.
even if one is to accept your argument,Hamas is a freedom fighting group, Israel is a State. their responsibilites are not the same. just because Hamas targets civilians doesnt mean Israel should.even Occupying Powers have duties under interational Law. did you see Britain bombing flats in Northern Ireland?
the truth is politicians (+western media) in the West, for historic reasons, are scared of the anti-semitic card being played on them (careers), this is why they are silent and blind to what is happening. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 10:57:45
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Njucks, let's be realistic here. There is a saying that "when peaceful negotiation fails catastrophy comes about". Hamas has announced that it has ended the truce and has since started firing missiles into Israel. Hamas has always insisted that Israel has no right of existence. The question of whether israel responded disproportionately is a tricky one when you deal with a group like Hamas with roots in Iran. Is that an acceptance that Israel should bomb Hamas' Gaza but with restraint? How do you fight a group like Hamas who hide behind civilians and civilian institutions like universities and mosques without inflicting civilian casualties?
Where are the leadership of Hamas? They have all fled into hiding leaving the population to suffer the wrath of Israel. Isn't it time that the Hamas leadership put the interest of the Palestinians first instead of their own? Some of these leaders, their privileges depend on the continuation of this conflict. That is how they get paid, that is how they get funds, that is how they wield power ... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 30 Dec 2008 10:58:14 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 11:57:32
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njucks, if you elect a party whose designated aim is to destroy israel and who bombs their towns indiscriminately, why are you then surprised when the people you hate, bomb and want to wipe off the face of the earth actually retaliate. disproportion may be an issue, but hamas know that when they release the rockets and play on it. kayjatta said many truths above.
even Obama said, "if my my two daughters had to live in such fear, i would want my state to protecdt them and fight the terrorists.."
do you think if a family lived in florida or london or serrekunda and they were being bombed day in and out from a neighbouring land, that it would be unreasonable for thosse states to fight against the rocketeers that hurt their kids?
if you then , as the aggressor, hide your rockets, weapons and arms amongst the very people who voted you in as terrorists with a nihilistic agenda, then of course there will be disproportionate collateral damage, which no-one condones, but is very obvious.
Hamas do not worry about such things. they bomb buses, schools, supermarkets, houses, with no aim at any security or military targets.
lets get some proportion here ourselves , of the actuality.
i think hamas is the biggest stumbling block to peace. so do fatah, egypt, jordan, uk, usa etc. are they all wrong, and hizbollah, iran and syria right?
as for the tunnels...
well, the enormous amounts of explosives, ak 47's. kassam rockets etc...how do they get in to gaza and the west bank? throught the air..no,, by sea, past the israeli navy...no, by land, through passport and immigration at the border...no.
they are smuggled, with food, medicines and everything else through tunnels and any other means. they were bound to be bombed as part of the fight with hamas.
do you accept , that the hamas way means no peace. not ever.
that the way of peace is through dialogue. so israel and hamas both need to be still so that they can get on with it. it is not one-way traffic, with israel as the "only terrorists" as you yourself said. |
Edited by - lurker on 30 Dec 2008 12:10:44 |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 18:10:32
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I do not know much about the problem, but one thing i do know is that in negotiations, one has to give up something to get something. It appears no one seems to loose anything but to to gain more.
Until then, negotiation is impossible. There must willing negotiators. When religion takes center stage, it very difficult to negotiate because religion is not subject to an amendement or a resolution of some sort. Its a Divine injuction beyond man. And beacuse the Divine is unseen, makes it all the more difficult to talk to Him or ask for his adjucation. Until both parties see beyond religion then that area will remain a hot spot till end of time.
In the United States, a man took God to court for taking his youth away. He was accorded due process and his case was heard in court. The only problem was that God did not have an address to be served and as such the Defendant was absent in court. Dont get me wrong i am religious, but there are times when one demands answers only to be confronted by many more.
My understanding is that religion begins where human understanding ends. And because its such, a religious conflict can only have a solution when warring parties are able to come down to the level of human understanding and start arguing on the basis of earthly matters and not on Divine issues.
Its sad that both parties are infact cousins. Both are sons of Abraham (Ismael and Isaac). One would have expected that they will learn to share. If both share the same father, how come both cannot inherit what their father left behind.
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When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. |
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