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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 00:32:46
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quote:
Originally posted by shaka
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So your position have shifted from "Carnegie cannot possibly get justice in the Gambia
when did I say this?
I meant Northfield couldn't/didn't get Justice.
We were,from my humble understandings talking about an employee.
Carnegie can take legal action from here in the UK or anywhere else I assume, without the bigwigs in fear of been thrown into prison and given the runaround.
Whether or not they will be successful who knows.
Like I said the whole thing smacks of underhand dealings and back stabbing just great for the economy NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
See I don't care about the president being made to look a fool,or the company loses because what will the impact be to them
Very little ,life will float along as normal, but I do care about how this affects (Toubab is this the correct use of the verb ) the man in the street. Because you can be rest assured if this does go to court and the Government are found in breech; Governmental funds whether it be from health or Education will be cut to absorb losses nothing from the presidential purse will be forthwith. |
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 01:14:03
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quote:
Originally posted by shaka
Charlie's status in this saga had now shifted from being a pawn(scapegoat as you want to call it) to a virtual criminal by jumping his bail terms and accepting the services of mercenaries hired by Carnegie to engage in an illegal covert operation in a sovereign nation.
Hold on so are you saying an innocent man should have been left to rot just to make some amends over some dodgy dealings?
If the man, as it is claimed was not working for the company when this alleged dealings/fraud/theft took place then, I assume neither was you why dont you take his place in prison?
Hmmmmmmmmm dont tell me that's a ludicrous suggestion.
I totally agree, giving the choice toubab I too know what kind of 'criminal' I would choose.
Incidentally Captain Martin McGowan-Scanlon. who actually runs the firm that helped him escape has been a friend of Northfield for 20 years. I never saw any mention of Carnegie hiring the firm only that they've lost their £250,000 bail money. |
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 15:49:07
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quote:
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Originally posted by Hiz Princess
[quote][i]
Hold on so are you saying an innocent man should have been left to rot just to make some amends over some dodgy dealings?
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That question is best directed at Carnegie. They are in the best position to explain why their man is "left to rot just to make amends....." My position is that Charles Nortfield committed a crime by jumping bail and accepting the services of mercenaries operating on an illegal covert military operation in a sovereign nation.
quote:
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Originally posted by Hiz Princess
If the man, as it is claimed was not working for the company when this alleged dealings/fraud/theft took place then, I assume neither was you why dont you take his place in prison?
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The man had indeed worked for Carnegie for the period in question(between 2006 and Dec 2007). Charlie was employed by Carnegie in Oct 2007. No i wouldn't substitute my innocent position with that of a criminal.
quote:
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Originally posted by Hiz Princess
Hmmmmmmmmm dont tell me that's a ludicrous suggestion
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It is a ludicrous suggestion, you plunker!!
quote:
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Originally posted by Hiz Princess
Incidentally Captain Martin McGowan-Scanlon. who actually runs the firm that helped him escape has been a friend of Northfield for 20 years. I never saw any mention of Carnegie hiring the firm only that they've lost their £250,000 bail money.
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If you believe that then you are as smart as you are gullible. Profile Security Services is not in business on pro bono basis and it would not put the lives of its mercenaries to the bullet for charity. By the way where did you see mentioned that Carnegie "lost their £250,000 bail money"
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 15:56:44
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Charlie Nortfield was not convicted and spending time in Mile Two. He was living in a hotel with sun, sea and Julbrew at his disposal, so i don't know what you are on about.quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
If you were Charlie Shaka, I suspect that you would consider that to be a "virtual criminal " better than spending time in Mile 2 if and when convicted
Consider.
http://observer.gm/africa/gambia/article/2008/8/21/ex-supt-sanyang-dies
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Bodwick
United Kingdom
60 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 16:39:35
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I guess he just had enough of the sun, sea and Julbrew at his hotel and decided a swim across a croc infested river was better than another night spent by the pool or waiting for a ferry.
Good for him. Innocent until proven guilty...
Hey Shaka, the important words from Toubabs post are "if and when convicted" |
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
-- Robert A. Heinlein The Notebooks of Lazarus Long |
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 17:07:41
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Your guess is as good as any. It's not rocket science!! In choosing to jump bail and "swim across croc infested river" had rendered Charlie a criminal. I guess i am speaking English here. Bad for him because the due process of proving him guilty or innocent was not exausted. If Toubab's important words are "if and when convicted" mine are "was not convicted and is not spendinding time in Mile 2". What is so difficult to understand?
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 11:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by shaka
quote:
If you believe that then you are as smart as you are gullible. Profile Security Services is not in business on pro bono basis and it would not put the lives of its mercenaries to the bullet for charity. By the way where did you see mentioned that Carnegie "lost their £250,000 bail money"
Im sure theres a compliment in there somewhere. I see myself as neither.
As for whether or not this was a 'favour'or his friends family and supporters or in fact the company paid for this escape I have no idea but that does not mean I make unfounded assumptions either
The amount of bail money is in the original posting but I found the statement below. As for its loss I am assuming as he has jumped bail the moneys are forfeited or does the judicial system work differently in Gambia.
Carnegie Minerals Plc the AIM listed UK resource company (AIM - CME), is pleased
to announce that Charlie Northfield, a mining engineer from Plymouth has been
released from Mile 2 prison on bail. The bail deposit of US$450,000 has been
secured by Alan Hopkins, MD of Carnegie Minerals.
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS173930+22-Feb-2008+RNS20080222
As for you calling me a plunker
I'm hoping this was a typo and you meant Plonker.Which means a fool.
A Plunker is a depraved sex act which I can assure you I have never partaken in such activity or have the desire to do so!!!!
I still say he was the fall guy theres a bit of information from fair trials on the link below.
Charlie was not an employee of Carnegie Minerals Plc or in The Gambia for much of the period during which crimes are alleged to have been committed.
http://www.fairtrials.net/index.php/cases/spotlight/andrew_charles_charlie_northfield
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 11:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by shaka
Charlie Nortfield was not convicted and spending time in Mile Two. He was living in a hotel with sun, sea and Julbrew at his disposal, so i don't know what you are on about.quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
If you were Charlie Shaka, I suspect that you would consider that to be a "virtual criminal " better than spending time in Mile 2 if and when convicted
Consider.
http://observer.gm/africa/gambia/article/2008/8/21/ex-supt-sanyang-dies
He did spend time mile 2 however there's conflicting stories of how much. There's some open letters printed in the paper the link below might be of intrest
[4) Charlie Northfield, who was jailed, is not the Managing Director of CMG, but only the General Manager. The Managing Director is Alan Hopkins (Father of Sanyang)] Mr. Martin.
We tend to take the view that it did not matter what Charlie's title was. He could have been the Managing Director. He still should not have been lured back to Gambia under false pretenses and detained or imprisoned. If anything were to be seized, it should have been Carnegie/Astron's real assets. And even that will have been extreme reaction in this situation.
http://www.senegambianews.com/article.cfm?articleID=2166
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 22:36:25
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There is no need to latch on to my every typo as if yours is perfect. What is the relevance of a "depraved sex act" to this discussion? You know exactly what i mean, so stick to the issue at hand. By the way i ask where you see mentioned that "Carnegie lost their £250,000 bail money" only because i have never seen any report which suggested that Carnegie paid the bail money until you provided the Reuters article. That is what we do here, share information. I had as well been sympathetic to Charlie's plight until he turned criminal. He had mocked the justice delivery system of the Gambia by jumping bail and violated her(Gambia) right of sovereignty by being a complicit to a plot invade and accepting the services of mercenaries on an illegal mission to the Gambia.
I disagree with Mr Darbo's view that Charlie was "lured back to Gambia under false pretenses". To imply such is to say Charlie is equal to Carnegie. Charlie was sent to the Gambia by Carnegie not the Gambia government. You cannot therefore place the guilty burden of luring Charlie back to the Gambia under false pretenses, on the shoulders of the Gambia government. Beside "luring under false pretense" is one a sided version of Carnegie's. I reserve my judgement until the Gambia government version is put on the table. Charlie was initially detained/imprisoned to help the police in their investigations. Atleast that was the official statement of the Gambia government.
http://archive.thepoint.gm/headlines2773.htm
Nevertheless you have to give it to Mr Darboe for arguing some strong points as an independent concerned citizen of the Gambia. The request for Carnegie's mining license to be published for public scrutiny is a legitimate one as such a move will not hinder/impede/obstruct the due process of any legal case Carnegie might be involved.
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Hiz Princess
United Kingdom
464 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 00:07:55
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I wasn't latching on to every typo,I was clarifying what you meant that's what the relevance was.
I never insulted you by calling you names, not everyone agrees but I have no need to trade insults just the facts.
You asked where I got my information from and have posted various links. I made my opinions based on the information I had read. Where is the basis of your arguments coming from?
Life is never black and white there's plenty of grey areas and that includes the law, in his position I am sure there are many that would take the same desperate steps, even some Gambians have no faith in the Judicial system there.
As for Governments version of events I wait in hope that this will materialise.
As for the official statement why was his passport taken from him if he was only helping with enquiry's and you had the cheek to call me gullible. |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 00:22:51
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There is no need to latch on to my every typo as if yours is perfect
Considering that it was yourself Shaka who threw the insult at Hiz her reply was certainly justified.
Shaka says above
I reserve my judgement until the Gambia government version is put on the table. Charlie was initially detained/imprisoned to help the police in their investigations. Atleast that was the official statement of the Gambia government.
Thats a slight movement in your position then !
Followed by further movement,
Nevertheless you have to give it to Mr Darboe for arguing some strong points as an independent concerned citizen of the Gambia. The request for Carnegie's mining license to be published for public scrutiny is a legitimate one as such a move will not hinder/impede/obstruct the due process of any legal case Carnegie might be involved
And so to bed!. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 18:35:37
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You have insulted me by asking me to take the place of a criminal in Mile 2. Of all the people in the world why did you choose innocent me? All my arguements are based on facts and common sense. Carnegie and Charles Nortfield knew and understand the legal and judicial environment in the Gambia when they chose to invest and work there. They must have found the justice delivery system free and fair to have invested and worked there for so long. Any explaination otherwise lacks merit. I believe the government's version of event would have unfolded with progress of proceedings in court. That was until Carnegie and Charles bolted.
Let this gullible man explain some facts of this saga for you, since it seem there somethings you don't understand. Charlie was innitially detained to help police in there investigations. Charlie and Cargegie were then brought to court charged with "economic crimes and stealing". Charlie was released on bail by the court. Part of the bail term was to surrender his passport to the state. I hope this explains my gullibility.quote:
Originally posted by Hiz Princess
I wasn't latching on to every typo,I was clarifying what you meant that's what the relevance was.
I never insulted you by calling you names, not everyone agrees but I have no need to trade insults just the facts.
You asked where I got my information from and have posted various links. I made my opinions based on the information I had read. Where is the basis of your arguments coming from?
Life is never black and white there's plenty of grey areas and that includes the law, in his position I am sure there are many that would take the same desperate steps, even some Gambians have no faith in the Judicial system there.
As for Governments version of events I wait in hope that this will materialise.
As for the official statement why was his passport taken from him if he was only helping with enquiry's and you had the cheek to call me gullible.
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shaka
996 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 18:50:07
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Can you further dilate on "movement" and "further movement". I told you to start going to bed early but you never listen. Your brain just swicthes off after 11pm, so it is a sleepwalker hacking on that keyboard instead. Ask Santou to get you some "Waraka", it might help.quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
There is no need to latch on to my every typo as if yours is perfect
Considering that it was yourself Shaka who threw the insult at Hiz her reply was certainly justified.
Shaka says above
I reserve my judgement until the Gambia government version is put on the table. Charlie was initially detained/imprisoned to help the police in their investigations. Atleast that was the official statement of the Gambia government.
Thats a slight movement in your position then !
Followed by further movement,
Nevertheless you have to give it to Mr Darboe for arguing some strong points as an independent concerned citizen of the Gambia. The request for Carnegie's mining license to be published for public scrutiny is a legitimate one as such a move will not hinder/impede/obstruct the due process of any legal case Carnegie might be involved
And so to bed!.
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 18:59:56
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It's too much Attaya that's the problem that keeps me awake!
Anyway,
The quoted words that you yourself used explain the movement from your original posting,(A definate shift from your previous stance)
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Nyarikangbanna
United Kingdom
1382 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 20:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiz Princess
I wasn't latching on to every typo,I was clarifying what you meant that's what the relevance was.
I never insulted you by calling you names, not everyone agrees but I have no need to trade insults just the facts.
You asked where I got my information from and have posted various links. I made my opinions based on the information I had read. Where is the basis of your arguments coming from?
Life is never black and white there's plenty of grey areas and that includes the law, in his position I am sure there are many that would take the same desperate steps, even some Gambians have no faith in the Judicial system there.
As for Governments version of events I wait in hope that this will materialise.
As for the official statement why was his passport taken from him if he was only helping with enquiry's and you had the cheek to call me gullible.
Hi Hiz Princess, I was just going through the postings on this topic, and I must admit, the level of knowledge you have exhibited especially around the way the British Government, through the Foriegn and Commonwealth office, operates to protect British interest overseas is superb. Here are few things I would like to add;
1.This security firm would not have even contemplate their actions in the Gambia without clearance from the British Authorities for no Security Firm in the UK has a Government approved lincense to operate as mercenaries overseas.
2. Given that Britain has an Extradition treaty with the Gambia, if there were no genuine concerns about the defendant's [the company's agent] right to a fair trial and personal security, the Company would not have thought it wise to smuggle him out, and this is regardless of what their assessment of the charges preferred against them is since the Gambia Government, through the Home Office, can institute Extradition proceedings against the Director in UK courts, which will undoubtedly be far more costly for the company in legal fees alone, considering that they would [potentially] foot the legal bill of the opposing side [Home Office] should they loose plus their very own, than it would probably cost them to defend their case in Gambian Courts and to pay-off potential levies the court may impose in the event of a guilty verdict.
I think every thing comes down to the quotation from the International Bar Association below;
'The judicial system in the Gambia suffers from neglect, under investment, and a severe lack of resources and infrastructure, resulting from a general deprioritisation of its importance. Whilst the government was supportive of the independence of the judiciary in discussions with the delegation, in practice many of its actions undermined judicial independence and the rule of law, and its overall attitude to the judiciary was of grave concern to the delegation. This has created a climate where the protection of human rights is undermined and the rule of law subverted.'
This view is shared by the British Government. They even advanced it in the case of the scottish Pedeophile who was smuggled out of the Gambia, by officials of the British High Commission, to brush-off calls for his extradition to the Gambia.
If there was an internationally acclaimed robust and independent judiciary in the Gambia, like the one in Ghana, I think the concerned compnay would have realised that smuggling the Director out of the country was not an option. The extradition process would, in that case, still enable the Gambia Government to rightfully lay a hand on him, try him in Gambian courts and even prison him in Mile 2 Prison should he be found guilty. So clearly, the problem lies with our Criminal Justice System, and our government must take responsibility for that. Unless our criminal Justice System is able to earn public confidence, both locally and internationally, this kind of embarrassment will continue to befall us so long as we or our government continue to do business with westerners/western companies particularly those from the big powers, UK & USA. They will never let their citizens to rot in the kind of predication that the local criminal defendant are normally placed in because it is inhumane. And do anybody want to blame them for that? I certainly wouldn't.
The way things are going now, this company could possibly be tempted to file a case in the International commercial Arbitration Court, which sits at the Privy Council, along Downing Street, in London, against the Gambia and claim awesome sum of US Dollars payable by the Gambian Taxpayers as was the case in the Almenta saga. What a joke!
As the saying goes, 'the people will always get a government they deserve'. Our government is inept, our elected leaders are complete flappers and yet, they are the ones we deserve. God save the Gambia', Ameen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Another thing to note is that a British Newspaper, The Daily Telegraph, is reported to have stated that the guy swam through a crocodile infested river to reach safety. I think that is bit embellished as there is no river that runs through our borders much more a crocodile infested one. I think everybody should be at liberty to consider that as a typical British Hyperbole.
Thanks
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I do not oppose unity but I oppose dumb union. |
Edited by - Nyarikangbanna on 08 Sep 2008 22:20:33 |
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